Possible Fin Rot?

[KatFish]

So, as the title says, I'm thinking it's fin rot- due to my pictures as evidence (and watching a few videos to help give me some ideas on what to look for- including ACOs) 

Ponyo is a halfmoon double-tail male betta fish. and I don't have any other fish in the tank.

My water parameters that I took yesterday: 
Ph: 7.2
Ammonia: 0ppm
Nitrite: 0ppm
Nitrate: 0ppm
Kh: 40ppm / 2.24dKh
Gh: 25ppm / 1.401dGh
Current (todays) Temperature: 76.8*F 
Ponyo isn't lethargic, and he's eating (I fed him yesterday after the water test- it was the routine day to feed him anyway)

(I keep a log of when I do the filter changes, parameter recordings, water changes, etc. So if you have any more questions- please let me know)

I got Ponyo on the 23rd of December, and here's how he looked then: (see 12.23.21 first brought home.jpg) 

Then on the 25th of december- through the 29th I noticed an odd algae bloom (which was weird considering there were no live plants- I used the correct amount of safe start plus I had cycled it for a day before putting him in.) and the gravel was bleeding. (I find out of course- this is common with the type of gravel that was bought for me. So- I removed it, water change, yada yada.)
during this time, he wasn't eating, and his fins looked like this: (See 12.25.21 in the castle.jpg)

I also removed the castle during this time, because I saw him get stuck and struggle to get out- so I now have this as a bookshelf decoration.

After the 25th-29th, he started eating again, and he was swimming happily around the tank! I got him new plastic plants and the hollow rock hiding places (and made sure to clean with aquarium salt according to its instructions) 

There were no visible issues with the fins until I woke up yesterday morning (1.12.22) Which made me panic, considering such a drastic change (See 1.12.22 is this fin rot.jpg)
So I watched the ACO's video, and did the water parameter test- 
and now I am wondering if it is either the Lava rock tearing at his fins, the plants, or maybe the parameters are way more off than I realize?

Any advice is greatly appreciated!

[Native Keeper]

Definitely finrot, I'd recommend treating him with Fritz Maracyn.

[KatFish]

On 1/13/2022 at 9:06 AM, HydraSlayer said:

Definitely finrot, I'd recommend treating him with Fritz Maracyn.

Thank you so much for the reply! I just ordered some off of Amazon and the expected arrival date is the 16th.
I'm crossing my fingers that the UPS gods will let it arrive faster, as we have good weather at the moment!
(and of course, I'm really wishing there wasn't a LFS that wasn't over 2 hours away by car..) 

[Native Keeper]

Don't sweat it! 

And yeah, I'll feel yeah with the LFS. are closest one is 45 minutes away, and it's currently only saltwater, but they have plans for freshwater.

[Colu]

With mild cases of fin rot Frist I would increase water changes add a some aquarium salt 1 table spoon for 3 gallons and some Indian almond leaves as they have antibacterial and antifungal properties if after a week the fin are still receding then I would treat with antibiotic medication such as maracyn or kanaplex

Edited January 13, 2022 by Colu

[KatFish]

On 1/13/2022 at 12:34 PM, Colu said:

With mild cases of fin rot Frist I would increase water changes add a some aquarium salt 1 table spoon for 3 gallons and some Indian almond as they have antibacterial and antifungal properties if after a week the fin are still receding then I would treat with antibiotic medication such as maracyn or kanaplex

Awesome! 
I already own the salt, so that's a bonus- but I'll go ahead and get the leaves. 
Thank you so much!

[KatFish]

Good morning everyone, 

I finally got the Maracyn yesterday in the mail, and I'm following the directions for treatment. 

I've already got Poyno in the hospital tank, and I started treatment yesterday (we are on day two of five, according to the directions on the bottle) 

But here's my question:
It doesn't say anything about fasting Ponyo, so should I just go ahead and feed him as normal?

[xXInkedPhoenixX]

You can. The only concern with feeding and medicating typically is they create ammonia through waste. Bettas are don't eat much, 1-3 pellets are typically good enough. If the volume of water is big enough, you likely don't need to be concerned.

[KatFish]

Alright! Thank you so much! 

[H.K.Luterman]

I'm a little concerned that there's no presence of nitrates in your water when you do not have any live plants in the tank (a planted tank will consume nitrates, whereas an unplanted tank needs water changes to lower nitrates). This could mean your tank isn't cycled. Do you ever see any nitrates before you do a water change? An uncyled tank definitely could cause fin rot. 

[Patrick_G]

On 1/17/2022 at 9:46 AM, H.K.Luterman said:

I'm a little concerned that there's no presence of nitrates in your water when you do not have any live plants in the tank (a planted tank will consume nitrates, whereas an unplanted tank needs water changes to lower nitrates). This could mean your tank isn't cycled. Do you ever see any nitrates before you do a water change? An uncyled tank definitely could cause fin rot. 

