Need help cycling 40 gallon tank

[Tanner Fish lover]

Hi all, this is my first time posting here. let me get straight to the point.

I have a 40 gallon tank that i have been trying to cycle for 2 months now. I first tried a fishless cycle and got no where. I then introduced 2, 5 inch ranchu goldfish. the ammonia spiked and i removed the fish. i added fritz zyme 7 beneficial bacteria. it seemed to work, the ammonia went to zero. i reintroduced the 2 ranchu. the ammonia went up to 0.25 and stayed there for 2 days, then it went up to 0.50 and i removed the fish. it has hovered between 0.50 and 0.25 for three days now. I checked for nitrites and found zero. I checked for nitrates and found it to be 160 ppm, it could be higher as my test kit doesn't go higher than 160 ppm. I checked my ph and its at 6, so very acidic and ive ordered crushed coral to buffer. is it possible that the ph is preventing the bacteria from establishing enough to handle the ammonia? yet i have high nitrates so the cycle should be complete and working? any thoughts or advice would be helpful, thank you.

[jwcarlson]

Low pH is absolutely a factor.  At some point you basically "can't" cycle a tank below a certain pH (around 5.5, I think?).  Don't quote me on that as my water is 8.3 so I have no experience with low pH water.

Not all of the bacterial develops at the same rate and certain concentrations of the bacterias' "food" (ammonia or nitrites) actually makes it so they cannot grow.  So sometimes it's a waiting game and sometimes there's too much working against the bacterial growth and it never really takes off.  I'd start changing some water to get the nitrates down as that's sky high.  I'd be suspicious of the zero nitrites.  What kit are you using?  API?

 

Additionally, you should check your tap water independently.  Know also that certain test kits pick up ammonia when using Prime (or maybe other dechlorinators as well?).  Though you didn't mention any water changing, so maybe that's not a concern here.

[Tanner Fish lover]

thank you for replying!

I am using Api fresh water master test kit. I thought the zero nitrites was odd as well. Ive tested for nitrites two times and it was zero both times. I hope its the ph thats causing the problem. my ph might be lower than 6 as my test kit doesn't go lower than 6.0

I did check my tap water this morning and found the ph to be higher, but it was still 6 something, not 7.

[Rube_Goldfish]

Leave your tap water out for 24 hours or so and then test it. Because of CO2 off-gassing, most tap water has a tendency to rise in pH over time. (Ideally you'd aerate the tap water during those 24 hours but even just waiting is better than nothing.)

Also, what substrate do you have? Many aquasoils and some other substrates will pull down pH and/or KH (which in turn would allow the pH to fall). Do you happen to have a KH test kit? Unfortunately, it's not included in the API master test kit.

Edited to add: oh, and some aquasoils give off ammonia in the beginning, in some cases a considerable amount.

Edited December 30, 2022 by Rube_Goldfish
Added bit about some aquasoils giving off ammonia

[jwcarlson]

If it's still in the 6s it probably won't shift much, but the advice above is good to aerate and see what it looks like after 24 hours.  Mine shifts from 7 to 8.3.

[Rube_Goldfish]

Yeah, if it's 6.0 or less in the tank, and higher than that immediately out of the tap, it's not really the cause of the problem, but we might as well get the most accurate picture we can.

The other option, if you can dedicate the time and feel comfortable trying, is to do a fish-in cycle with these goldfish. Lightly feed, test every day (maybe twice a day, as goldfish are famously messy) and be prepared to do lots of water changes according to what those tests show, but they'd eventually get that tank cycled for you.

[Schuyler]

What's your KH like in the tank?

Check out this article and see if it helps:

https://aquariumscience.org/index.php/4-11-tank-syndromes/

[nabokovfan87]

On 12/29/2022 at 11:39 AM, Tanner Fish lover said:

I checked my ph and its at 6, so very acidic and ive ordered crushed coral to buffer. is it possible that the ph is preventing the bacteria from establishing enough to handle the ammonia? yet i have high nitrates so the cycle should be complete and working? any thoughts or advice would be helpful, thank you.

What filter is being used and how is it setup?

On 12/29/2022 at 5:42 PM, jwcarlson said:

If it's still in the 6s it probably won't shift much, but the advice above is good to aerate and see what it looks like after 24 hours.  Mine shifts from 7 to 8.3.

I buffer mine from 6.5ish up to 7.2-7.4.  using crushed coral it went up very little, but it was more stable than say using buffers. Let's say it went up by 0.1-0.3 range.

That being mentioned, it also wasn't nearly enough for the issue at hand. For low PH, you're probably looking at 1.5-2 lbs per 10G to get it from 6 --> 7+

Lastly, PH is part of the story, but you need to check your GH and KH. Either use the tetra strips or the ACO strips to do so.

There are plenty of fish that will do perfectly fine at 6-7.4 PH range without issues.

