Guppy line breeding advice

[Coof]

Hello fellow fishaholics,

 

So I’ve gone down the rabbit hole of having some fun breeding guppies but I’m still working on dialing in my plan for line breeding. I’ve read plenty and would like some feedback from those here that have had success and plenty of experience. 
 

Starting with the parents. Then producing 1st generation fry to second  and so on. What are your methods?

“In line breeding there are a few things to be mindful of, namely: It is recommended to allow female guppies to breed with the father, but never male guppies to breed with the mother.” Taken from guppyexpert.com

 

i don’t have enough tanks to start with 2 sets of parents so I’m trying to figure out the best way to breed before potentially out crossing several generations down the road. Do any of you not outcross and maintain your lines just fine? The genetics and breeding properly is where this now gets interesting and somewhat complicated. 
 

I appreciate any insight you can add!

 

thank you

 

 

 

[lefty o]

in an ideal world, you would within a few generations outcross. what you do, depends on how serious you take it, and how much room and how many tanks you have. most people who want one nice strain, and dont have tons of tanks will just continually cull the ones with undesireable traits.

[Coof]

So some continue to line breed siblings for generations and cull the ones that aren’t desirable? 

[WillC]

If you are a member of the Co-op's club, Giane Souza's talk on Bettas covers how she approached line breeding Betta. Might be a good starting point.

Will

[WhitecloudDynasty]

If you started out with a breeding group, I wouldn't worry about outcrossing as bad as starting out with 1 pair...unless you know they are all siblings.

That 1 pair frys will all carry the same genetics so inbred them will get worse down the line. While breeding in a group who know who bred with who and how many babies belongs to them. 

 

[PedroPete]

I started with 3 male dumbo mosaic guppies - from 2 suppliers - and 2 female guppies of the same strain - from 1 supplier in August 2020. I only allow the best looking of offspring to reproduce, which means I have gone through 6-7 males total and perhaps 5 females from then to now. In fact, one of my original females is still a breeder. I keep the group in a sometimes filtered large flower pot with submerged plants, floating plants, and emersed pothos / peace lily. Sometimes, in nice weather, the colony is outside, but it is often indoors under plant lights. I remove fry and juveniles at least once a month to add to another tub - a 20 gallon storage tub from IKEA with plants (underwater and growing above the water level) with a sponge filter. I could definitely be better about tracking which pairings produce better looking males, as I do end up with a good amount of "culls" (non dumbo males). But then again, I have the tank space, so females go in a tank on their own as soon as I can sex them, and same goes with the males, into a separate tank. So far, I haven't had any accidents, surprisingly. I have only brought in one male in June 2021 from another supplier.  This is definitely lazier line breeding, but I do produce a decent amount of beautiful males exactly like I want (see photos and gif) and nice-looking and healthy females. Not sure if my experience helps any...but i haven't found any real ill effects breeding son to mother. I'm curious to hear from others, too.

 

(Oh, and i started my vienna guppy colony from two suppliers...however, both, of course, got their guppies from Aquarium Co-op at different times...so there's that. I'm not sure if this is right, but I think Cory brought over just a small number of "vienna guppies" about three years ago from Europe, and I'm not sure if he did any outcrossing since then. I would be curious to know what work was done to keep the strain healthy since then. I do view them as quite healthy as a strain overall, and males have some small level of variations...but again, I can't really speak to the genetic diversity of that strain given their unique entrance into the American hobby.)

[Beardedbillygoat1975]

With my Blue Hawaiian Moscow guppies the only line I know of is the one that @Bentley Pascoehas and sells. I have seen others sold as Blue Moscows but they are not the same. I imagine that if I come into contact with some male and female purple and or blue Moscow's that I really think are fine examples I could introduce them to the colony and after a couple generations I would have increased some of the genetic diversity. This is not line breeding but it would help with some of the issues that lead to some of the genetic issues that are predicted down the line for me. @Bentley Pascoehave you had any issues in the Guppy Mansion with cull fish that are not meeting the line standard or are you just letting them go? Have you introduced any diverse fish to help with these issues or are you not worried about it?

[PineSong]

On 12/21/2021 at 4:47 PM, PedroPete said:

I started with 3 male dumbo mosaic guppies - from 2 suppliers - and 2 female guppies of the same strain - from 1 supplier in August 2020. I only allow the best looking of offspring to reproduce, which means I have gone through 6-7 males total and perhaps 5 females from then to now. In fact, one of my original females is still a breeder. I keep the group in a sometimes filtered large flower pot with submerged plants, floating plants, and emersed pothos / peace lily. Sometimes, in nice weather, the colony is outside, but it is often indoors under plant lights. I remove fry and juveniles at least once a month to add to another tub - a 20 gallon storage tub from IKEA with plants (underwater and growing above the water level) with a sponge filter. I could definitely be better about tracking which pairings produce better looking males, as I do end up with a good amount of "culls" (non dumbo males). But then again, I have the tank space, so females go in a tank on their own as soon as I can sex them, and same goes with the males, into a separate tank. So far, I haven't had any accidents, surprisingly. I have only brought in one male in June 2021 from another supplier.  This is definitely lazier line breeding, but I do produce a decent amount of beautiful males exactly like I want (see photos and gif) and nice-looking and healthy females. Not sure if my experience helps any...but i haven't found any real ill effects breeding son to mother. I'm curious to hear from others, too.

