Tank water too clean?

[FeatherlessBiped]

So I am unsure/curious about this. My grandma set up a new tank about three months ago for her angelfish and recently began trying to add more. They all came from the same pet store and of the four total she bought only one survived. Of the first two, one had notable deformities and died within a few days because it couldn't swim properly and kept ramming into the tank walls. While the last two she purchased a few days ago, along with two silver dollars for the same tank and a goldfish for her goldfish tank. 

The silver dollars and the goldfish are doing perfectly well, but the two angelfish died the next day. She tried to get a refund for the angelfish and the pet store had her bring in some tank water to be tested. 

According to them, there's 0ppm of ammonia, nitrite, and nitrate in her tank. The employee said the fish died because her tank is too clean and that there's no nitrogen cycle going on.

The tank water does get cloudy very quickly, but I'm pretty sure that's because my grandma has a tendency to overfeed. That being said, I'm pretty new to the hobby so I don't know much about the nitrogen cycle beyond the basics. 

My grandma is very discouraged and might stop keeping angelfish. The thing is, she's been successful in keeping angelfish in the past. 

I've never heard of tank water being too clean and want to know if that was the pet store talking bs or if there is a potential legitimate issue that could harm the (seemingly healthy) fish still in the tank. It would be terrible if more fish died,  she's already extremely stressed from other non fish related things and took these deaths pretty hard. 

[ange]

What they said had some truth but even more misinterpretation. The test indicated that her tank was uncycled but that doesn't mean that her water is too clean, it means that there isn't a biological filter. This puts the burden on your grandmother to either change the water more often than normal while the cycle becomes established or find another way to neutralize ammonia when it spikes because there are no nitrifying bacteria to break it down.

Overfeeding and fish waste will both cause ammonia spikes when there are no nitrifying bacteria to keep it in check. Signs of ammonia spike that don't require a test kit include gill burn and "gasping" at the top of the tank.

[FeatherlessBiped]

On 3/28/2022 at 5:28 AM, ange said:

Signs of ammonia spike that don't require a test kit include gill burn and "gasping" at the top of the tank.

I see! The surviving fish haven't shown such signs, are some fish more impervious to ammonia spikes than others?

[Guppysnail]

I seem to have misread your original post. I apologize.  Disregard my info.  I still hope she does not get discouraged. 
 

Some fish are much more tolerant to ammonia. The cloudiness is a bacterial bloom that is the start of the nitrogen cycle. This is one video that may help explain and there are many more available.  What happens when you put fish in a tank not cycled is called a fish in cycle to help you search for how to videos and information.  Fish in cycling can be done but requires extra water changes and testing. API master test kit is a good kit to use. Prices are usually cheapest for me on chewy online. I hope she does not get discouraged.  It is quite a bit to learn at first. Feed sparingly at first to minimize ammonia spikes which will then turn to nitrite spikes and finally end at nitrates once your cycling is going. 

 

Edited March 28, 2022 by Guppysnail

[AndEEss]

Please describe the process that you/your grandmother took to establish the nitrogen cycle in the new tank. And, what is done to treat/condition the water when it is added to the tank.

Also, list the various components of the system, such as tank size, filter, filter media, etc. 

Edited March 28, 2022 by AndEEss

[JettsPapa]

I agree that the absence of nitrates would seem to indicate that the tank isn't cycled, but if that's what killed the fish I'd expect to see some ammonia and/or nitrites.

[gardenman]

No ammonia with fish in the tank implies the tank is cycled. If you've got fish, they're creating ammonia. And if the fish keeper is overfeeding the fish, you'll have lots of ammonia. No ammonia and no nitrites in a three-month-old tank housing fish implies the tank is cycled. You can have a bacterial bloom in a perfectly cycled tank. If she has plants in the tank, they could be ripping the nitrates (the end-product of the nitrogen cycle) from the water leaving zero nitrates. And nitrate testing is something people often get wrong. The liquid nitrate testing typically requires the bottles of reactants to be shaken vigorously for three to six minutes (depending on who one listens to) before use. I'm of the belief that most pet shop employees don't sit there for three to six minutes shaking the bottles of reagents to be sure they get an accurate result. 

To put it simply, the test results she was given make no sense. If the tank was uncycled there would be ammonia. If the tank was partially cycled there would be nitrites. There should be nitrates, but there are reasons why nitrates could be undetected (consumed by the plants or a bad testing procedure.) I'd say her tank was fine and she just got some bad fish. Angelfish can be a bit delicate. They have a very narrow and tall body. If handled roughly in the catching process and bent, it can result in a significant internal injury that can lead to the fish's death. They're typically a very hardy fish, but their design makes them a bit delicate to handle. Something with a largely round body like a koi or similar fish, can be handled fairly roughly and survive. But a tall, thin fish you have to handle more carefully.

Many pet shop employees treat all fish the same. They'll catch them, wrap a hand around the bottom of the net to keep the fish from jumping, then dump them into a holding container or bag. That act of wrapping the hand around the bottom of the net with a tall, thin fish like an angel can bend the angel's body in a way it shouldn't bend. That could account for the deformed one that kept hitting the tank wall before dying. My gut says this is a case of the pet shop injuring the fish in the catching/bagging process and your grandmother did nothing wrong. That simple act of wrapping a hand around the bottom of the net to keep the fish from jumping can bend a smallish angelfish enough to damage it internally and lead to its death in the near future. 

[Odd Duck]

It’s impossible to tell if a tank is cycled from a single set of tests that show all zero.  I have tanks that are “cycled” from day one because I’ve transferred a full capacity, well-seeded sponge filter and put in a bunch of established plants.  My tanks routinely test out 0/0/0 because they are heavily planted and lightly stocked.  The recurrent cloudy water certainly implies that there is not quite enough biofiltration, but we need to know more about the tank, the filtration, the cleaning routine, the total number of fish, their sizes, etc.

Please, fill us in on more details because the more we know, the better advice we can give.