Testing Time: Fixing the Seachem Tidals Bypass

[nabokovfan87]

On 12/6/2022 at 11:48 PM, Caidenh24 said:

ok thanks!

Sorry about that. Typo. If you see gaps now. Then add more silicone now.

I see @TeeJayis keeping me in suspense on whether or not my tidal 35 fix is legitimately good or not 🙂 .

Needless to say, I'm excited to get another perspective and to have another analysis of the "version 1" fix where no adhesive or cutting is done to improve the filter.

Take your time, let me know when you have some thoughts on the setup.

[Caidenh24]

On 12/7/2022 at 12:01 AM, nabokovfan87 said:

Sorry about that. Typo. If you see gaps now. Then add more silicone now.

I see @TeeJayis keeping me in suspense on whether or not my tidal 35 fix is legitimately good or not 🙂 .

Needless to say, I'm excited to get another perspective and to have another analysis of the "version 1" fix where no adhesive or cutting is done to improve the filter.

Take your time, let me know when you have some thoughts on the setup.

Its ok I understood what you meant. Thanks!

[MattyM]

After running this filter in various configurations, I had the best success with this setup: Polyfill on the bottom, then Matrix, then Purigen. I cut a coarse sponge intake for behind the skimmer slots. That worked well, but compared to the AC30 the media basket just seemed too small for me. 

I decided to boot this filter to a backup when I noticed that Amazon is selling AC50's for $30. With some silicone lube on the impeller shaft (which I had to do on my Tidal as well to quiet it down), it's basically silent. And it has a down-spout! Whoo-hooo! 

[nabokovfan87]

They both definitely have their quirks. @MattyMi

I have tried all the ACs too for a very long time and always had issues. The 55 and 75 we're fine for me, but they all have similar issues long term.

When it comes to the tidal, yep, it definitely isn't perfect. But, in my use I can run a ton of these and they are silent. ACs rattle on the lid, the pump, air in the pump, so many things happen.

With the tidal, even unmodded, water to a certain line, make sure it's clean, absolutely silent.

[MattyM]

On 12/14/2022 at 12:24 PM, nabokovfan87 said:

ACs rattle on the lid, the pump...

My Tidal did all these! Even the lid rattle lol - I'd have to just tap it with my finger to quiet it. The motor was noisy out of the box, even under water, until I lubed and re-set the impeller. Oh well, live and learn. Maybe I got a lemon or a repackaged one. 

[Chick-In-Of-TheSea]

On 12/14/2022 at 1:34 PM, MattyM said:

My Tidal did all these! Even the lid rattle lol - I'd have to just tap it with my finger to quiet it. The motor was noisy out of the box, even under water, until I lubed and re-set the impeller. Oh well, live and learn. Maybe I got a lemon or a repackaged one. 

Irene from aquarium co op wraps a rubber band around her lid to quiet the noise.  Not sure what type of HOB she has, but maybe that little hack would work for the Tidal?

On 12/14/2022 at 1:24 PM, nabokovfan87 said:

I have tried all the ACs too for a very long time and always had issues

The AC... grr... dumps all the water every power outage and runs dry all day if power comes back on while I'm at work.  No thank you.  Take a hike, AquaClear!

Been running this same Marina biowheel for, let's see.. since 2006 at least.  Probably longer than that.  Pretty sure it has been through a few moves before that from say, 1999-2006.  I don't think I've bought any other filter. And..!  You're going to cringe at this @nabokovfan87... I only cleaned the impeller one time.  🤣  (Disclosure.. I did not use/run the filter for 5 of those years because I moved and tank was decommissioned for a time)

Only reason I bought the AC earlier this year was because when I did clean the impeller in like spring this year (yep, this was the only time I cleaned it 🙂) - I didn't quite seat it properly, but it worked fine for a few days, then quit.  But really it didn't quit.  I just thought it did.  Took apart, reassembled carefully, still working like a dream.  

I'm never cleaning that impeller again!  I had problems when I cleaned it!  Let's avoid problems and not clean impellers!  I want to start a movement!

