Clear aquaponics HOB filter passion project

[nabokovfan87]

On 12/7/2022 at 2:45 PM, Caidenh24 said:

Is it reviewed before and after adding the draft? What do you mean injection molding is the tool maker? 

Injection molding they make molds to form the parts. That's the ultimate expense apart from production time at the manufacturing facility. This gives you an idea of how it works. Plastic pellets are heated into a liquid, inserted into the mold, then the part is formed and trimmed as need be.

If you've ever seen little model kids for making a model car, those are all injection molded parts too and sometimes you'll get an extra glob of plastic. That's normal, usually trimmed off when need be.

Design is usually completed internally, reviewed using something like a 3d printer or animations, FMEA tools and other methods. Once everything looks good, then you're moving into production phase of the project. That means the model is "finished" and you're going to add draft and other methods as need be to form the part using that process. This has to do with ease or editing the model in the future and the chain of commands used to create the parts.

On 12/7/2022 at 2:45 PM, Caidenh24 said:

Ok that makes more sense. I am confused about when you said ¨The draft starting acuttingt the base and cutting into the part making the top dimension narrower¨. I am pretty sure there is a typo. Also the draft thing makes sense especially because even if they use the same draft angle the taller the object is, the wider it will get at the bottom because, the angle extends out more the longer it goes. Thanks!

Yeah. Mobile website issues. Sorry about that.

Should read, "The draft starting at the base and cutting into the part, making the top dimension narrower."

[Caidenh24]

 

On 12/7/2022 at 3:13 PM, nabokovfan87 said:

Injection molding they make molds to form the parts. That's the ultimate expense apart from production time at the manufacturing facility. This gives you an idea of how it works. Plastic pellets are heated into a liquid, inserted into the mold, then the part is formed and trimmed as need be.

If you've ever seen little model kids for making a model car, those are all injection molded parts too and sometimes you'll get an extra glob of plastic. That's normal, usually trimmed off when need be.

Design is usually completed internally, reviewed using something like a 3d printer or animations, FMEA tools and other methods. Once everything looks good, then you're moving into production phase of the project. That means the model is "finished" and you're going to add draft and other methods as need be to form the part using that process. This has to do with ease or editing the model in the future and the chain of commands used to create the parts.

Ok that makes sense now.

 

On 12/7/2022 at 3:13 PM, nabokovfan87 said:

Yeah. Mobile website issues. Sorry about that.

Should read, "The draft starting at the base and cutting into the part, making the top dimension narrower."

What do you mean by cutting into it. I thought the whole thing would be injected together? Thanks!

Edited December 8, 2022 by Caidenh24
Spell correct

[Caidenh24]

On 12/7/2022 at 10:02 AM, nabokovfan87 said:

I think big/small might be referring to height, unsure.

Sorry I didn't see This. it is referring to height.

[nabokovfan87]

On 12/7/2022 at 4:22 PM, Caidenh24 said:

What do you mean by cutting into it. I thought the hole thing would be injected together? Thanks!

Here is some additional guides and resources that might be interested to you.  This would help in terms of "how" when you're thinking about your design.
https://www.protolabs.com/resources/design-tips/injection-molding-basics/
https://www.basilius.com/designing-for-injection-molding/

[Caidenh24]

On 12/7/2022 at 4:54 PM, nabokovfan87 said:

Here is some additional guides and resources that might be interested to you.  This would help in terms of "how" when you're thinking about your design.
https://www.protolabs.com/resources/design-tips/injection-molding-basics/
https://www.basilius.com/designing-for-injection-molding/

ok thanks!

[Caidenh24]

I have a question. What will this product bring to the table for aquaponics. Like what benefit does this bring. I know it helps with fish but besides that what might it help with? Thanks!

The reason I am asking is because I need examples of what this can help with for an assignment at school

Edited December 8, 2022 by Caidenh24

[Caidenh24]

On 12/8/2022 at 9:19 AM, Caidenh24 said:

I have a question. What will this product bring to the table for aquaponics. Like what benefit does this bring. I know it helps with fish but besides that what might it help with? Thanks!

The reason I am asking is because I need examples of what this can help with for an assignment at school

I have been thinking about this and I found an answer. This product with bring a lot to keeping fish and aquaponics.

1. This filter is not like other aquaponic filters. Other models of aquaponic filters are really small or built into a tank. This can be at big as you want it to be with segmented peices.

