Can you breed and raise Apistogramma in a 20 gallon?

[31LJ95]

Was wondering if you could breed and raise all the fry in one 20 gallon without the need for an extra tank for fry?

[T. Payne]

With lots of cover, I would say yes, especially if using a 20 long.

[itsfoxtail]

If you're referring to raising the apistos all the way to selling size in the same tank as the parents I would have to say no. If you're referring to raising them up to a decent size to then move to a growout I'd say yes! Most dwarf cichlids are great parents and apistos are no exception! They raise them to about... idk about a month or so in my experience before they want to lay their next batch. This is when things get tricky because the parents begin chasing off the previous spawn to protect the new one. That paired with the fact that they begin getting pretty aggressive themselves in the first month or two of life turns this tank into an absolute battle royale. Depending on how big your spawn is as well they will start over-crowding one another and will grow much, much slower. It would be possible, I'd say yes, especially if you're willing to sell them/give them away for much cheaper at a very small size, but I personally I wouldn't recommend it.

[tolstoy21]

Yes, you absolutely can, but with the caveats that @itsfoxtail raised. I'd say itsfoxtail's points are 100% spot on in my experience.

On 12/18/2022 at 11:40 PM, itsfoxtail said:

Most dwarf cichlids are great parents and apistos are no exception! They raise them to about... idk about a month or so in my experience before they want to lay their next batch. This is when things get tricky because the parents begin chasing off the previous spawn to protect the new one.

Agree 100%

You can definitely breed apistos in 20G, and raise a decent number up to about three or four months of age. After that, you'll either need to move them to something like a 40 breeder (depending on the number of fry you are growing out), or trade or sell them. 

On 12/18/2022 at 11:40 PM, itsfoxtail said:

Depending on how big your spawn is as well they will start over-crowding one another and will grow much, much slower.

Also, very true. When crowded, they will stay smaller much longer, but . . . when separated out, they do tend to begin to take on size. 

If you are growing out a decent number, they tend to not get too aggressive with one another if there is no real opportunity for them to create and guard territories. They will squabble, but they don't kill one another (in my experience) like the adults defending their breeding area can.

For this reason, I set up my grow outs with this in mind, that I don't want them creating territories. I may put in a large hollow-log style ornament (like the very nice one from pleco ceramics!) or a large patch of java fern, but nothing that a single fish can attempt to call their own. 

You can hold the fry well into adulthood this way, but it is better to try to find them new homes before this time.  

[itsfoxtail]

On 12/19/2022 at 6:23 AM, tolstoy21 said:

If you are growing out a decent number, they tend to not get too aggressive with one another if there is no real opportunity for them to create and guard territories. They will squabble, but they don't kill one another (in my experience) like the adults defending their breeding area can.

For this reason, I set up my grow outs with this in mind, that I don't want them creating territories. I may put in a large hollow-log style ornament (like the very nice one from pleco ceramics!) or a large patch of java fern, but nothing that a single fish can attempt to call their own. 

And here I am adding more and more to break up lines of sight and create even more territories hoping to minimize aggression. This... makes so much sense. Thank you for this gem of info!

[tolstoy21]

On 12/21/2022 at 1:44 AM, itsfoxtail said:

And here I am adding more and more to break up lines of sight and create even more territories hoping to minimize aggression. This... makes so much sense. Thank you for this gem of info!

I have about 40+ male apistos of three different species in a 40G. Admittedly they have been in there longer than I'd like (I had massively male heavy spawns and it's hard to move males without accompanying females. I'm trying to raise them at lower temps now in an attempt to even out the ratios of future spawns).

They are going on 6 - 8 months of age right now, and they do squabble at times.  But what I notice from them is more like posturing and displaying.

I have yet to lose a fish in this setup. All my fish are healthy and colored up well and show no stress. However, yeah they need new homes. I have a couple large ornaments for them to shelter in, but usually a handful of males will hang out together in the same cave, or skull or log (I think the key is to make sure the hides aren't small enough to be defended by a single individual). I also have large clumps of Java Fern, but this is more for them to feel comfortable from me or theoretical predators than it is to separate them from one another.

