Experts needed mysteryalgae ID

[Guppysnail]

Hi all.  When I tested Reverse Respiration we found no algae that did not succumb to initial RR.  This one appears to need longer. 
Algae that it is not :

GSA, HAIR, BBA, STAGHORN, GDA, CYANO, THE GREEN CARPET ALGAE I HAD, DIATOMS, MARIMO ALGAE

Here are microscope pics as well. Under a microscope this does not conform to any we have been able to test. The Chlorophyll-a is crazy more abundant than any I have seen. It also appears to have some form of Chlorophyll transfer between cells.

Marimo algae seems to resist RR. We've found no amount of time or repeated RR sessions that kill marimos. It's been repeatedly demonstrated by multiple laboratories that a similar CO2 treatment of marimos kills 100% of zebra invaders if soaked for no less than 96 hours or 4, consecutive RR treatments. We now know marimos will easily tolerate this.

BUT we'd like to understand why. To that end, this stuff below also was quite RR resistant. It took 3, RR sessions to kill it. We then used a more potent form of RR (see below) where the 2nd bath is alkaline water. This killed this mystery algae in the normal 12-hour periods.

As we encounter more and more plant and alga types, the data base expands and improves. Different times and techniques may be needed for specific plants. 

Would anyone be able to identify what this stuff is?

Mystery Algae Untreated on the Right (the same but RR treated on the left):

 

Mystery Algae (untreated) Under Microscope:

Mystery Algae Killed after RR using Alkaline Water as Bath-2 (actual pH shifting process):

 

Thank you in advance for experts who actually know what this is. 🤗

Edited July 12, 2022 by Guppysnail

[Odd Duck]

A microscopic pic under lower magnification might be helpful for ID.  And a closeup that’s not quite microscopic but shows the gross structure better.  I use “gross” here in the scientific sense, meaning still visible to the eye without magnification (but as close as you can get without going full microscopic).

[Guppysnail]

On 7/12/2022 at 4:31 PM, Odd Duck said:

A microscopic pic under lower magnification might be helpful for ID.  And a closeup that’s not quite microscopic but shows the gross structure better.  I use “gross” here in the scientific sense, meaning still visible to the eye without magnification (but as close as you can get without going full microscopic).

I’ll se what I can do. 

[John Henry]

@Guppysnail what time frame in the video demonstrates chlorophyll transfer between cells?

[Guppysnail]

On 7/12/2022 at 6:55 PM, John Henry said:

@Guppysnail what time frame in the video demonstrates chlorophyll transfer between cells?

Let me get back to you. I may have misunderstood what I was seeing. It may just be that it has more chlorophyll activity and vascular activity than others. 🤷‍♀️ Some of the science stuff gets a little over my head. 

Edited July 12, 2022 by Guppysnail

[Guppysnail]

@John Henry I miss stated the name if what I was seeing. I’m actually not as confused as I thought I was, just old and mix words.  I needed clarification though so I did not confuse myself more. 🤪 It is chloroplasts I saw moving between cells. After the shaking at the 40 second mark and throughout it can be seen. 

[Guppysnail]

 

@Odd Duck I know these are not the scope shots you asked for but does it help?  They would not all upload in one post 

[Odd Duck]

I’m not sure but we’ll see when a real algae expert can chime in.  @Biotope Biologist@OnlyGenusCaps, who else should we tag?  Does it stay that length no matter how long it grows?  Because that makes me think of Marimo ball algae.  🤷🏻‍♀️ 

[nabokovfan87]

Looks similar to what I would see on Scarlet Temple in some cases.  Was this ever found on "narrow" leaves or only wider leaves like bacopa or something that size / larger?

On 7/13/2022 at 4:12 PM, Odd Duck said:

 Does it stay that length no matter how long it grows?

Good question! 🤔

It might not be relevant, but what are the water parameters where you've seen this algae?  I'll check my tanks and see if I have anything lingering still that looks like it, or maybe some old photos.

 

[Guppysnail]

On 7/13/2022 at 7:32 PM, nabokovfan87 said:

Looks similar to what I would see on Scarlet Temple in some cases.  Was this ever found on "narrow" leaves or only wider leaves like bacopa or something that size / larger?

Good question! 🤔

It might not be relevant, but what are the water parameters where you've seen this algae?  I'll check my tanks and see if I have anything lingering still that looks like it, or maybe some old photos.

 

Thanks but parameters in this case are not relevant.  