[jwcarlson]

On 12/30/2022 at 1:33 AM, nabokovfan87 said:

I buffer mine from 6.5ish up to 7.2-7.4.  using crushed coral it went up very little, but it was more stable than say using buffers. Let's say it went up by 0.1-0.3 range.

I was talking specifically about the shift from CO2 offgasing.  I don't do anything to raise mine from 7 to 8.3 other than aerate in my aging bucket. 

I agree with @Rube_Goldfish, don't be afraid (weird line break from edit lol) 

of doing a fish in cycle as long as you commit to daily water changes, it can be done without hurting the fish.  I did it for my discus grow outs and for my initial QT setup about a year ago when I got back into the hobby.  Prime and Stability (both Seachem products) at every water change will get things rolling well. 

In my 10 gallon I was doing two 50% changes daily, with my discus in 75 it was one 60% daily.  Never showed signs of stress in any of these cases.  I think fish in cycling got a bad reputation at some point, probably because most people don't change water very often things get toxic quickly.

Have the goldfish shown any signs of stress when you're reading ammonia as you describe above? 

Edited December 30, 2022 by jwcarlson

[Tanner Fish lover]

hi everyone and thank you for the info,

I have a lot of filtration. 3 hang on back and 3 sponge and a under gravel filter fit for 20 gallons.

gh is 75

kh is 0

I have a 4 inch substrate of gravel from home depot.

I can do a fish in cycle since i currently am changing 20 gallons a day. I had three 20 gallons that were cycled, but i added dirt substrate and it messed with the filters, so i broke down those three 20 gallons, thinking my 40 would cycle in a month. plus i wanted to upgrade to the 40 gallon.  right now i have no cycled tanks and im changing 100% of the water in one 20 gallon every day for the 2 ranchu.

edit: I also have hornwort, anacharis, and el nino fern in the 40 gallon.

edit: I read the article. I didnt mention my water is a little cloudy. it was very cloudy and yellow but i added accu-clear api and a carbon bag to a filter. that cleared it up a bit more. Also I have been feeding a low quality food, but i have hikari pellets arriving today. thank you for linking the article, Schuyler

Edited December 30, 2022 by Tanner Fish lover

[Biotope Biologist]

A few things…

 

1. 6.0 pH will ‘slow’ your cycle but it’s far more complicated than X pH leads to Y time of complete cycle. 6.0pH is fine and chasing pH is more harmful than good. 
 

2. kH of 0 and gh of 75 means you need carbonic salts not crushed coral. Crushed coral will not be as effective due to equilibrium reactions. You can find these online or at marine fish stores.

 

3. if you do massive water changes you will never have a complete cycle. You are removing the waste en masse, which is the food for the bacteria. Slow down be patient. Find a water change regimen that you like. I have a creek system which requires pristine water for my fish. I change 30% 2x a week.

 

4. That much filtration is overkill. Even for me. I’d use 1 or 2 HOB OR the sponges. Too much maintenance. Less is more in this case.
 

Are you planning to keep the goldfish and have a tank with them or are they just for a ‘fish in’ cycle? What I recommend, will be based on your ideal fish stock of the 40g.

[Tanner Fish lover]

the ranchu goldfish are the fish meant for the 40 gallon. I initially had them in a 20 gallon that was cycled but i wanted to upgrade the space for them. Is carbonic salt aquarium salt? I worry about adding aquarium salt because i did that once and it crashed my cycle in one of my 20 gallons.

[Winstons_estate]

@Tanner Fish loverI feel as though you might be overthinking it and got lost in the proverbial weeds a little

If i was trying to establish a tank right now would I would hang some live pothos plant roots in the water column somewhere. As soon as i saw any sign of growth (on the pothos leaves, roots, or even algae on the glass), I would add 6-8 Zebra danios or some similar small hardy fish.

I would test the water every other day and water change as needed

I wouldnt add anymore chemical products except easy green and dechlorinator and after a few weeks id return the danios to another tank and add the goldfish one at a time with a couple of weeks in between (if thats the fish you want in there)

 

Hope this helps 🙂 

Edited December 30, 2022 by Winstons_estate

[Tanner Fish lover]

I think introducing one ranchu at a time would be a good idea and 20% water changes if the ammonia gets above 0.25 ppm. I just dont like the idea of any ammonia in the water because i dont want the ammonia to burn my fish.

[AllFishNoBrakes]

While we don’t want ammonia in the water, during a cycle you absolutely need the ammonia to colonize the bacteria. Once the bacteria is established, they’ll immediately convert ammonia. It’s a necessary evil while the tank builds bacteria and stabilizes. 
 

If it were me, I would water change 50% when the ammonia got to .5ppm. 

[Tanner Fish lover]

The crushed coral arrived today. I'm going to test it on a 20 gallon i am also trying to cycle. I've added 1/2 cup to 20 gallons. initially ph is 6.0. ammonia is .25