Edited December 14, 2022 by Chick-In-Of-TheSea

[MattyM]

On 12/14/2022 at 1:06 PM, Chick-In-Of-TheSea said:

wraps a rubber band around her lid to quiet the noise

Yup, that's what I do. I also keep my water level pretty high, never had an AC fail to re-prime - at least the smaller ones. 

What's your preferred HOB @Chick-In-Of-TheSea?

[Chick-In-Of-TheSea]

On 12/14/2022 at 2:09 PM, MattyM said:

What's your preferred HOB

I added more to my post above - it's the Marina Penguin Biowheel.

[nabokovfan87]

On 12/14/2022 at 10:34 AM, MattyM said:

My Tidal did all these! Even the lid rattle lol - I'd have to just tap it with my finger to quiet it. The motor was noisy out of the box, even under water, until I lubed and re-set the impeller. Oh well, live and learn. Maybe I got a lemon or a repackaged one. 

If you still have it, guaranteed we can fix it. No worries at all. 🙂

 

On 12/14/2022 at 11:06 AM, Chick-In-Of-TheSea said:

Been running this same Marina biowheel for, let's see.. since 2006 at least.  Probably longer than that.  Pretty sure it has been through a few moves before that from say, 1999-2006.  I don't think I've bought any other filter. And..!  You're going to cringe at this @nabokovfan87... I only cleaned the impeller one time.  🤣  (Disclosure.. I did not use/run the filter for 5 of those years because I moved and tank was decommissioned for a time)

Fun fact, it's not an aquaclear that's why!  😂 

I used ACs for a long time and having spares around for the "oh crap" moments was normal. As soon as I touched it I needed a new pump/impeller.  For the 110 that is.  Other ones, I just had anxiety over it.  I would always remove the little grey cover plate to clean that cavity where all the junk settles, not necessarily a full disassembly because it itsn't easy when installed on the back of a tank to clean an AC fully. 

 

On 12/14/2022 at 11:06 AM, Chick-In-Of-TheSea said:

I'm never cleaning that impeller again!  I had problems when I cleaned it!  Let's avoid problems and not clean impellers!  I want to start a movement!

Edited December 15, 2022 by nabokovfan87

[MattyM]

On 12/14/2022 at 7:34 PM, nabokovfan87 said:

If you still have it, guaranteed we can fix it. No worries at all.

I got it fixed 👍

I just think the Tidal 35 is more trouble than it's worth for me, I mean - look at al the effort that's gone into this topic. But we'll see how I feel as time goes by. 

[nabokovfan87]

On 12/15/2022 at 8:36 AM, MattyM said:

I got it fixed 👍

I just think the Tidal 35 is more trouble than it's worth for me, I mean - look at al the effort that's gone into this topic. But we'll see how I feel as time goes by. 

I hear you.  The tidal 35 has a very, very specific use case.  I would almost always get the 55 and turn it way down, but often that's just not practical.  I would likely only use the 35 on QT / Plant only type of tanks.  I replaced the sponges, added one to cover the basket, no mods really to change anything else.  Not to say I wouldn't redesign it, but just that's what the deal is with that one.  It's pretty terrible design. Same mistakes made on the bigger filters repeated on the lower one (and emphasized with the gigantic gap on the intake).

One of the main issues with the 35, you cannot run it on it's own because you will have surface scum.  You need a skimmer or airstone with that setup at all times, in my testing.

[nabokovfan87]

Well, I discovered something new today....

The basket floats.   I know, I know.... this isn't a relevation, but it was the first time I've seen it.  I did a video showing a few things here.  Let's take a look and I'll try to break down what we're seeing.
 

1.  The filter on maintenance day as it was running and how it was set.  I wanted to visually check bypass and how things were flowing.  Needless to say, there wasn't a ton of bypass and there was a lot of flow going through the sponges.

2.  This filter does have slightly more of the matrix in the bag than usual, but turning the filter up I realized it was running at about 30-40% of it's normal flow rate.   The interesting thing there being that once I turned things up I saw bypass in a few main sections.  The "handle" on the right, the back right corner, the left rear section of the basket, and the chute output.  Hopefully all of these sections are shown and easy to see, I apologize if they aren't.

