Testing Time: Fixing the Seachem Tidals Bypass

[TeeJay]

On 11/18/2022 at 3:40 PM, Chick-In-Of-TheSea said:

Bottom

The bottom is solid but there is a basket inside that has slats. 

How it appears in photos is how I unboxed it. I haven’t disassembled anything yet. One of the layers is carbon infused which I will omit.

 

Would you suggest utilizing the gravel or no? I’m thinking just use extra ceramics. @nabokovfan87

Coarse > floss > biomedia, yes?

Right thats the way I set it up. I swapped out the gravel for biomedia. So if you have some extra I would. Just fill that compartment up enough with the media so you can still get the lid on that separates it from the other media.

[Chick-In-Of-TheSea]

On 11/18/2022 at 5:02 PM, TeeJay said:

Right thats the way I set it up. I swapped out the gravel for biomedia. So if you have some extra I would. Just fill that compartment up enough with the media so you can still get the lid on that separates it from the other media.

Yeah awhile ago @nabokovfan87 suggested I toss an extra pouch of ceramics in the tank, and so they now have a purpose. 

[TeeJay]

On 11/18/2022 at 5:11 PM, Chick-In-Of-TheSea said:

Yeah awhile ago @nabokovfan87 suggested I toss an extra pouch of ceramics in the tank, and so they now have a purpose. 

Well your in business. There not bad little filters. I threw the one I had into the tote take for the snails so I have 2 going. One on each side of the tank.

[nabokovfan87]

On 11/18/2022 at 1:41 PM, Chick-In-Of-TheSea said:

@nabokovfan87 the tube is just taking the water/air back out, the water has already been through all the layers by the time the tube gets utilized.

interesting.  You can probably get "more efficient" flow by doing this.  Meaning, you reduce bypass (see how we get back on topic for the thread now! 😉)

Essentially, you force the muck to go from the center of the sponge, then to the outside, to the bottom, then up through the tube.  The section where I said "seal entire layer of grid" you might want to leave the area in red (sealed on top layer) open, so that you do have some flow through the actual ceramic media that is "high flow" but it's hard to say without running some tests.  On the outermost grid, you'd seal the outside border so the muck can't just go straight down the sides.  Minimal issue, but slightly better filtration by modifying the pattern.

Essentially, what you would end up with is:

Top Grid
Course foam
Medium Foam
Fine pad
Center Grid
Ceramic media
Bottom grid
Chemical media
Base layer

[Chick-In-Of-TheSea]

On 11/18/2022 at 5:13 PM, nabokovfan87 said:

Chemical media

What do you mean by chemical media?

Having a hard time following the seal grid instructions. Are you suggesting I cut one of the layers of foam into a different shape (smaller triangle) to allow more water flow? Perhaps the layer closest to the ceramics?

[nabokovfan87]

On 11/18/2022 at 2:51 PM, Chick-In-Of-TheSea said:

What do you mean by chemical media?

Phosphate or carbon pads, chemi-pure pads, or that other one.... purigen.

 

 

On 11/18/2022 at 2:51 PM, Chick-In-Of-TheSea said:

Having a hard time following the seal grid instructions. Are you suggesting I cut one of the layers of foam into a different shape (smaller triangle) to allow more water flow? Perhaps the layer closest to the ceramics?

Sorry, so basically the red section you would fill the plastic with silicone or something. SEAL IT. So water is forced to go into the center region (at the top) and then you seal that middle plate so the water is forced to go from the sponge past the ceramic media and into the tube.  That way the gunk doesn't have an easy path to the media and clog it.   You could also move the fine pad to the bottom of the filter at that point.

[nabokovfan87]

It's finally happening.

ALRIGHT, let's dive into what we have going on.

This would be the BASIC kit I recommend that just about everyone do to their tidals. It requires no permanent changes to the filter and you are simply improving the function and fit of the sponge itself.

It's pretty simple and this applies to every HoB out there, so if you're intimidated at all by cutting foams, let's break it down into very simple steps.

