How do you lower the PH and ammonia?

[KittenFishMom]

I use lake water for my fish tank. There is a lot of lime stone in them there hills in the finger lakes, so the PH if up in the ideal for Marine water, not fresh water. I see a lot of product for raising PH. What do you recommend for lowering PH?

I also started with a bare bottom tank and sponge filters that were in use. I figure between the used sponge filters and the natural bacteria in the lake water, the tank would cycle quickly, no such luck. I am doing a lot of water changes, cutting the fish population in half, and adding "Fritz Aquatics 80210 FritzZyme 7 Nitrifying Bacteria for Fresh Water Aquariums" and wonder if I should also add "API AMMO-LOCK Ammonia detoxifier" at the same time?

 

[AndEEss]

Don't use AMMO LOCK, ever.

Use Seachem Prime. 

For lowering pH: plants, driftwood, peat moss, Indian almond leaves.

[JettsPapa]

How high is the pH?  I'm asking because it might be easier to adjust your stocking to the water instead of the water to your stocking.  Also, it's my understanding that if the water is fairly hard then it's difficult to lower it with wood, leaves, etc.

[KaitieG]

Lowering PH is usually done by using RO water--but it can be tricky to keep things stable and can be a pain.  My Ph is 8.2 and I just leave it there.  If your fish are mainly coming from your lake, it seems like the fish should be well adapted to it.  That said, the higher the Ph the more "Toxic" ammonia is to fish, so I'd start dosing with prime and keep doing big water changes.

[HH Morant]

I have no experience with altering PH. I know the lower the PH the less toxic ammonia is, so it would be a good thing when you are having an ammonia problem. See aquariumscience.org article and chart regarding PH and ammonia.

I think water changes are your best weapon against ammonia. I agree with the author at aquariumscience.org that products that purport to "detoxify" ammonia - as well as "bacteria in a bottle" products - do not work. I know there are differences of opinion about these issues and people tend to try everything when their fish are dying. But I think adding bacteria in a bottle rather than doing a water change would be a mistake.

 

[Aqua junky]

I think we've all been through this lol.  For me and with my experience most fish will adjust to your PH, if your just trying to lower the ph to fight the ammonia than in my opinion your doing more harm than good by messing with two diff water parameters.  Focus on the ammonia and do constant water changes daily. Like 50% or more. I did this when I first set up my tank and when fish started dying than I did the research I should of done before I bought the fish lol.  I would stay away from dumping lots of chemicals in the tank and just stick to water changes. Again its just my opinion and I'm just a country fella from the Midwest who likes to drive my wife nuts and keep lots of aquariums .

[KittenFishMom]

Thank you for all int information !

I just did a 50% change with creek water (6 big buckets). We brought in last night and spent part of the day warming to room temp. I added a big drift wood log from the lake. I sent all the larger fish (about half) to a local pond with cooling instructions to help lower the ammonia load in the tank. I won't use the ammo lock.

The lake pH was about 8.2 and the tank was about 9. The ammonia was at the second level out of 5 levels, I have been doing lots of water changes to avoid spikes.  The fish are doing well, but their colors seem lighter than normal.

I have the bare bottom so I can see if they are not eating a specific food and to see if I might be over feeding, I am trying to only feed every other day until things balance out.

My scud tank's population is recovering. I put some of the smallest fish in there so they could get out of the ammonia. These fish are so small, they have trouble eating blood worms. So I don't think they can eat the adult scuds. 

My brine shrimp are bubbling away. I hope to get a good batch in the morning. I will feed some to the fish and put the rest in a tank to get a colony going.

I  am thinking about adding some non-native fish when everything stabilizes. What stock do you recommend for a high pH?  I was hoping to get some live bearers and/or maybe some tetras to add some color.

 

 

 

 

[Aqua junky]

I honestly would only feed once a week until you get the ammonia under control. 

 

[Guppysnail]

I have 7.6 ph very hard water. I can stuff a ton of almond leaves in my tank. My ph does not lower. I asked about it awhile ago and someone on hear said with really hard water like I have I could stick the entire tree in and probably not impact it significantly. I agree with stocking to your water. It’s easier and safer for your fish. Water changes are my defense against any water parameter issue. Stocking to my water makes this easy and I can react quickly rather than making water before I can fix the problem. 