 

(Oh, and i started my vienna guppy colony from two suppliers...however, both, of course, got their guppies from Aquarium Co-op at different times...so there's that. I'm not sure if this is right, but I think Cory brought over just a small number of "vienna guppies" about three years ago from Europe, and I'm not sure if he did any outcrossing since then. I would be curious to know what work was done to keep the strain healthy since then. I do view them as quite healthy as a strain overall, and males have some small level of variations...but again, I can't really speak to the genetic diversity of that strain given their unique entrance into the American hobby.)

Your fish look gorgeous, thank you for explaining your process... and I hope to have your luck with "no accidents" in separating boys from girls. 

[Coof]

On 12/21/2021 at 4:47 PM, PedroPete said:

I started with 3 male dumbo mosaic guppies - from 2 suppliers - and 2 female guppies of the same strain - from 1 supplier in August 2020. I only allow the best looking of offspring to reproduce, which means I have gone through 6-7 males total and perhaps 5 females from then to now. In fact, one of my original females is still a breeder. I keep the group in a sometimes filtered large flower pot with submerged plants, floating plants, and emersed pothos / peace lily. Sometimes, in nice weather, the colony is outside, but it is often indoors under plant lights. I remove fry and juveniles at least once a month to add to another tub - a 20 gallon storage tub from IKEA with plants (underwater and growing above the water level) with a sponge filter. I could definitely be better about tracking which pairings produce better looking males, as I do end up with a good amount of "culls" (non dumbo males). But then again, I have the tank space, so females go in a tank on their own as soon as I can sex them, and same goes with the males, into a separate tank. So far, I haven't had any accidents, surprisingly. I have only brought in one male in June 2021 from another supplier.  This is definitely lazier line breeding, but I do produce a decent amount of beautiful males exactly like I want (see photos and gif) and nice-looking and healthy females. Not sure if my experience helps any...but i haven't found any real ill effects breeding son to mother. I'm curious to hear from others, too.

 

(Oh, and i started my vienna guppy colony from two suppliers...however, both, of course, got their guppies from Aquarium Co-op at different times...so there's that. I'm not sure if this is right, but I think Cory brought over just a small number of "vienna guppies" about three years ago from Europe, and I'm not sure if he did any outcrossing since then. I would be curious to know what work was done to keep the strain healthy since then. I do view them as quite healthy as a strain overall, and males have some small level of variations...but again, I can't really speak to the genetic diversity of that strain given their unique entrance into the American hobby.)

Thanks for your insight and experience.
 

So you’re basically keeping a group of the best looking fish together regardless of relation to one another and letting them produce fry? 
 

I currently have 8 tanks with 2 more I can set up. I started with a group of albino koi. They’re beautiful but not particularly healthy so I’m not focusing on breeding them. I’ve since got 2 trios each of black Moscow and hd blue grass. From a reputable breeder on aquabid. The black Moscow and blue grass are each in their own tanks (so 2). I currently have about 200 fry ranging from almost 2 months to almost 3 weeks in several grow out tanks waiting to be sexed and split up. 
 

I’m just trying to game plan how I will breed the best looking as they grow out.   I also have a LFS that should take excess fish as well and hopefully find a way for the hobby to pay for itself. I’ve always enjoyed keeping fish and breeding different species throughout the years. I use to breed some African cichlids like demasoni but when I moved last I couldn’t bring my colony or any tanks. To my wife’s delight! Now I went down the rabbit hole again and have somehow wound up with a fish room in my basement. I never really liked guppies until recently. 
 

I appreciate everyone’s insight. 
 

thanks again 

[PineSong]

On 12/24/2021 at 2:22 PM, Coof said:

The black Moscow and blue grass are each in their own tanks (so 2). I currently have about 200 fry ranging from almost 2 months to almost 3 weeks in several grow out tanks waiting to be sexed and split up. 
 

I’m just trying to game plan how I will breed the best looking as they grow out. 
 

 

This is the tricky part for me. For the two kinds of guppies I've bred so far, I can't really tell how good the males will fully look until they are nearly 6 months old. By that time, the original mom fish could  have had 300 more fry...who all need sexed and separated. I can see how it takes a level of obsessive planning and attention to detail that I may not have, in order to really line breed. 

[PedroPete]

@PineSong I hear ya!! My dumbo mosaics take what seems like FOREVERRRRRR to mature into good looking males. I used to think guppies mature quickly...not any more!