I agree, there should be at least some Nitrate unless you’re doing very large water changes. It could be the tank is not cycled but it could also be the test. If you’re using the API liquid test it’s very easy to get a false positive if you don’t follow the somewhat complex directions exactly. 

[KatFish]

On 1/17/2022 at 11:46 AM, H.K.Luterman said:

I'm a little concerned that there's no presence of nitrates in your water when you do not have any live plants in the tank (a planted tank will consume nitrates, whereas an unplanted tank needs water changes to lower nitrates). This could mean your tank isn't cycled. Do you ever see any nitrates before you do a water change? An uncyled tank definitely could cause fin rot. 

 

On 1/17/2022 at 11:54 AM, Patrick_G said:

I agree, there should be at least some Nitrate unless you’re doing very large water changes. It could be the tank is not cycled but it could also be the test. If you’re using the API liquid test it’s very easy to get a false positive if you don’t follow the somewhat complex directions exactly. 

I am using the API's freshwater master test. 
And on 1/2/22 my parameters were like this before a water change:
ph- 7.2
ammonia- 1.0ppm
nitrite- 0.25 ppm
nitrate- 0ppm

on 1/8/22 I had changed my filter (still using tetra's whisper S cartridge's as that fits the tank "kit" filter. I don't know the name brand of the filter, but I still have the boxes so I can give you any specifics if you want them)
the ammonia was at 0.25
nitrite- 0ppm
nitrate- 0ppm

What should I be doing differently to be getting a higher nitrate, if I don't have access to a planted tank yet? 

[KatFish]

possible emergency- seeking advice!
 

I went with my mom to get her booster shot at 12:30pm, and came home at 1:15pm. I came back to check on Ponyo and he was floating in the hospital tank with the current, upsidedown/sideways/etc just not swimming with his gills flared. 
IT was obviously clear he was dead- and I wasn't sure for how long, because he was fine throughout the entire day I have been here.
He is in my bedroom, and the temperature of the tank has never changed.
I started to open the lid to the hospital tank when his gills started to move again- and he wiggled  back to life and started moving around!
He's alive and will swim if the lid moves.

I'm waiting the 5 minutes now on the API test, but I don't know how skewed the results will be since it's the hospital tank.
Any further advice to help keep Ponyo alive would be so helpful.

Thank you all so much!

[H.K.Luterman]

Looks like we found the root of the problem - your tank is not cycled. At all times, in a cycled tank, Ammonia and Nitrite should be measuring 0. All fish produce waste, which is poisonous and degrades the water quality, leading them to become sick. A cycled tank will have a bacteria colony within it that will eat up the toxins and keep the water safe for the fish to live in. These bacteria colonies live within your filter media, and so if you completely change out your filter, you will completely lose your bacteria colony. 

Let me find you a Co-Op video explaining the nitrogen cycle.
 

 

 

On 1/17/2022 at 3:59 PM, Swampbones said:

possible emergency- seeking advice!
 

I went with my mom to get her booster shot at 12:30pm, and came home at 1:15pm. I came back to check on Ponyo and he was floating in the hospital tank with the current, upsidedown/sideways/etc just not swimming with his gills flared. 
IT was obviously clear he was dead- and I wasn't sure for how long, because he was fine throughout the entire day I have been here.
He is in my bedroom, and the temperature of the tank has never changed.
I started to open the lid to the hospital tank when his gills started to move again- and he wiggled  back to life and started moving around!
He's alive and will swim if the lid moves.

I'm waiting the 5 minutes now on the API test, but I don't know how skewed the results will be since it's the hospital tank.
Any further advice to help keep Ponyo alive would be so helpful.

Thank you all so much!

I'm so sorry to hear Ponyo is not doing well! It sounds like his swim bladder might be getting affected. Please let us know what the water params are in the hospital tank and we'll go from there.

[Patrick_G]

Here’s my guess based on the data given. I think on 1/2 your tank was still in the process of cycling and then on 1/8 that process was slowed down considerably when you changed the cartridge. One purpose of a filter is to hold media that the beneficial bacteria needed to process waste can grow on. When you throw away the cartridge you’re getting rid of that bacteria. Most experienced aquarists fill the filter chamber with their own media, something like coarse sponge or ceramic rings. That media doesn’t get replaced, but just rinsed out from time to time when the filter starts to run slow. Here’s a great video on hot rodding your filter. 

and one on cycling

 

Edited January 17, 2022 by Patrick_G

[KatFish]

Hi thank you all so much! 
Here are the parameters for the hospital tank!

PH: 6.4
Nitrite: 0ppm
Ammonia: 0ppm
Nirate: 0ppm

As for cycling the tanks- I will absolutely look into these videos and see what I can do to fix the main tank. 
I was using "Tetra's Aquasafe for Betta's" as well as API's QuickStart
So I'm not sure what was going wrong. 
It is a 6.5 gallon tank- but I am upgrading to a 10 gallon in April (Birthday).