1. Measure your container
2. Mark / cut your foam (rough cut)
3. Finishing features

A lot of times you can "mess up" by cutting the foam too perfect and this just essentially means it's foam and foam isn't like wood or other materials.  It's made to squish and it's flexible for the most part.  It's designed in such a way to fill an area, but it's a solid. So cutting it can be wonky.

In terms of engineering, you're cutting blanks, then using those blanks to cut out what you really are trying to obtain.  This is similar to how you go and buy some plywood or some other cut of wood and then you finalize the shape.

You can do everything with Scissors, but you can also opt to use one of these for the straight cuts. Do I wish I had one, YEP.

I would also recommend using templates out of laminated paper, cardstock, or the file folders.  That type of paper is a bit more robust and you will thank yourself if you do make those templates.  It is a lot easier to trace and follow paper than it is to follow a curved, bumpy foam shape.

For the tidal's specificially, here's my method.

Your template is going to be the "inner lip" inside of the basket.  Absolutely do not take the sponge in there and use that as a template.  Maybe you're the lucky one and it all fits, but let's explain why in a moment here.

Take your paper, your foam or whatever it is that you want to use to transfer the shape over and try to get that general rough shape of the inner lip of that basket.



Once you're there you take that piece and cut out your "basic shape".  Don't worry about bends or curves or anything like that.  You will almost always mess it up if you get too detailed up front, especially with some complex shapes.



We can see the bottom isn't straight, the top is all wonky because you have 3 cuts instead of one across (because of scissors).  There is a "feature" cut out at the point I took this photo, but the goal at this point would be to just have a rectangle.

Next up I am going to straighten out the edges, try to cut out the curve, and cut out the two corner radii you see on the top left / right of the shape.


The radii on the left is a slight bit larger diameter than the one on the right, but you get the idea.

At this point, you would go BACK to your basket and verify the shape.



If we compare this to the original foam, you're looking for about 1/8" larger size overall, especially where the chute cutout is.

As you move higher up in the basket, that dimension would increase with each layer.  With the foam I have, by the time I get to the third layer it's about 1/4" offset on the perimeter from the original foam.  As we saw in the OP as well, the variance on these foams is quite a lot so yours might have an even bigger offset.  This is why we use the hard basket as the outline and not the foam.

The "window cutout" cover is just using scrap pieces of foams and I cut off the bumps so it's 1/4" thick and fits nicely into that area when the media bag is installed against it (holding the foam cover in place).

HOPEFULLY that little walkthrough helps someone one day, but it's very easy to do and extremely rewarding.

Edited November 25, 2022 by nabokovfan87

[Caidenh24]

On 5/22/2022 at 2:30 AM, nabokovfan87 said:

Next up, let's cut out this basket and "attempt" to do it without power tools, without making it look like someone took a chainsaw to the plastic, and without completely destroying the plastic.

My idea was to use pliers.  These, specifically will probably be the best tool for the job.

https://www.homedepot.com/p/Milwaukee-4-75-in-Mini-Flush-Cutters-48-22-6105/305760837

Here is my plan:

Using the pliers, I'd like to cut out these section. Leaving a part of the bottom grid intact but opening the bottom of the container in such a way that we aren't using a drill or relying on small holes (these did not work for me previously, so if you go the drill route, you need at least 1/4" dia holes.

I have the clogged sponges, I have the filter running, and I will show the before and after.  I am not going to clean any sponge, I will simply move the dirty media to the new basket and let it run with the cutouts.

Here is what it ended up looking like:

I may end up taking a file or some sandpaper and cleaning this up a bit, but for now this will "work" for our testing purposes.

Here is the before photo, sponges as they are right now in the filter, and the before video.



The key note here being that the coarse sponge isn't doing much cleaning right now because it's not getting very much flow through the sponge itself. This is very evident when looking at the sponge because while there is "some much" on the surface, it's very light and not something I would expect to be "clogged".  The second foam in the pile, the black one is slightly more fine, and it's pretty much clean without any gunk on it whatsoever.  This is pretty typical.

I also included a photo of the basket.  We see that the filter itself is bypassing very badly before any modification. The input of the pump was actually filling the little black shelf with much as you can see in the video.  This often happens when there is high levels of bypass.
 