3.  I wanted to show the basket itself floating and it doesn't play well on the video at first, but eventually I think I was able to get the shot.

4.  I wanted to show what the sponges looked like, amount of junk in them.  The basket itself is doing well, the pump is generally clean, and I am happy with this amount of detritus being sucked into the filter per week.

5.  I tried to show how much came out of each sponge.  I would expect the black (medium-fine) sponge to have the most stuff, but it's often the blue (course) sponge that does end up with a lot of detritus.  Generally speaking, the pre-filter has about 50% of the weekly detritus, the blue sponge has another 30-45% of the detritus, and the black sponge is just generally there but has been grabbing a bit more detritus these days, around 5-10%.

Let's talk about the specific bypass locations and why those are happening.....
A.  Chute bypass
This is essentially a direct result of the basket floating, water is trying to enter the filter box and is designed to flow downward, some water is pushed up and over the black plastic resulting in pooling near the chute as well as bypass.  Without forcing the housing itself to have a piece which forces the water downward, this one is very difficult to fix easily.
B.  Left Side - Rear bypass
This one is where we see water "overflow" beyond the edge of the basked.  We can sometimes move this one into the final category of improper setup, but I do want to specifically mention that after the right side - rear bypass is happening and there is some excess flow due to porosity of the sponge, you would then expect to see this secondary bypass as a result. More than anything, seeing this bypass under a correct setup means that you are getting some resistance in the filter foam regions causing an issue where the water must go elsewhere due to the power of the pump.  Solution.... turn the pump down or increase porosity of the sponge.
C.  Right Side - Rear bypass
This is just going to be the most common form of bypass we see once you address the window cutout.  The flow of the filter box is so designed that water is dumping into the box at a very high rate, it goes down the chute to the right side of the filter box, then upward to this right side corner.  Because of that flow path, this is the single easiest way for the water to overflow over the lip of the filter basket.  The most common indication that bypass is happening is that your filter media bag will have a lot of detritus on it.  This is a clear indication of unfiltered water landing on the topmost surface of the filter bag.  This is a type of bypass that has been the focus of these experiments to try to address. One method would be for Seachem to add some baffles to the bottom of the filter box to diffuse and slow down the flow.  Secondly, the user can reduce the flow to keep this from happening.  Usually you'll need to reduce the flow by 10-20%.
D.  Right Side - Handle Bypass
This one falls into the category of indicating an issue, not a main form of bypass.  We have seen it happen a few times.  The extent of this is such that the normal main bypass (that back right corner) expands as the foams clog and that bypass widens to include water flowing over the handle.  The way to fix this one is going to be similar, increase porosity of the foams or go ahead and slightly reduce the flow.
E.  Other Bypass (not mentioned or shown in this demo)
If you are seeing other bypass, the main thing here is to start by cleaning out the foams.  Second, check the level of the filter itself to ensure it's not leaning forwards or backwards.  If that doesn't fix the solution, than the issue is very likely that your basket itself is too full.  Too much ceramic/matrix in the bag or the bag itself isn't folded over and is holding some air resulting in the displacement where the water level is slightly too high on the filter box.

Generally speaking, I do have 1-2 more tests I want to run and see how this helps things.  I might even try running just the blue sponge.  I don't like running one single layer of sponge because it usually doesn't work well enough with the porosity needed.  I will need to, I owe this thread, a breakdown of the things I do in a day to day basis throughout the week of using this filter.  I will also need to give out a recommended mods, recommended maintenance plan, as well as (potentially) some sort of a final design analysis and review of the product.

The goal here, and the obvious question being, "what filter do you recommend, what works best?"

It's not a simple answer and I do feel slightly conflicted with certain recommendations for a variety of reasons.  I would be very, very, very interested to run a side by side test with a particular pair of filters and be able to show performance comparisons.  In a testing lab, that's an easy task, but for me, right now, it just isn't possible.  Maybe that happens in the future.

Edited December 19, 2022 by nabokovfan87

[MattyM]

@nabokovfan87 I love how all your vids are shot like some sort of X-Files investigation 🔦

[nabokovfan87]

On 12/19/2022 at 8:19 AM, MattyM said:

@nabokovfan87 I love how all your vids are shot like some sort of X-Files investigation 🔦

I even have the new overhead lights, didn't help.  We are investigating, so that's a good thing!