Now, I don't advocate keeping apistos long term in this kind of setup as 'pets', but it does work if you are breeding and need to hold a large spawn for a period of time longer than you might have anticipated.

Perhaps I might start offering some of these in the Sell/Trade section here for anyone interested, free of cost as long as shipping is covered by the recipient. 

[k0olmini]

I remember the co op posting a video about this with Dean recommending a 20 gallon. Sight blocks and more than one cave 

[itsfoxtail]

On 12/21/2022 at 7:27 AM, tolstoy21 said:

I have about 40+ male apistos of three different species in a 40G. Admittedly they have been in there longer than I'd like (I had massively male heavy spawns and it's hard to move males without accompanying females. I'm trying to raise them at lower temps now in an attempt to even out the ratios of future spawns).

I would genuinely like to know if this works out for you. I've heard mixed reviews on whether or not the 'higher temps more males' theory is actually fact and find myself immensely curious.

On 12/21/2022 at 7:27 AM, tolstoy21 said:

They are going on 6 - 8 months of age right now, and they do squabble at times.  But what I notice from them is more like posturing and displaying.

I have yet to lose a fish in this setup. All my fish are healthy and colored up well and show no stress. However, yeah they need new homes. I have a couple large ornaments for them to shelter in, but usually a handful of males will hang out together in the same cave, or skull or log (I think the key is to make sure the hides aren't small enough to be defended by a single individual). I also have large clumps of Java Fern, but this is more for them to feel comfortable from me or theoretical predators than it is to separate them from one another.

Do you keep males and females together when raising up a batch of fry? I find that my females are the ones who cause the most trouble in the grow-out tanks. Nothing that really causes any harm but they most definitely pick out any corner/space they can find and defend it for all they're worth. I have made the mistake of using dragonstone in my apisto growouts which has ended up being a terrible idea as the females can actually swim inside the holes even though they are quite small. Makes for about a million different "territories" and is also a massive pain to fish them out, haha. Live and learn, though.

[tolstoy21]

On 12/23/2022 at 1:19 AM, itsfoxtail said:

I would genuinely like to know if this works out for you. I've heard mixed reviews on whether or not the 'higher temps more males' theory is actually fact and find myself immensely curious.

There have been scientific studies on the influence of both temperature and Ph on a couple dozen different apistogramma species that have revealed a direct correlation between these environmental factors and gender ratios. I was able to search through an online archive I have access to via work and found a few studies on the topic. The first of these studies has been pretty well quoted in lots of old threads on the web in regards to this topic.

The two studies of note are:

Environmental determination of sex in Apistogramma (Cichlidae) and two other freshwater fishes (Teleostei) from the Journal of Fish Biology (Romer and Beisenherz, 1996)

Influence of temperature on fertility, growth rates, and reproductive success on selected species of
Apistogramma (Romer, 2001)

I summarized some of the findings of the first study in this thread a few weeks back -- 

In regards to my personal observations, something does influence this because I have personally had some almost all female spawns, with like 90% females (in very large spawns too), and the same with male heavy ones (smaller spawns). I've had this happen with cacatuoides, baenschi and agassizii alike. 

Since my last male-heavy spawn, I'm now experimenting with environmental factors and taking more notes.  Currently I am growing out more baenschi and some abacaxis, and will hopefully have better data for these two batches than I have kept in the past.  I'm taking recordings of tank params every two weeks, and will eventually do a male/female count when they are old enough to be sexed with a modicum of accuracy.

On 12/23/2022 at 1:19 AM, itsfoxtail said:

Do you keep males and females together when raising up a batch of fry? I find that my females are the ones who cause the most trouble in the grow-out tanks. Nothing that really causes any harm but they most definitely pick out any corner/space they can find and defend it for all they're worth.