2. Growing the plants: This product can grow plants like hydroponics almost. With the plants roots not just floating in the water but they can actually root in the media of the filter. With this a lot more plants can be grown in it. For example: Tomatoes, Leafy lettuce, Peppers, Cucumbers, Cauliflower, Cabbage, Strawberries, And more. I am not sure yet how I can grow the big plants but I will figure it out as I go.

3: Helping the fish: WIth plants growing emersed they can readily get a good source of oxygen from the air which can help with the plants growing and the faster they grow the more stuff (like nitrates, Phosphates, Ammonia, Nitrogen). They also can help combat algae growth. With the media in the filter it also provides a breeding ground for beneficial bacteria to grow. It also in return just makes the fish happier. 

4. Extends the natural look out of the aquarium: Why stop with putting plants in your aquarium when they can extend out of it also. With it extending out and the plants growing all over you will feel acomplished and happy looking at your plants you are grownig and seeing how healthy they look. With them extending out it will bring the natural look out of the aquarium and with the right plants can make that area look like a jungle. 

That is just some that I thought of.

UPDATE AS TO WHERE I AM AT:

I am working on designing my model. I am then going to prototype it by building it with acrylic. I am also looking into manufactures for my product. I may have found a possible manufactuer I just have to contact them.

I don´t know if I want to go with the one that @Fish Folk showed or the original design on the back. I will have to test with my prototype if it causes unbalences with the tank and makes it heavier and more leaned to one side. I will let you all know when I found out. Thanks!

[Caidenh24]

Here is another update: So sense last time I have had to rebuild it at least 2 times. First time I used sketchup which has no parametric modeling. So I had to remodel it and I found fusion 360 has a free version. I used that and it worked, but I did it all bad and messy, so I did it again, this time neater and now it is done. I just need to make the tube. Do any of you know the diameter for the breeder box tubes? Thanks!

the clear image of it is how it should look maybe a bit foggier, the blue one just makes it easier to see.

[nabokovfan87]

On 1/5/2023 at 8:30 AM, Caidenh24 said:

Do any of you know the diameter for the breeder box tubes?

I would use ID of 12mm and OD of 16mm

Or

ID of 5/8" OD of 1/2"

[Caidenh24]

On 1/5/2023 at 11:05 AM, nabokovfan87 said:

I would use ID of 12mm and OD of 16mm

Or

ID of 5/8" OD of 1/2"

Ok thanks! I will design it when I get home. Do you know if there is a way to take pictures of it in different environments within fusion. Like for example put plants inside the box? Thanks!

[nabokovfan87]

Some of that stuff might be in rendering tools.  In AutoCAD for instance, you design your "set" whatever that is, then you go into render and you have lighting engines as well as different tools used to add items into that render.  They would show up as dots, but would pull from a rasterized image that is in the shape of a plant. 

Option 2, you model the plant.

https://knowledge.autodesk.com/support/autocad/learn-explore/caas/CloudHelp/cloudhelp/2020/ENU/AutoCAD-Core/files/GUID-B3071AE7-76BB-436C-9BAE-CC54CFBD4F96-htm.html

https://www.autodesk.com/certification/learn/module/introduction-to-rendering?us_oa=akn-us&us_si=9627d270-139d-472b-9dc1-e00dd28c1352&us_st=render

[Caidenh24]

On 1/5/2023 at 12:06 PM, nabokovfan87 said:

Some of that stuff might be in rendering tools.  In AutoCAD for instance, you design your "set" whatever that is, then you go into render and you have lighting engines as well as different tools used to add items into that render.  They would show up as dots, but would pull from a rasterized image that is in the shape of a plant. 

Option 2, you model the plant.

https://knowledge.autodesk.com/support/autocad/learn-explore/caas/CloudHelp/cloudhelp/2020/ENU/AutoCAD-Core/files/GUID-B3071AE7-76BB-436C-9BAE-CC54CFBD4F96-htm.html

https://www.autodesk.com/certification/learn/module/introduction-to-rendering?us_oa=akn-us&us_si=9627d270-139d-472b-9dc1-e00dd28c1352&us_st=render

Ok thanks!

[drewzero1]

On 1/5/2023 at 10:30 AM, Caidenh24 said:

Here is another update: So sense last time I have had to rebuild it at least 2 times. First time I used sketchup which has no parametric modeling. So I had to remodel it and I found fusion 360 has a free version. I used that and it worked, but I did it all bad and messy, so I did it again, this time neater and now it is done. I just need to make the tube. Do any of you know the diameter for the breeder box tubes? Thanks!

the clear image of it is how it should look maybe a bit foggier, the blue one just makes it easier to see.