[nabokovfan87]

On this past week of testing the setup I had ~5-6 days before the maintenance indicator went off.  I still don't think it's possible to run it for more than 5 days "without incident" so to speak, but I am running one final test.  I want to put together an FAQ post for this thread as well as work on my final thoughts here shortly.  I need to compress / compile everything into a nice clean format. 

I took some photos of the cleanout today, but based on results I don't really think it's a valuable comparison.  What is interesting is that based on where you find the muck when cleaning things, it can be an indication of how well the filter is running.  If the prefilter is really clogged up with muck, that's an indication to me about how well the pump is doing.  If the sponge internally has more gunk, it's a sign for me to go ahead and check the pump for any issues or reasons of low flow. (or to just make sure the pump isn't turned down too low)

I did see some surface scum, I'll continue to monitor that for the next couple of cleanings.

[nabokovfan87]

Day two? Yeah. Day two. So 48 hours and we have SEVERE bypass. Optimized filter, pump is spotless and lubricated, the impeller is clean. The basket was verified to be level and to be in place and to be setup such a way that it's as optimal as I can make it.

I'll explain in a future post or later in this one, but the filter is able to be adjusted 5.5-6 levels. Let's just call it six for the sake of ease. Each adjustment I make drops the flow by 1/6 or just over 15%.  This is sort of the only way I can control flow as a variable and across the board for all testing purposes.

When I checked the basket the main culprit wasn't just the back right corner but the entire back edge of the basket area. This is troubling and I'll try to determine what's going on a bit further tomorrow. I will also check and verify the sponge, probably clean everything even though it was just done.

As you can see, we do have spillage/bypass on both the right and left corners of the basket. The media itself might be too full, but we do have everything below the media line that I use. Removing some may help and that can be something we transition to testing now.

In terms of sponge, this is 2x course (slightly course) foam that is reticulated and cut to fit the basket properly. Normally I run 1 course and 1 medium, but this specific "final test" setup is trying to remove that medium sponge as a flow issue factor.

More to come....

In terms of flow adjustment, I turn the flow fully on, I use the indentation on the dial with my finger and push one indentation as far leftward as I can without too much force or hassle. You can see the setting right now, but I've gone ahead and indicated my marks so we have a common language for adjustment purposes.

Edited January 4, 2023 by nabokovfan87

[Chick-In-Of-TheSea]

On 1/4/2023 at 3:21 AM, nabokovfan87 said:

Day two? Yeah. Day two. So 48 hours and we have SEVERE bypass. Optimized filter, pump is spotless and lubricated, the impeller is clean. The basket was verified to be level and to be in place and to be setup such a way that it's as optimal as I can make it.

I'll explain in a future post or later in this one, but the filter is able to be adjusted 5.5-6 levels. Let's just call it six for the sake of ease. Each adjustment I make drops the flow by 1/6 or just over 15%.  This is sort of the only way I can control flow as a variable and across the board for all testing purposes.

When I checked the basket the main culprit wasn't just the back right corner but the entire back edge of the basket area. This is troubling and I'll try to determine what's going on a bit further tomorrow. I will also check and verify the sponge, probably clean everything even though it was just done.

As you can see, we do have spillage/bypass on both the right and left corners of the basket. The media itself might be too full, but we do have everything below the media line that I use. Removing some may help and that can be something we transition to testing now.

In terms of sponge, this is 2x course (slightly course) foam that is reticulated and cut to fit the basket properly. Normally I run 1 course and 1 medium, but this specific "final test" setup is trying to remove that medium sponge as a flow issue factor.

More to come....

In terms of flow adjustment, I turn the flow fully on, I use the indentation on the dial with my finger and push one indentation as far leftward as I can without too much force or hassle. You can see the setting right now, but I've gone ahead and indicated my marks so we have a common language for adjustment purposes.

RE: media too full

Did you leave a gap?  When you helped me w/ my filter you said leave a gap where the water first enters the filter.  I'm assuming your water enters from the bottom and goes up through the basket.  Do you have ceramics at the bottom so there is some space for water movement?