But I will look into these videos for sure and use them for advice- 
again, thank you all so much!
 

[Beardedbillygoat1975]

These products like api quickstart help cycling but don't cycle the tank. The bacteria that quickstart has in it need to eat, if you were not providing an ammonia or nitrogen source (people sometimes use Dr. Tim's ammonia or just fish food) during the cycling process then those bacteria may not "bloom" and seed the tank. Fritz does make a product that can do that called Turbo start as well as Fritzyme 7 but that horse has left the barn I think. Some of us would argue this seems to be the only 2 products that can reliably and quickly start a tank. You also have to keep up your water changes with them. 

The Tetra product is a water conditioner, "This easy-to-use conditioner detoxifies harmful ammonia in tap water, neutralizes chlorine, chloramines and heavy metals, and features stress reducing slime."

The quarantine tank or vessel has no to little beneficial bacteria and you will need to change the water to keep the parameters down. I often add Prime or Fritz ACCR to the QT tank to keep the ammonia down and did the same with prime previously. You can use the Tetra BettasSafe for this purpose. While this is happening we will need to keep working on the other tank whether for Ponyo hopefully or another wet pet. I would add some food to the tank every other day and don't change the water. Keep the light on there as well. If you start to see algae then you know you're on the right track - that to me is usually a sign that the cycle is close to complete. When you are about to add back fish to this setup I would test before and a couple hours to a day after a 50% water change. The results of this will tell you where you are in your cycle. If you have no ammonia and nitrite but nitrate you are cycled, if the nitrite and nitrate are positive and ammonia negative you are nearly there - keep up on the feeding every other day and water changes on opposite days to cycle the tank. 

The videos provided by @H.K.Lutermanand @Patrick_Gare excellent and I highly recommend you watch them as you will be a better aquarist for doing so. 

[KatFish]

Morning. 
We are on day 3 of the Fritz Maracyn treatment, and I am starting on cycling the main tank.
I did as @Beardedbillygoat1975 suggested and added some food, and I have the lights on. 
By watching the videos- obviously this isn't going to be an overnight process. 

The Swim Bladder is definitely being affected now, and the fin rot is worsening- I woke up and saw some small chunks at the bottom of the tank- which I removed and threw away. 
I saw Colu's post on how to treat Swim Bladder here: 

  The post says to wait if it's caused by an injury, but I will ask all of you for your opinion- since at this point I am completely out of my depth on this one. 
Also, I was googling more- and (please, correct me if I'm wrong on all of this- links will be provided) 
I was reading something about a vertical death hang? 

Which is what Ponyo is doing a lot more this morning- if he's not resting against the filter, or the thermometer. 
He breaks out of it within a few seconds ( I would estimate within 5 seconds ) but I read that this is also possibly because of swim bladder too?

Link- https://www.bettacarefishguide.com/5-causes-of-vertical-death-hang-in-bettas/

https://bettafishkeeper.com/why-is-my-betta-fish-swimming-vertically/#:~:text=The most common reason a,will struggle to swim normally.

Edit (7:40am):

 

Quote

Posted January 11

make sure to remove any carbon media! I have forgotten to do that when medicating and it was not good. 
 

 

I was just scrolling through the forums- as one does- and I am now terrified at the idea that I have wasted three days of treatment, because I forgot to remove the filter cartridge, that comes preloaded with carbon in it??
 

Edited January 18, 2022 by Swampbones

[KatFish]

Hello everyone, 
This is going to be the final update for this thread.

I want to thank everyone for the amazing advice they gave me throughout Ponyo and mine struggle during this endeavor, and I will be taking this information with me as I continue researching and learning what I did wrong- so I can correct these mistakes in the future.

Here is the sad and unfortunate news.
I came home from work, and have found Ponyo dead. 

so again, thank you all for the advice.
I have mourned, and have been severely humbled by this experience. 
But now I will use this time to research and learn. 

Have a great day,
Kat (Swampy / Swampbones)

[H.K.Luterman]

On 1/18/2022 at 4:34 PM, Swampbones said:

Hello everyone, 
This is going to be the final update for this thread.

I want to thank everyone for the amazing advice they gave me throughout Ponyo and mine struggle during this endeavor, and I will be taking this information with me as I continue researching and learning what I did wrong- so I can correct these mistakes in the future.

Here is the sad and unfortunate news.
I came home from work, and have found Ponyo dead. 

so again, thank you all for the advice.
I have mourned, and have been severely humbled by this experience. 
But now I will use this time to research and learn. 

Have a great day,
Kat (Swampy / Swampbones)

I'm so sorry you lost Ponyo. We've all made mistakes when first starting out, and even old veterans in the hobby can screw up too. But we're here to help you along your fish keeping journey. Don't give up! ❤️ 

[Patrick_G]

So sorry 😞 

When our Koi Betta, Barry, got sick we did everything we could think of but he still didn’t make it. We suspect something genetic, but don’t really know.