The outside diameter of my breeder box's uplift tube is approximately 13.4mm or ~0.52 inches. Usually tubing is measured by the interior diameter, but I don't have that measurement handy.

[Caidenh24]

Hey, I have a question. I don´t know how what to do for mounting the filter, HOB would be the best option but I am worried about glass flexing. Without adding pieces the weight would be around 13 lbs and the filter is going to hang like 1/2 an inch off the glass. Having it above the tank would be nice but it would cost a lot more to make and take up a lot of space. Does anyone know how much weight an aquarium can hold hanging off the back at all? Thanks!

Edited February 8, 2023 by Caidenh24

[Caidenh24]

On 11/16/2022 at 12:46 PM, drewzero1 said:

Here's an alternate shape that aligns the gasket surface with the force of the latches:

I overlooked this idea when it was first posted. I just saw it not like 5 months later when going back through for a school project. I wish I saw this one a while ago. I probably saw it but didn't like the idea very much because I probably thought it would be too hard to do. It would have saved me a lot of time to just go with this one. It's very close to the latch design I am going with now. I might try and go with this one though because there is less stress on the part.

**UPDATE**

Yes, I am still alive sorry for not updating you guys for a long time I have been busy with homework, My parents have been on me about it. Hopefully, there will be more frequent updates from now. I have started 3d printing it for a prototype but the middle segment is too large to be printed so I am going to have to shorten it by a little bit and then I can test it. I also made latches for the sides of it now. The latch style is like a buckle on a backpack or something. I think it would work well but it was printed in PLA and I didn't realize until after that PLA is really still and so one of the clips broke off and it needs to be able to flex so eventually I will need it reprinted in PETG but for now I will just glue it back on. The segments just won't be able to come apart and go back together with the stiff latches so the segments will just stay as one, but that will be fine for prototyping to see how waterproof it is. As soon as I have time. I am going to shorten the big segment so it can be printed and then I can test the whole thing! Thanks to everyone that has helped me with this. I can see the light at the end of the tunnel and it is getting closer! 🙂

Edited April 11, 2023 by Caidenh24

[nabokovfan87]

On 2/7/2023 at 6:32 PM, Caidenh24 said:

Does anyone know how much weight an aquarium can hold hanging off the back at all? Thanks!

There are some hang on canisters, but yeah, that's usually an issue. There are shower filters that sit on the top of a tank.

On 4/11/2023 at 9:13 AM, Caidenh24 said:

I can see the light at the end of the tunnel and it is getting closer! 🙂

That's awesome. Keep up the good work!

[Caidenh24]

On 4/11/2023 at 12:32 PM, nabokovfan87 said:

There are some hang on canisters, but yeah, that's usually an issue. There are shower filters that sit on the top of a tank.

On 4/11/2023 at 9:13 AM, Caidenh24 said:

Ok, when I get to the actual testing I guess I will see if the tank breaks then I know it is too heavy. 

 

On 4/11/2023 at 12:32 PM, nabokovfan87 said:

That's awesome. Keep up the good work!

Thanks! I will try to keep everyone updated. Kind of funny how in the beginning I thought I could just whip something together and have it done. I was planning on just going to lowes, getting some supplies, and then just whipping it together. I even bought a sheet of acrylic to do it 😂. I also sent that video to Cory asking if he would test it, Thinking it would be done fast. It hasn't been that fast but it is getting done.

[nabokovfan87]

On 4/11/2023 at 12:38 PM, Caidenh24 said:

Thinking it would be done fast. It hasn't been that fast but it is getting done.

You only get one prototype, so the main thing is to take the time to do it right. In terms of engineering, this is the long, slow, important process.

Like your question about glass. It's going to vary for the tank size, thickness, for the tank design (rimmed vs. Rimless).

You'd be looking at.... Tensile strength of glass.

[Caidenh24]

On 4/11/2023 at 1:18 PM, nabokovfan87 said:

You only get one prototype, so the main thing is to take the time to do it right. In terms of engineering, this is the long, slow, important process.

Like your question about glass. It's going to vary for the tank size, thickness, for the tank design (rimmed vs. Rimless).

You'd be looking at.... Tensile strength of glass.

ok thanks! I will see what I can find. I don't think people will be using a HOB filer on a rimless tank though so I won't have to worry about that.

[Odd Duck]

On 4/12/2023 at 10:05 AM, Caidenh24 said:

ok thanks! I will see what I can find. I don't think people will be using a HOB filer on a rimless tank though so I won't have to worry about that.