[nabokovfan87]

On 1/4/2023 at 7:31 AM, Chick-In-Of-TheSea said:

Did you leave a gap?  When you helped me w/ my filter you said leave a gap where the water first enters the filter.  I'm assuming your water enters from the bottom and goes up through the basket.  Do you have ceramics at the bottom so there is some space for water movement?

Nothing in the bottom (I was testing using mech or similar to slow the flow and act as a baffle, didn't work).

The difference between what your setup is compared to the tidal is the left to right, back to front flow.  This one has a gap around the basket and that actually causing issues.

Water enters the HoB and should be forced down, then that goes into the bottom of the basket and then that is supposed to flow up through the media and out of the basket. Similar to how most canister filters work, almost exactly, but it's something able to hang on the tank.

I'll start messing with things here shortly, but given the setup it should've helped with flow or remained unchanged. That's the fuss with this thing.... You can literally just clean it and have worse results.  The PPI on the ACO sponge is something like 10-15 ppi. For the default seachem sponge let's say it's 20-30. For the bumpy foam I have let's say it's 30 ppi.  There's a slight difference depending what I have and the weight of the media bag compresses things. So even though the sponge is a certain setup, that might be compressed and choking out some of the foams. If I remove the media bag and everything is fine, then it's media related. If I remove it and nothing changes, then let's blame that on the interaction of the pump and the foam itself.

[Chick-In-Of-TheSea]

On 1/4/2023 at 1:53 PM, nabokovfan87 said:

Nothing in the bottom (I was testing using mech or similar to slow the flow and act as a baffle, didn't work).

The difference between what your setup is compared to the tidal is the left to right, back to front flow.  This one has a gap around the basket and that actually causing issues.

Water enters the HoB and should be forced down, then that goes into the bottom of the basket and then that is supposed to flow up through the media and out of the basket. Similar to how most canister filters work, almost exactly, but it's something able to hang on the tank.

I'll start messing with things here shortly, but given the setup it should've helped with flow or remained unchanged. That's the fuss with this thing.... You can literally just clean it and have worse results.  The PPI on the ACO sponge is something like 10-15 ppi. For the default seachem sponge let's say it's 20-30. For the bumpy foam I have let's say it's 30 ppi.  There's a slight difference depending what I have and the weight of the media bag compresses things. So even though the sponge is a certain setup, that might be compressed and choking out some of the foams. If I remove the media bag and everything is fine, then it's media related. If I remove it and nothing changes, then let's blame that on the interaction of the pump and the foam itself.

In this vid, it seems to be operating properly at 3:00, but at 3:04 major bypass.  All based on flow rate rather than media.

 

[nabokovfan87]

On 1/4/2023 at 12:21 PM, Chick-In-Of-TheSea said:

In this vid, it seems to be operating properly at 3:00, but at 3:04 major bypass.  All based on flow rate rather than media.

Correct. Based on how "adjusted down" the pump is determines that.  Often, if you clean the pump and it's going full flow, you just have bypass.  All the holes normally there that hide it are plugged and so it has nowhere to go but the outside.  If I had a rubber gasket around the basket or a very tight fit that would help a lot to stop the.... "path of least resistance" and force the water through the media.

Let's say at go, 95% of the water goes through the sponge, then over a few days we see this change...

Day 0: 95% through the media
Day 1: 90% through the media
Day 2: 80% through the media
Day 3: 70% through the media
etc....

If we adjust the pump down by 20% the hope is:
Day 0: 100% through the media
Day 1: 100% through the media
Day 2: 95% through the media
Day 3: 90% through the media
etc.....

I have come to terms there are some issues I am just not going to resolve, but the question now is what is worth fixing (solved that) and what is the result (solved that).  Now we are at the third part of that equation, trying to figure out what things can be done to tune everything we've worked on to this point.

As an aside....

On the Tidal 55, 75, 110 you have no choice but to plug the skimmer, fix the intake, fix the basket, etc.

