Caves for bolivian rams - rules for spacing

[beastie]

Yestedar I obtained 5 bolivian ram cichlids. They are in a quarantine and will be for few weeks, they are juveniles, 3 or so months if I understood the breeder correctly.
Per my research I will be aiming for a harem, one male, 4 females. The breeder agreed with me to switch males to females when they show their gender. In how many months/what size will that happen aproximatelly? I read 9 or 10 months and 4cm, but the size seems small. they seem like 3cm already to me.

They will go to my south american tank, 120x50x60cm (lxwxh) which has 9 small hatchetfish (marthae), 20 rummynose tetras, 30 ember tetras and 12 sterbai corydoras.
Second question, the caves/hiding spaces in the main tank. Half of the tank is a pile of wood, but ofcourse the corydoras live there. I purchased a ceramic cave, I have a ceramic tunnel (with one closed entrance, not sure if that is good) and a whole coconut with a hole. I will also try to add some plants, glue some to the ceramic things to make them look more natural, the usual.
What should the spacing between these possible hiding spaces be? Should they be out of line of sight? Or like every 40cm. Should the hiding spaces be in corners or something? Are there like a best approach for these?
The front side of the tank, between the wood and the glass is 2-5cm sand gap.

The back side has two echinodorus, stargrass and several juvenile cryptocorynes. I expect some hiding spaces will work best here, but again, depends on the spacing

Thanks for any advice, including a picture of one of the juveniles, keep in mind they were few hours in the tank

 

[nabokovfan87]

On 1/30/2023 at 3:14 AM, beastie said:

What should the spacing between these possible hiding spaces be? Should they be out of line of sight? Or like every 40cm. Should the hiding spaces be in corners or something? Are there like a best approach for these?

Here is Dean's video. Expand that out, one cave in each corner would be best.

 

[knee]

They're sexable at that size actually. Not the easiest but once you're used to it, the differences are very clear. My LFS had juvie bolivian rams come in and I was able to pickout a female. 

I currently have 8 in my 40 breeder and they'll be transferred to a 60 breeder eventually. I noticed that they don't really like caves that much. I created some areas in my scape that resemble a cave and I never saw the rams go in it. They do go behind the stem plants but for the most part, they're always out in front of the tank.

[beastie]

Yes, have to agree. But the corydoras appreciate the hiding place to dart in, so at least something.

They also don't stay at the bottom. I have an anubias at the wood right at the surface and they swim all the way up there and explore the plant. Juveniles are so much fun. Am afraid of the adulthood a bit 🙂

 

 

 

 

[Grin Ghost]

On 1/30/2023 at 12:24 PM, nabokovfan87 said:

Here is Dean's video. Expand that out, one cave in each corner would be best.

 

I believe Cory says the same thing in the video where he breeds kribensis. Position the caves in different parts of the aquarium with the opening away from the rest of the tank, but in a way that you can still keep an eye on them.

 

[beastie]

It is my first time keeping them and I just spent an hour watching th m, i don't see any chin difference, no forehead bumps, not one fish has anal find extending part start of the tail, all of them have colored the first three rails black,... I guess i will wait. Chances of me getting five males are hopefully slim :))

[knee]

On 2/18/2023 at 5:16 AM, beastie said:

It is my first time keeping them and I just spent an hour watching th m, i don't see any chin difference, no forehead bumps, not one fish has anal find extending part start of the tail, all of them have colored the first three rails black,... I guess i will wait. Chances of me getting five males are hopefully slim :))

If you can get clear photos of them I can sex them for you. 

Your first post with the one Ram I would say is female but I'm not sure because it's being blocked by the roots.

Edited February 18, 2023 by knee

[Lennie]

@knee she sent me these before, if it is clear enough. Maybe it gives an idea until she comes up with better ones once she sees your msg!

 

[beastie]

Boy do i suck at photograph 🙂 have maybe two usable, will try again tomorrow

 

[knee]

Here you go. I’m about 95% certain that these are correct 😁

[beastie]

Thank you

If they are all female, that will be fun too :))

[knee]

On 2/19/2023 at 10:10 AM, beastie said:

Thank you

If they are all female, that will be fun too :))

There could still be a male there. If they are all female it will be easier to spot out a male if you need to get one. 
 

Females color up better when there’s a male present 

[beastie]

Hi, so it has been a few months and I feel like two of the rams paired up recently. I have seen some lip locking and I see chasing one of the fish from the left corner all the way to the middle. Luckily  tank is large nad chaser loses steam in the middle. They are still very docile, at feeding time curious and hanging out all five at the same time. Other times they split a bit more, one on the right, one in the middle, one right in the background but two hang out sort of together-ish in the left back corner.