Here is the after:

 

You can see that this is a VAST improvement compared to where we started, but there is clearly some severe bypass still happening in the window cutout on the front of the basket. Overall I would call this a "minimal effort" fix for the bypass but I do believe this is not solved by any means. I will be very interested to see how this is running in 36-48 hours and how things change with the next big change.

What does this do and what do you mean by bypassing the media? I just don´t understand the bypass problem and I can´t see it in the videos. Thanks!

On 5/30/2022 at 10:58 PM, nabokovfan87 said:

Update #2 for the week. 

This is going to be, by far the MOST COST EFFECTIVE way for seachem to fix this product in-line.  In terms of the production cost, you remove a cutout, which saves manufacturing time and money.  Second, this is the easiest thing to mail to customers without costing the company itself an arm and a leg to fix.  You would mail out a small envelope of sealant, a small piece of plastic, and directions.  In terms of engineering time, you're talking 3-5 days of testing (if that) and then you're talking about what amounts to 1 day of paperwork and a few months of planning/production cost.  If they modify the hard tool and incorporate this into the design itself, you coordinate with the tooling manufacturer and they rework the tool (if this isn't done on the manufacturing floor).  You then are improving the strength of the part, improving tolerances, improving flow of the part in that area of the tool.  It's a very minor improvement, but the point to drive home here is how minimal effort this actually takes. Anyone who knows how to use the program could get the paperwork done in 2-4 hours and have it released by the end of the day.  This all assumes they verified the testing results and accepted them as an improvement in the design.  This gives you downtime of about, 4-8 weeks and samples are sent for approval.  In total, you're talking about VASTLY changing the flow of the basket, easily modifying something, cheaply fixing it in the field, and reducing cost to make up for the change as a result.

Tier 3a (prep): I couldn't find my sheet of scrap lexan anywhere so I opted to use a piece of scrap trim from an aquarium lid.  We all should have some of these sitting around, and so it's an easy way to patch this hole.  I did use the black silicone here, I do not know if this will hold long term.  Worst case, I can remove it and then use superglue that is fish safe.

I just used a piece of scissors, cut it to size with overlap around the edge and glued it internally as to not disturb fit when loading the basket inside the HoB.



It doesn't look great, I would prefer clear, but for the sake of not making a trip to the store for something I won't see, I'll allow it.

For now, I did opt to leave those other slots open to allow bypass through them.  If they are an issue long term, it won't be difficult to patch them.  I'd like to run some tests at this point after it cures before progressing to fill anything further. 

Edit:  I forgot to mention, if someone has one of these and a 3d printer, might be a nice little side project and take about 10 minutes to measure it.  The "drawing" won't take too much effort in the CAD software and you could easily print these and mail them out if you feel so inclined.  3d printing them gives you the nice added bonus of being able to fill the thickness needed with some precision compared to what is lying around.  I'd probably shoot for .063 thick material if I had to guess.

Update for the sake of the curious: I was checking on the filter flow, bypass, etc. and I noticed the "often rare" bypass by the input chute of the filter.  Here is the video showing off the bypass, demonstrating the cause of the bypass by removing it, and then restarting the bypass to verify that this is the cause.  I'm thankful that I was able to capture this because it shows how detrimental some of these design choices have been for the filter basket and how much it would benefit the design to fix some of these issues.
 

 

 

What is the hole you cut here for? Thanks!

Edited December 5, 2022 by Caidenh24

[nabokovfan87]

On 12/5/2022 at 12:28 PM, Caidenh24 said:

What does this do and what do you mean by bypassing the media? I just don´t understand the bypass problem and I can´t see it in the videos. Thanks!

Bypass just means that instead of the water going through the filter, it's going around everything (path of least resistance) and that results in the water not being cleaned. The gunk goes back into the tank, etc.

In the videos you commonly see the water going through other paths and through things in the filter not intended. Most commonly is the "window cut" which is a big cutout on the side of the media basket, it's just a big opening, bypassing all of the sponge. Second to that, you have the back or top edge of the basket where the water is flowing so strongly that it goes into the hang on back, past the basket, and then over the sides. Turning down flow can reduce this issues, but over time it is unavoidable with this design.