Sorry to jump in so late, but I hadn’t read through all of this until just now.  I’m sure I’ll miss a couple points but wanted to help where I could.  Just FYI, I have HOB’s on 4 rimless cubes - 14 G and smaller, these are my only rimless tanks.  Each of these HOB’s are slightly oversized for their tanks - the 14 G has an AquaClear 30, the pair of 6 G’s have AquaClear 20’s, and the tiny 2.1 G has a tiny Mignon Filter 60 for up 3.5 gallons.  The 6 G cubes each have pothos just getting a good start growing from the filters.  Each of the filters takes up not quite half of the width of the tank but still lets me clip on a light in the center back.

I would not put my Fluval breeder box on any of my rimless tanks since it holds 0.5 gallons which is 4.17 lbs plus around a pound for the box itself so roughly 5-ish pounds on just a thin piece of glass.  😬

As far as the weight a tank will tolerate, the Aqueon 6 G cubes and the 14 G cube are the same thickness of glass.  The AquaClear 30 holds 900 mls (0.9 kg/1.98 lbs) just before it spills over (just measured).  The unit weighs 1.5 lbs shipped per Amazon so with media that weighs at least slightly more than the water it displaces, minus about 1/2 pound for the box it ships in, figure at least 3-3.5 pounds for filter and water.

The ID on the narrowest part of the uplift tube on my Fluval is just over 8 mm, estimate 8.2 mm (didn’t break out the super sensitive calipers, sorry.  Remember the Fluval uplift tube is a clear, fairly rigid plastic plus an inner, softer plastic piece.  The softer plastic is thicker walled and the ID is only that 8.2 mm.  See attached pics.

In my opinion, even with very high airflow, the uplift tube to the Fluval is too small and there isn’t enough water flow through it.  It would likely be OK for plants, but personally, I would design it with a larger ID tube for better water flow - I would go at least 1/2” ID, which is going to be nearly 3/4” OD if you plan to use soft tubing.  Could be lower OD with a rigid tubing.

Very interesting project and look forward to your final design.

 

 

 

Edited April 12, 2023 by Odd Duck

[Caidenh24]

On 4/12/2023 at 9:40 AM, Odd Duck said:

Sorry to jump in so late, but I hadn’t read through all of this until just now.  I’m sure I’ll miss a couple points but wanted to help where I could.  Just FYI, I have HOB’s on 4 rimless cubes - 14 G and smaller, these are my only rimless tanks.  Each of these HOB’s are slightly oversized for their tanks - the 14 G has an AquaClear 30, the pair of 6 G’s have AquaClear 20’s, and the tiny 2.1 G has a tiny Mignon Filter 60 for up 3.5 gallons.  The 6 G cubes each have pothos just getting a good start growing from the filters.  Each of the filters takes up not quite half of the width of the tank but still lets me clip on a light in the center back.

I would not put my Fluval breeder box on any of my rimless tanks since it holds 0.5 gallons which is 4.17 lbs plus around a pound for the box itself so roughly 5-ish pounds on just a thin piece of glass.  😬

As far as the weight a tank will tolerate, the Aqueon 6 G cubes and the 14 G cube are the same thickness of glass.  The AquaClear 30 holds 900 mls (0.9 kg/1.98 lbs) just before it spills over (just measured).  The unit weighs 1.5 lbs shipped per Amazon so with media that weighs at least slightly more than the water it displaces, minus about 1/2 pound for the box it ships in, figure at least 3-3.5 pounds for filter and water.

 

Thanks for the concern, I think I will definitely have to do some research on the tensile strength of aquariums. Maybe even buy a cheap aquarium that leaks or something from Facebook, and then just keep adding weight until it breaks and then go like 20 pounds under that and call that the (safe range). I just really hope I can pull this off and keep it as a HOB.

 

On 4/12/2023 at 9:40 AM, Odd Duck said:

The ID on the narrowest part of the uplift tube on my Fluval is just over 8 mm, estimate 8.2 mm (didn’t break out the super sensitive calipers, sorry.  Remember the Fluval uplift tube is a clear, fairly rigid plastic plus an inner, softer plastic piece.  The softer plastic is thicker walled and the ID is only that 8.2 mm.  See attached pics.

In my opinion, even with very high airflow, the uplift tube to the Fluval is too small and there isn’t enough water flow through it.  It would likely be OK for plants, but personally, I would design it with a larger ID tube for better water flow - I would go at least 1/2” ID, which is going to be nearly 3/4” OD if you plan to use soft tubing.  Could be lower OD with a rigid tubing.