I've noticed the same, but this is hit-or-miss with pairs. Some pairs will raise spawns more cooperatively than others. Sometimes the female will give the male a stern warning, other times she will wind up killing him. (Other times, one or both eat their kids).

I just had a spawn of trifaciata this week and I'm keeping a close eye on the pair to see how this plays out. I'd hate to lose this batch (or a parent), but it's helpful for me to know what their parenting style is like so I know who needs to be separated and who does not. I currently don't have enough tanks to separate out every single male. And I don't want to stick the males in community tanks for fear of losing track of who is who.

 

On 12/23/2022 at 1:19 AM, itsfoxtail said:

I have made the mistake of using dragonstone in my apisto growouts which has ended up being a terrible idea as the females can actually swim inside the holes even though they are quite small. Makes for about a million different "territories" and is also a massive pain to fish them out, haha. Live and learn, though.

Ha! 100% been there!!!!

I had this happen with a large piece of malysian driftwood in a growout.

Fish would wedge themselves into the tiniest crevices where they could not be extracted (by me at least) or even seen. Before I knew exactly what was going on, I would lift the piece out to clean or net out fish and then I'd find a handful of apistos flopping around on the floor. I'd think WTF? How the heck did they get there?

Unfortunately, I lost a few this way until I understood exactly what was happening. Since then, I stopped using anything in the tank that they could defensively wedge themselves into like this.

Edited December 23, 2022 by tolstoy21

[anewbie]

On 12/18/2022 at 10:31 PM, AllFishNoBrakes said:

I did Kribensis in a 20 gallon high. The first spawn I let the parents be the awesome caretakers that they are and raise them up before I moved them. The second spawn I let them all stay in that 20 high until I sold them all off. Right before I sold them, the original pair spawned again and was protecting eggs from the entire previous generation. Was pretty wild to see. 
 

I made the mistake of keeping the entirety of both spawns. The first spawn took forever to move which caused the second one to take even longer. Learned a valuable lesson when it comes to breeding and raising fish with those guys. 
 

I would assume Apistos would be similar as they’re both dwarf cichlids, but I could also be totally wrong. Just trying to give my experience with dwarf cichlids in a 20 gallon. 

You can't compare kribs to most species of apistogramma since the behavior between male/female is different. In fact this post is extremely inappropriate since attempts to breed most species of apistogramma in a 20 high will result in dead fish.

 

As to the op question; it depends on the species - cockatoo it would be ill advised; borelli or the  closely related genus a. pucallpaensis easily. If you can get nijsseni to pair up prior to putting them in the 20 high - probably. Btw a 20 long is much more suitable for most species of apisto than a 20 high which has a lot of wasted space.

[anewbie]

On 12/21/2022 at 7:27 AM, tolstoy21 said:

I have about 40+ male apistos of three different species in a 40G. Admittedly they have been in there longer than I'd like (I had massively male heavy spawns and it's hard to move males without accompanying females. I'm trying to raise them at lower temps now in an attempt to even out the ratios of future spawns).

They are going on 6 - 8 months of age right now, and they do squabble at times.  But what I notice from them is more like posturing and displaying.

I have yet to lose a fish in this setup. All my fish are healthy and colored up well and show no stress. However, yeah they need new homes. I have a couple large ornaments for them to shelter in, but usually a handful of males will hang out together in the same cave, or skull or log (I think the key is to make sure the hides aren't small enough to be defended by a single individual). I also have large clumps of Java Fern, but this is more for them to feel comfortable from me or theoretical predators than it is to separate them from one another.

Now, I don't advocate keeping apistos long term in this kind of setup as 'pets', but it does work if you are breeding and need to hold a large spawn for a period of time longer than you might have anticipated.

Perhaps I might start offering some of these in the Sell/Trade section here for anyone interested, free of cost as long as shipping is covered by the recipient. 