On 12/5/2022 at 12:28 PM, Caidenh24 said:

What is the hole you cut here for? Thanks

So the cutouts in the bottom of the basket are to improve flow. This is done without using any silicone on anything and just removing part of the grille on the basket. Because the other paths of the filter are easier (path of least resistance) this means that water wants to ignore the opening in the bottom of the basket and then continue up towards the window cut and over the sides of the basket.

Opening up the grille on the bottom of the basket means that the water has a better chance of going into the sponge and the filter media.

[nabokovfan87]

In the video at the end what you're seeing is a piece of sponge I use to cover the window cutout and how the water was flowing over the basket by the chute. When I removed the sponge, released some of the opening where the window cutout is, that means it no longer goes up the chute area but goes out the window in the left side corner of the basket. Bypassing all of the sponge underneath and you can see how strong the flow is through the window.

I add the sponge back, forcing the water to be filtered through the Sponge, which then we see water come out of the chute again over the sides of the basket. Bypassing.

[Chick-In-Of-TheSea]

Does bypass occur when the filter is unmodded and using default media (ie: cartridges) and can you replicate cartridge use to prevent bypass? I remember those DIY cartridge kits where you’d get a frame and a floss pouch that slides over it, and you can fill that pouch with what you want (generally carbon was recommended, as manufacturers tend to do, to promote water clarity, but as we know, carbon is no bueno for plants). The frame had a little clip to hold the pouch in place.

It could be filled with Phospure granules! Hmm…

Edited December 6, 2022 by Chick-In-Of-TheSea

[nabokovfan87]

On 12/5/2022 at 7:36 PM, Chick-In-Of-TheSea said:

Does bypass occur when the filter is unmodded and using default media (ie: cartridges) and can you replicate cartridge use to prevent bypass?

No cartridges on this filter by default. And yes, bypass at default is there. No rails to hold cartridges  in place either.

I think marineland might have cartridges like that but id have to check.

 

Edited December 6, 2022 by nabokovfan87

[Chick-In-Of-TheSea]

On 12/5/2022 at 11:40 PM, nabokovfan87 said:

bypass at default is there

😐

[Caidenh24]

On 12/5/2022 at 4:19 PM, nabokovfan87 said:

Second to that, you have the back or top edge of the basket where the water is flowing so strongly that it goes into the hang on back, past the basket, and then over the sides. Turning down flow can reduce this issues, but over time it is unavoidable with this design.

What is the hang on back? Is that the part that hangs over the tank? By basket do you mean th white one? Thanks!

 

On 12/5/2022 at 4:19 PM, nabokovfan87 said:

So the cutouts in the bottom of the basket are to improve flow. This is done without using any silicone on anything and just removing part of the grille on the basket. Because the other paths of the filter are easier (path of least resistance) this means that water wants to ignore the opening in the bottom of the basket and then continue up towards the window cut and over the sides of the basket.

Opening up the grille on the bottom of the basket means that the water has a better chance of going into the sponge and the filter media.

Ok that makes sense. What about the hole that you cut then put a clear piece of a fish tank lid over? Thanks!

[Caidenh24]

You did a lot of edits with like the flow control and where you put the media. Do you recommend that I do those things to my filter or what does it do? Thanks!

[nabokovfan87]

On 12/6/2022 at 5:20 PM, Caidenh24 said:

What is the hang on back? Is that the part that hangs over the tank? By basket do you mean th white one? Thanks!

Correct. Yes. Hang on back is just the type of filter. Hang on back filter.

The basket, white one, is the media basket for this specific filter.

On 12/6/2022 at 5:20 PM, Caidenh24 said:

Ok that makes sense. What about the hole that you cut then put a clear piece of a fish tank lid over? Thanks!

That is the "window cut" that I refer to. It's one of the main locations for bypass on this filter. If you can, I'd recommend filling it. If you can't, then cover it with sponge to make sure the water flowing through there goes through sponge at least.

On 12/6/2022 at 5:53 PM, Caidenh24 said:

You did a lot of edits with like the flow control and where you put the media. Do you recommend that I do those things to my filter or what does it do? Thanks!