On 7/13/2022 at 7:12 PM, Odd Duck said:

I’m not sure but we’ll see when a real algae expert can chime in.  @Biotope Biologist@OnlyGenusCaps, who else should we tag?  Does it stay that length no matter how long it grows?  Because that makes me think of Marimo ball algae.  🤷🏻‍♀️ 

It sure was hard to kill just like marimo. Do you know what the science name of that type of algae is or group of algae?  Yup time to call in the big guns 🤣. You already called the two I was thinking 🤗

[Odd Duck]

On 7/13/2022 at 6:44 PM, Guppysnail said:

Thanks but parameters in this case are not relevant.  

It sure was hard to kill just like marimo. Do you know what the science name of that type of algae is or group of algae?  Yup time to call in the big guns 🤣. You already called the two I was thinking 🤗

I don’t remember off the top of my head but google does.  Aegagropila linnaei in the family Pithophoraceae and order Cladophorales.

Wikipedia mentions that Marimo algae has chitin in the cell walls compared to algaes in the genus Cladophora. Chitin is tough and could make an algae harder to kill?

[Odd Duck]

Chitin is more commonly found in fungal cell walls instead of algal cell walls.

[Biotope Biologist]

I’m flattered y’all thought of me, but I am terrible with plants and algae identification!

 

I will stick around and find out though, because I am curious as well

[Guppysnail]

@nabokovfan87 I’m sorry. I just realized I should have clarified more.  Had you heard the 10 dialogue things in my brain it would not have seemed short. Sorry. 🤗Parameters are not important in this case because it deals with why this is the first algae outside of marimo Reverse Respiration  took considerably longer to kill. 

On 7/13/2022 at 8:30 PM, Biotope Biologist said:

I’m flattered y’all thought of me, but I am terrible with plants and algae identification!

 

I will stick around and find out though, because I am curious as well

We always think of you…your AWESOME 😎 

[nabokovfan87]

On 7/13/2022 at 5:31 PM, Guppysnail said:

@nabokovfan87 I’m sorry. I just realized I should have clarified more.  Had you heard the 10 dialogue things in my brain it would not have seemed short. Sorry. 🤗Parameters are not important in this case because it deals with why this is the first algae outside of marimo Reverse Respiration  took considerably longer to kill. 

All good! My mind was thinking about what would entice this specific kind of Algae to grow, where it likes to grow, and the conditions that support it.   (excess nutrients/light, Iron. Etc.) Some algaes show up based on geographic location and I am just trying to understand if it's a hard water vs. Softwater type of thing to try to narrow my search in some way. I forget who the conversation I was having with someone, but the idea being that algae is always introduced was playing on my mind.

I did find one picture of the algae I have seen that's similar but it was just starting to form and not useful to share.

[dasaltemelosguy]

On 7/13/2022 at 5:07 PM, Odd Duck said:

I don’t remember off the top of my head but google does.  Aegagropila linnaei in the family Pithophoraceae and order Cladophorales.

Wikipedia mentions that Marimo algae has chitin in the cell walls compared to algaes in the genus Cladophora. Chitin is tough and could make an algae harder to kill?

You may really be on to something here.  ONLY 'Algae-X' and Marimo's behaved in this manner. Both required multiple RR sessions and took basically the same amount of time to expire, like 3X-5X longer!  Below are the only comparative images I have of Algae-X and a Marimo under a low magnification scope.

I'm no expert but they really do like alike! 

ALGAE-X                                                                                                               MARIMO

   

[Odd Duck]

On 7/13/2022 at 8:34 PM, dasaltemelosguy said:

You may really be on to something here.  ONLY 'Algae-X' and Marimo's behaved in this manner. Both required multiple RR sessions and took basically the same amount of time to expire, like 3X-5X longer!  Below are the only comparative images I have of Algae-X and a Marimo under a low magnification scope.

I'm no expert but they really do like alike! 

ALGAE-X                                                                                                               MARIMO

   

Need to look at Marimo relatives if we can find some info.  I’m not finding it easy to collect information, find pictures, or even good descriptions of related species.

 

[nabokovfan87]

On 7/13/2022 at 7:31 PM, Odd Duck said:

Need to look at Marimo relatives if we can find some info.  I’m not finding it easy to collect information, find pictures, or even good descriptions of related species.

 

Potentially another one to look into.

 

Posted this in the other thread too! But I meant to post this here. I also found this tool:

http://cfb.unh.edu/phycokey/phycokey.htm

Edited July 14, 2022 by nabokovfan87