I would argue this is a slightly different situation for numerous reasons. Of course as the male and females mature the males might attempt to stake out a territory and if one is much stongerthan the others you might begin to have issues down the road; but with so many fishes in the 40; it is unlikely that one will actually be able to form a territory. I would argue the situation would be different if you had 4 males in the 40g and one or two had firmly established territories. Of course as a rule the females tend to be more deadly than the males.... I'm actually having a lot of 'fun' with my pucallpaensis as they are one of the more docile species but things are not exactly tranquil with them.

[tolstoy21]

On 12/23/2022 at 10:02 AM, anewbie said:

I would argue the situation would be different if you had 4 males in the 40g and one or two had firmly established territories. Of course as a rule the females tend to be more deadly than the males....

Yes, I agree 100%. I hope I didn't come off as suggesting otherwise. The situation is unique and different than other scenarios, and not one I would advocate as a "normal" fish keeping practice.

If I had attempted to keep 4 males in a 40G, I would want them to be able to establish territories and would expect them to fight a bit more viciously and act more territorial. But I would not actually setup a tank like this, as I even had troubles with 2 males in a 125G. The one who had staked out the tank would find and kill any later introduced males as he had already decided the entire tank was his.

I've seen the same with females. They also will fight for and defend a breeding area from other females (at least I've seen this with cacatuodies), but they get the most aggressive when defending eggs or fry.

 

[tolstoy21]

On 12/23/2022 at 9:55 AM, anewbie said:

Btw a 20 long is much more suitable for most species of apisto than a 20 high which has a lot of wasted space.

I use 20 highs simply for the water volume (over 10 gallons) and because I can accommodate for them more easily when the tank is situated in "portrait" orientation rather than "landscape".  So the space isn't necessarily wasted if it's used to increase the water volume over other tank size choices.

I agree that more bottom real estate is the way to go if you're not trying to maximize tank density on a rack.  This is why I don't do more than a pair of fish in any 20 high, just not enough footprint for more than one male and one female (and for other reasons, liking being able to keep better track of who is spawning with whom, etc.)

[itsfoxtail]

On 12/23/2022 at 7:28 AM, tolstoy21 said:

There have been scientific studies on the influence of both temperature and Ph on a couple dozen different apistogramma species that have revealed a direct correlation between these environmental factors and gender ratios. I was able to search through an online archive I have access to via work and found a few studies on the topic. The first of these studies has been pretty well quoted in lots of old threads on the web in regards to this topic.

The two studies of note are:

Environmental determination of sex in Apistogramma (Cichlidae) and two other freshwater fishes (Teleostei) from the Journal of Fish Biology (Romer and Beisenherz, 1996)

Influence of temperature on fertility, growth rates, and reproductive success on selected species of
Apistogramma (Romer, 2001)

I summarized some of the findings of the first study in this thread a few weeks back -- 

In regards to my personal observations, something does influence this because I have personally had some almost all female spawns, with like 90% females (in very large spawns too), and the same with male heavy ones (smaller spawns). I've had this happen with cacatuoides, baenschi and agassizii alike. 

Since my last male-heavy spawn, I'm now experimenting with environmental factors and taking more notes.  Currently I am growing out more baenschi and some abacaxis, and will hopefully have better data for these two batches than I have kept in the past.  I'm taking recordings of tank params every two weeks, and will eventually do a male/female count when they are old enough to be sexed with a modicum of accuracy.

This is amazingly fascinating! Thank you so much for sharing this! Out of my own curiosity I wonder how many spawns total they surveyed to get this information. Or for that matter if this info could possibly be applied to other species of dwarf cichlids, especially other South American species. Lots to digest!

 

On 12/23/2022 at 7:28 AM, tolstoy21 said:

I've noticed the same, but this is hit-or-miss with pairs. Some pairs will raise spawns more cooperatively than others. Sometimes the female will give the male a stern warning, other times she will wind up killing him. (Other times, one or both eat their kids).

Individuality at its best I suppose. I've lovingly called a few of mine Chronos from time to time when they're particularly fry-hungry.