Essentially it works a lot better. Can you do them, yeah, would I recommend all of them, yeah. I am not done testing, but I do need to concisely state my recommendations for modding the filter.

In your case, your main issue is the skimmer. Just fill that and leave the rest for right now. Of you want to start by modding the basket that's a good choice.

[Caidenh24]

On 12/6/2022 at 6:00 PM, nabokovfan87 said:

Correct. Yes. Hang on back is just the type of filter. Hang on back filter.

The basket, white one, is the media basket for this specific filter.

That is the "window cut" that I refer to. It's one of the main locations for bypass on this filter. If you can, I'd recommend filling it. If you can't, then cover it with sponge to make sure the water flowing through there goes through sponge at least.

Essentially it works a lot better. Can you do them, yeah, would I recommend all of them, yeah. I am not done testing, but I do need to concisely state my recommendations for modding the filter.

In your case, your main issue is the skimmer. Just fill that and leave the rest for right now. Of you want to start by modding the basket that's a good choice.

ok thanks! Does blocking the surface skimmer make the flow less? Thanks!

[nabokovfan87]

On 12/6/2022 at 6:25 PM, Caidenh24 said:

ok thanks! Does blocking the surface skimmer make the flow less? Thanks!

No. it simply changes where the water comes in from. Right now, the majority of the water input is in the skimmer. As opposed to the intake tube or mid-skimmer around the pump.

All it is going to do is add some more "ooomph" to the ability of the pump to filter the water column as opposed to the surface. And no.... you won't have surface scum issues.

[Caidenh24]

On 12/6/2022 at 7:06 PM, nabokovfan87 said:

No. it simply changes where the water comes in from. Right now, the majority of the water input is in the skimmer. As opposed to the intake tube or mid-skimmer around the pump.

All it is going to do is add some more "ooomph" to the ability of the pump to filter the water column as opposed to the surface. And no.... you won't have surface scum issues.

ok thanks! how do I prepare the surface? I don´t have alcohol. I have hand cleansing wipes. Or clorox wipes. or hydrogen peroxide. unless its not needed to clean the surface. Thanks!

[nabokovfan87]

On 12/6/2022 at 7:49 PM, Caidenh24 said:

how do I prepare the surface? I don´t have alcohol. I have hand cleansing wipes. Or clorox wipes. or hydrogen peroxide. unless its not needed to clean the surface. Thanks!

Clean it as best you can. isopropyl works. If you don't have either of those, just use water. Make sure it's clean, let it dry, then apply the silicone.

Edited December 7, 2022 by nabokovfan87

[Caidenh24]

On 12/6/2022 at 9:16 PM, nabokovfan87 said:

Clean it as best you can. isopropyl works. If you don't have either of those, just use water. Make sure it's clean, let it dry, then apply the silicone.

oh I used hydrogen peroxide because I looked it up an it said it is a substitute for cleaning. It will probably work all right.

[nabokovfan87]

Yep. That's basically water. Just let it dry fully.

You're going to need a bit more than you think to cover the gap but not difficult at all.

[Caidenh24]

On 12/6/2022 at 9:32 PM, nabokovfan87 said:

Yep. That's basically water. Just let it dry fully.

You're going to need a bit more than you think to cover the gap but not difficult at all.

oh I already put it on. Can I add more if it doesn't work or should I try putting more on now? It has only been like 2 hours. Thanks!

[nabokovfan87]

On 12/6/2022 at 10:18 PM, Caidenh24 said:

oh I already put it on. Can I add more if it doesn't work or should I try putting more on now? It has only been like 2 hours. Thanks!

Yes, let it cure fully then add more. If you see gaps now add more now. I let mine cure so the lines were parallel to the table to try to reduce it falling into the cavity.

 

Like this.

Edited December 7, 2022 by nabokovfan87

[Caidenh24]

On 12/6/2022 at 11:24 PM, nabokovfan87 said:

Yes, let it cure fully then add more. If you see gaps now add gaps. I let mine cure so the lines were parallel to the table to try to reduce it falling into the cavity.

 

Like this.

ok thanks!