I took two not clear pictures, sorry, I really tried to use focus.

Could someone please check for me? To be honest I do not see a single difference between any of these fish. @knee perhaps you could help me out again

Thanks

 

[beastie]

I guess it doesnt really matter what sex they are, since they are both guarding a clump of wiggling somethings that must be eggs. At the foot of the plant root, next to a stone...no flat surface, no cave, no nothing. A private corner though

https://youtube.com/shorts/W5-6vRcegOc

 

Now what do I do. I started a bbs hatch and fed my microworms cultures some yeast to get them going. I also will do a careful water change, I planned a big one because my rummynose tetra died, but it is entirely possible they killed her if she was too nosy. I will do a gravel vac but at the other side of the tank and only 30% water change, to not mess the chemistry too much. I am super excited...

 

[Lennie]

@Guppysnail @Fish Folk @DiscusLover any ideas guys?

[nabokovfan87]

On 5/14/2023 at 12:52 PM, beastie said:

 

 

Is this all the same fish?  Looks female to me.  The lower fin looks to be curved edge as opposed to sharp, no bump on the head, and you don't have a very big spike on the dorsal third spine, and no tail rays either.

 

 

On 5/15/2023 at 12:35 AM, beastie said:

Could be fry, might even just be eggs.  It might've gotten pushed off of a rock too.  Hopefully someone who has bred the rams previously can chime in. 

[Fish Folk]

On 5/15/2023 at 3:35 AM, beastie said:

I guess it doesnt really matter what sex they are, since they are both guarding a clump of wiggling somethings that must be eggs. At the foot of the plant root, next to a stone...no flat surface, no cave, no nothing. A private corner though

https://youtube.com/shorts/W5-6vRcegOc

 

Now what do I do. I started a bbs hatch and fed my microworms cultures some yeast to get them going. I also will do a careful water change, I planned a big one because my rummynose tetra died, but it is entirely possible they killed her if she was too nosy. I will do a gravel vac but at the other side of the tank and only 30% water change, to not mess the chemistry too much. I am super excited...

 

Congratulations! You’ve got wrigglers. It is possible that your B-Rams will be good parents. Beware tetras. They’ll swoop in like falcons for a kill.

I’ve only bred G-Rams. Never tried Bolivians. Spawning plan is similar. Caves are not necessary, just privacy. B-Rams are difficult to sex. Female has a wider tube when visible, and a wider abdomen when carrying eggs.

@beastie try to get these micro worms if you can…

 

[beastie]

On 5/15/2023 at 1:36 PM, Fish Folk said:

@beastie try to get these micro worms if you can…

 

I have two jars of walter worms and one of microworms, one culture was started on thursday, so should be all a-ok. I feed them to my indostomus paradoxus, so I know how tiny they are! 🙂 

BTW i had to remove my large nerite, it was barreling towards the wiggling clutch and the poor fish tried to move it. The nerite is 5 years old and 3 cm all around so no chance, but I moved it to another tank, to give the fish a break and give them time to guard. They are too busy with sterbai, that dare to mind their own business in their vicinity. But the rummynose and embers will most likely be the fry downfall. Will see, but I dont want to get my hopes up

[beastie]

I wonder if I should add a clump of moss from other tank here to help them out

The fry is near the plant root next to the cave and once it also was next to the roots near the right side glass

 

[beastie]

I put the moss in, I keep checking the babies, momma b-ram is super annoyed with me. I saw two started free swimming, which didnt sit well with her, she immediatelly took them and spit them back to the wiggling clump.

I put two pre-soaked leaves near to them, for shelter and maybe munching. I will try feeding microworms in the afternoon, will see if they accept.

Excited!!

 

Edited May 17, 2023 by beastie

[beastie]

Followup on this topic.

Bolivian rams have zero interest in caves, coconuts, tubes, wood, shelter or frankly anything.

Super outgoing. Egg laying happens on stones but in90% of cases on a dried leaves added to the tank. They are the preferred place to lay on.

Eggs will be moved to a hole dug up in a root system near any large plants. Echinodorus, crypts, stargrass, anything.

I had like 15 hatchings in the six months i have had them and the longest the fry survived was two weeks.

[anewbie]

Tetra don't really 'kill' frys - they just swallow them whole 😉

 

I think this was covered in the thread but rams aren't really cave loving dwarf cichild though there are many species that do want caves or better crevices they can defend - and it is usually the female portion of a polygamous species that like caves as the male tends to roam and guard the full territory. This is speculation but I think most pairing species don't really use caves since both the male and female guard the wider territory as well as the frys.