On the Tidal 35 you literally do not have that option due to the way it's designed.  BUT, because of the pump on the 35 being slightly less crazy, the basket fitting better, and the cutouts being removed or smaller, you actually can get pretty optimal performance by replacing only foams.  It's part of what I am anxiously waiting to hear what @TeeJay thinks when he has had a month (or a few) running the new foams to see if he notices a big improvement or nothing at all.

Things like how chunky is the water, how slimy is the pump, how well does the prefilter work, all play a role here in how long the bypass is slowed down.  Hopefully we can sort that out, but for now there is a lot of trial an error testing.

In terms of pump flow vs. design application in the real world, this is what you're looking at.  My 35 I've ran on a 10G as well as a 20G. On the 55 I've ran that on a 20, 29, 55, and it didn't fit on the 75G (never had a 40B).  On the 75 I've ran that on a 29, 55, 75.  Never had a 110.  When I ran my 75, I ended up with 2x 75G and I also tried the Aquaclear 110, but did not prefer having 1 HoB. 

[Theplatymaster]

The tidals definetly have some issues, even the maintenance doohicky doesnt work. If you remove the basket for maintenance, but keep the filter running,  when you put the basket back in, just pushing out the water activates the doohicky. I kinda regret getting the tidal. But i saw initial unboxing videos on youtube, and thought it sounded good, but if i was smarter i wouldve gotten a different HOB like an Aquaclear, or Oase.

[Chick-In-Of-TheSea]

On 1/4/2023 at 3:35 PM, nabokovfan87 said:

If I had a rubber gasket around the basket

Can you run airline tubing around the basket? Perhaps even cut the airline tubing in half lengthwise if you need it to be smaller.  

(Maybe these ideas are lame) 😅

 

Edited January 4, 2023 by Chick-In-Of-TheSea

[nabokovfan87]

On 1/4/2023 at 1:16 PM, Chick-In-Of-TheSea said:

Can you run airline tubing around the basket?

has definitely crossed my mind. As well as finding some O rings that would just fit around it... Or a bead of silicone at the top just for testing purposes.

It's one of those choices I have to mull over for the "is it worth it" category.  If we accept 5-10% bypass for full flow, after a week, maybe that's ok.  I need to dive into what exactly, specifically is causing the weirdness.  I think right now crushing the sponge is a big determining factor as well as porosity. I have what I have on hand, but there are ways we can adapt.  When I take things apart I'll show you a side by side of the foams, one has been running for ~2 years or so and the other is brand new.  Major differences.

[Chick-In-Of-TheSea]

The glass food storage containers have removable gaskets inside the lid

[nabokovfan87]

On 1/4/2023 at 10:53 AM, nabokovfan87 said:

If I remove the media bag and everything is fine, then it's media related. If I remove it and nothing changes, then let's blame that on the interaction of the pump and the foam itself.

I won't spoil the result but needless to say, I've spent a lot of time adjusting this thing. 😂
 

I went ahead and sorted through, removing about 20% and then brought everything back.  That's the second cut in the video.  I also adjusted the dial down from full power, down one notch" so people can see what that looks like.  As always, sorry for the lighting and the camera issues. 

After the adjustments yesterday upon discovering the issue....
A.  Adjusted the bag so the media was flat / as low as possible
B.  Verified flow
C.  Checked both twice.

When I went back today you can see the bypass had changed.  Why?  No idea, on / off cycle during feeding maybe, but nothing else had changed.  Today we see the bypass at the top of the chute and then a little bit by the back right corner (expected).

It usually takes about 30-45 minutes for the filter to fully adapt to any changes, so I'll go ahead and check it again here shortly after removing some of the media.  Keep in mind, this bag had extra media from the tidal 35 I tore down.  Not really a lot, but it goes to show you how ridiculous the bag size is given that you can't really pack it full.  The media in the filter itself, you can't really pack it full.  Simply put, too much displacement leads to bypass and if you're trying to avoid bypass, that's a contributing factor. 

I'll let it run a bit more until we see the indicator pop up again.

EDIT:

WELL.... it's already halfway up.  It's basically just water around the basket (not bypass).  I'll keep an eye on it.  Very annoying, and maybe there is a way I can mod the indicator.  🤔

Edited January 5, 2023 by nabokovfan87