On 12/23/2022 at 7:28 AM, tolstoy21 said:

I just had a spawn of trifaciata this week and I'm keeping a close eye on the pair to see how this plays out. I'd hate to lose this batch (or a parent), but it's helpful for me to know what their parenting style is like so I know who needs to be separated and who does not. I currently don't have enough tanks to separate out every single male. And I don't want to stick the males in community tanks for fear of losing track of who is who.

Fingers crossed! Do you have a breeding group all in the same tank or pairs/trios? I suppose dividers could always work in a pinch if it comes to that (hopefully it won't), which are always fun since they still posture and smack-talk one another through them.

On 12/23/2022 at 7:28 AM, tolstoy21 said:

Ha! 100% been there!!!!

I had this happen with a large piece of malysian driftwood in a growout.

Fish would wedge themselves into the tiniest crevices where they could not be extracted (by me at least) or even seen. Before I knew exactly what was going on, I would lift the piece out to clean or net out fish and then I'd find a handful of apistos flopping around on the floor. I'd think WTF? How the heck did they get there?

Unfortunately, I lost a few this way until I understood exactly what was happening. Since then, I stopped using anything in the tank that they could defensively wedge themselves into like this.

😂 This was so visual! Commence the quick 'rescue the floor fish' operation. 

I've tried to take the dragonstone out, and I know for a fact there's a few in there, but they won't come out. Even when out of the water I don't see any attempt. They're worse than shell dwellers I swear. I find myself just talking into the dragonstone holes like 'I know you're in there!' Ultimately my fear of having them become fish jerky stuck in their little holes has led me to just leave it in there... and deal with the repercussions of my poor decisions.

[tolstoy21]

On 12/24/2022 at 5:53 AM, itsfoxtail said:

Out of my own curiosity I wonder how many spawns total they surveyed to get this information. Or for that matter if this info could possibly be applied to other species of dwarf cichlids, especially other South American species. Lots to digest!

 

I forget how many spawns they sampled. I am assuming a decent amount, because they did mention the findings applied equally to F1 generations, as well as F-something-like-12-or-so. The effect varied from one species to another in degree, but typically the trend was the same. Only one or two species studied showed no statistical differences from environment factors.

They did study one other species of fish, but I believe it was a non cichlid. But I could be remembering incorrectly. 

On 12/24/2022 at 5:53 AM, itsfoxtail said:

Fingers crossed! Do you have a breeding group all in the same tank or pairs/trios? I suppose dividers could always work in a pinch if it comes to that (hopefully it won't), which are always fun since they still posture and smack-talk one another through them.

I keep pairs in 20g highs. I will relocate the males to 10 gallons typically, but currently those are taken up by my crystal red shrimp that I'm trying to selectively breed and refine. I try not to mix my breeding fish too much since I'm trying to keep track of which fish is which for better understanding of lines etc.

There is no real way to use dividers in my setup since the tanks are situated in "portrait" orientation.

On 12/24/2022 at 5:53 AM, itsfoxtail said:

they won't come out. Even when out of the water I don't see any attempt. They're worse than shell dwellers I swear. I find myself just talking into the dragonstone holes like 'I know you're in there!'

 Yup. Totally been there!

[Rube_Goldfish]

I added a 1M:2F trio of A. cacatuoides to a 55 gallon community tank less than a week ago after a month together in ten gallon quarantine tank. So far they've chased each other a little, but it hasn't seemed serious to me. There are two Co-op apisto caves, one on either end of a moderate-to-heavily planted-and-hardscaped tank, and one of the females seems to have claimed one of the caves. But they all seem a little young yet, so I guess we'll see. But while I'm not really planning on or expecting any successful breeding, all the above has me wondering if I bit off more than I can chew with regard to adult-on-adult aggression. Fingers crossed, I guess!