Very interesting project and look forward to your final design.

 

 

I am planning on making quite a big airlift tube, around the same 1/2 inch inner diameter as you said. Thanks for your opinion I appreciate it!

[Caidenh24]

On 4/11/2023 at 1:18 PM, nabokovfan87 said:

You only get one prototype, so the main thing is to take the time to do it right. In terms of engineering, this is the long, slow, important process.

Like your question about glass. It's going to vary for the tank size, thickness, for the tank design (rimmed vs. Rimless).

You'd be looking at.... Tensile strength of glass.

ok, thanks! why is there only one prototype? I thought people do multiple, like rapid prototyping for example. Also what is the name of the strength if I was to see the weight aquarium glass can hold on top of it? Thanks!

[nabokovfan87]

On 4/12/2023 at 10:49 AM, Caidenh24 said:

ok, thanks! why is there only one prototype? I thought people do multiple, like rapid prototyping for example. Also what is the name of the strength if I was to see the weight aquarium glass can hold on top of it? Thanks!

For testing you'd do a plethora of them. Anywhere from 5-50 and run what is called cycle tests or fatigue tests. There's a few of them that are applicable here. Basically, operation, function, and making sure that the device works as intended and can be repeated.

This is a check for manufacturing issues as well as other things that crop up during the process.

Now... A prototype you basically get one shot. Let's say it's injection molted, you get a short run and then you bring in a batch of parts. You might need to make changes, which happens, but eventually you'd use something like 3d printed parts alongside other prototype methods to create the parts you need. You might machine it on a cnc instead of having an injection molded tool running. Vacuum form parts are a bit easier because you can mod the tool and run those parts a lot more cheaply. The price per part is probably going to be higher, but the up front cost is much lower.

There is a lot of discrepancy when it comes to 3d printed parts due to the plastics shrinking and due to the need to replicate the actual strength of the material itself during testing the final design.  3d printed parts may or may not be solid based on the infill and may or may not be able to fit properly for fit checks.

One method around this is to oversize things a bit and use something like sandpaper and Bondo to get things to a final shape. This also allows you to paint the parts and run samples for the customer to review as a means of showing what it would look like eventually without running parts off a tool.

On 4/12/2023 at 10:49 AM, Caidenh24 said:

Also what is the name of the strength if I was to see the weight aquarium glass can hold on top of it?

Not quite sure I understand what you are asking here specifically. You're asking about the load/stress terminology?

[Caidenh24]

On 4/12/2023 at 3:17 PM, nabokovfan87 said:

For testing you'd do a plethora of them. Anywhere from 5-50 and run what is called cycle tests or fatigue tests. There's a few of them that are applicable here. Basically, operation, function, and making sure that the device works as intended and can be repeated.

This is a check for manufacturing issues as well as other things that crop up during the process.

Now... A prototype you basically get one shot. Let's say it's injection molted, you get a short run and then you bring in a batch of parts. You might need to make changes, which happens, but eventually you'd use something like 3d printed parts alongside other prototype methods to create the parts you need. You might machine it on a cnc instead of having an injection molded tool running. Vacuum form parts are a bit easier because you can mod the tool and run those parts a lot more cheaply. The price per part is probably going to be higher, but the up front cost is much lower.

There is a lot of discrepancy when it comes to 3d printed parts due to the plastics shrinking and due to the need to replicate the actual strength of the material itself during testing the final design.  3d printed parts may or may not be solid based on the infill and may or may not be able to fit properly for fit checks.

One method around this is to oversize things a bit and use something like sandpaper and Bondo to get things to a final shape. This also allows you to paint the parts and run samples for the customer to review as a means of showing what it would look like eventually without running parts off a tool.

Ok thanks! so you basically can't re-edit a prototype easy so you only really do one. And you may be able to add stuff but there is still one prototype basically, right?

On 4/12/2023 at 3:17 PM, nabokovfan87 said:

Not quite sure I understand what you are asking here specifically. You're asking about the load/stress terminology?

Sorry, I didn't know how to best describe it. The image helps. I think I am looking for compression strength because I found out with some research that HOB filters put a vertical downward force on the glass, and I want to test to see if the back of an aquarium could hold my filter. Thanks!

EDIT: Here is what I read that shows that the aquarium can actually hold a lot of weight. The message I am talking about is at the very bottom and it includes a article. Although the article is very engineer like so I don't understand it. http://www.reefsanctuary.com/forum/index.php?threads/how-much-weight-can-the-back-of-a-tank-support.92403/

Edited April 13, 2023 by Caidenh24