[Rube_Goldfish]

On 1/9/2023 at 5:23 PM, Rube_Goldfish said:

I added a 1M:2F trio of A. cacatuoides to a 55 gallon community tank less than a week ago after a month together in ten gallon quarantine tank. So far they've chased each other a little, but it hasn't seemed serious to me. There are two Co-op apisto caves, one on either end of a moderate-to-heavily planted-and-hardscaped tank, and one of the females seems to have claimed one of the caves. But they all seem a little young yet, so I guess we'll see. But while I'm not really planning on or expecting any successful breeding, all the above has me wondering if I bit off more than I can chew with regard to adult-on-adult aggression. Fingers crossed, I guess!

Well, i just found an Otocinclus dead (all six otos had been home from my LFS for about two months and in the 55 gallon for about a month; the other five are just fine). I'm no fish coroner but I don't see any obvious signs of illness. It looks like there might be some kind of wound on its body, but I'm not really confident in stating that. Anyway, can an apisto kill an oto? Would it? They've got about the same body size. Adding the apistos six days ago is the only recent change the tank has had, though I know that might be coincidental.

[tolstoy21]

On 1/11/2023 at 2:33 PM, Rube_Goldfish said:

Anyway, can an apisto kill an oto? Would it?

They can and will if defending a spawn.  Otherwise they are non-aggressive towards other fish species. 

They also won't eat fish except those that are super small and easy to catch. I find them to be lazy hunters, as they prefer to forage at the bottom of the aquarium, especially if there is food available or they are kept decently fed.

If you don't have fry in the tank, I would guess the otos died from another cause and the apistos nibbled at the corpse.

 

Edited January 12, 2023 by tolstoy21

[Rube_Goldfish]

On 1/12/2023 at 8:24 AM, tolstoy21 said:

They can and will if defending a spawn.  Otherwise they are non-aggressive towards other fish species. 

They also won't eat fish that except those that are super small and easy to catch. I find them to be lazy hunters, as they prefer to forage at the bottom of the aquarium, especially if there is food available or they are kept decently fed.

If you don't have fry in the tank, I would guess the otos died from another cause and the apistos nibbled at the corpse.

 

Thanks. I have no actual evidence that any of the apistos killed the oto, or indeed any real evidence that the oto was killed. I thought I saw a red spot/wound on its body, but I don't really know for sure. I was speculating because the addition of the apistos has been the only change for the last couple weeks, and the other five are totally normal. The apistos were actually ignoring the body, and they mostly ignore all the non-apisto fish and invertebrates in the tank.

I don't know if they've spawned, though this is all new to me so I guess it's possible. I put two ACO apisto caves in the tank and one of the females quickly claimed and spends most of her day in and around it, but she's never gotten any yellow coloration and I've definitely not seen any fry or anything. So I guess we'll see, and I'll just have to hope the derpy fish learn to stay away from the caves. I've got backup plans, just in case.

[FishyMike]

I have raised 6-7 spawns to sexable sizes (3 different kinds of apistos) in 10 gallon tanks. I am sure to remove the parents after the fry are little more than free swimming. its my theory that you can go about growing fry 2 different ways. A. lots of space so no one bothers each other and they have room for territory. or in a normal tank so no-one can establish territory and they are basically in  each others space but no body has space so they are in co-existence with out killing each other.  they might show here or there or even a quick nip but seem to be put back in place immediately. I have a water change system that changes 50% of their water every other day. 

[Rube_Goldfish]

Well, it turns out that my 1M:2F A. cacatuoides trio is actually 2M:1F. The good news is it looks like the female and one of the males have paired up pretty well; the bad news is that they started relentlessly chasing the other male. Moreover, other fish were getting caught in the crossfire. Anyway, rejected male was rescued out of the 55 gallon community tank and is now by himself in an established-but-empty planted 10 gallon. (I'm planning on making it a shrimp tank, but I guess I'll have to shelve that idea for the time being.)

Bachelor Number 1:

Bachelor Number 2, now in his own bachelor pad while I figure out what to do with him:

Edited January 15, 2023 by Rube_Goldfish