[Colu]

I think the best way to look at your pH is to get fish that suit your local water parameters rather than trying to alter your pH in the long term without using RO water it will be difficult to lower your pH long term as you have very hard lake water I think your fighting a losing battle  unless you invest in an RO unit livebearers or lake Malawi or lake Tanganyikan cichlids or central American cichlids will do well in hard water with a high pH that all depends on the size of your tank for  stocking 

Edited December 10, 2021 by Colu

[KittenFishMom]

My tank is doing much better. The ammonia is now at the first level out of 5 and the nitrates and nitrites have come up, so the bacteria are doing their job. I'll do a major water change again tomorrow. 

I added some scuds to the tank that I found today where the steam comes into the lake.  The adults were too big for the fish to eat. I'm hoping the smaller ones slipped through the net and did not make it into the tank.  I'm hoping the scuds will help keep the tank plants looking good.

[HotTunaCartel]

On 12/9/2021 at 1:30 PM, KittenFishMom said:

finger lakes

Still freaks me out till this day that Seneca lake is 800+ ft deep 

[KittenFishMom]

@HotTunaCartelAnd Seneca lake is COLD! We had a boat at the south end from the time I was 4 until I was 8 or 9, then We switch to boating on Cayuga Lake for rest of my youth. I still remember how cold Seneca's water was, all summer long. Now we have a cottage on the south end of Owasco Lake. Each lake is very unique.

[HotTunaCartel]

On 12/12/2021 at 10:44 PM, KittenFishMom said:

@HotTunaCartelAnd Seneca lake is COLD! We had a boat at the south end from the time I was 4 until I was 8 or 9, then We switch to boating on Cayuga Lake for rest of my youth. I still remember how cold Seneca's water was, all summer long. Now we have a cottage on the south end of Owasco Lake. Each lake is very unique.

I don't remember much other than eating it waterskiing and looking at the depth finder afterwards.  Never went in there again lol.  Though my sister in law enjoys the seaweed 15ft out, ugh lol. 

 

[drewzero1]

When I was getting started I asked one of the owners of my LFS about trying to lower my 7.8 pH for some south american fish I was thinking about. He told me that unless otherwise noted, all of the fish they sell are kept in the same hard water I've got and should be adapted to it by the time of purchase. Unless you're trying to condition certain fish to breed, having a stable pH is generally better than trying to achieve a specific pH.

[Gator]

@KittenFishMom; Your sponge filter will cycle itself after four weeks doing 25% weekly water changes, doing daily water changes is just too much unnecessary work. Once your filter has cycled, your ammonia levels will drop to a safe level. If you decide to change over to a HOB or canister filter, keep the sponge filter running also for several weeks so the beneficial bacteria in the sponge filter will seed the new filter, after the new filter is seeded, you can discontinue the sponge filter if you want.

[Gator]

@drewzero1; I'm having my doubts about the owner of your LFS. Tell him that you want to set a 10 G tank and ask him how many Goldfish you can put in it. Any answer other than zero is the wrong answer, find another LFS if that is an option.

The only fish I can think of that will tolerate a high pH for any length of time are Livebearers (Guppies, Mollies, Swordtails, Platies, and Halfbeaks) and African cichlids. Our fish are happiest and healthiest swimming around in water that resembles the water they originally came from, and that includes South American fish. Most of the fish in our hobby originally came from South America where the water is very soft, acidic, and very warm, fortunately for us, this is easy to duplicate.

 Go to Wally World, go to their water kiosk (for lack of a better word), pick out several one-gallon jugs and fill them up with water from the kiosk, this is RO/DI water that has a pH of about 6 and is pretty soft, but not acidic enough. Let the jugs sit for about a week and then do a 25% water change providing you have enough RODI water.

 To make the water more acidic for South American and SE Asian fish, place about a teaspoon of Fluval peat pellets in a fine mesh bag and put it in your filter providing you have a HOB or canister filter. If Oak trees or Sycamore trees grow in your area, pick up some dead limbs from each of these trees and put them in your tank, break them down to fit your tank. These limbs will make your water more acidic for your fish and after they sink, you can arrange the limbs, so they look their best. Never use softwood like Pine or Spruce, they're toxic to fish. 

Remember that South American fish, as well as Bettas, and African cichlids all come from very warm water so raise your water temp to about 85 degrees. This temp will make your fish happiest, but also keep them healthiest, and who knows, they may even breed for your reward.

Good luck.

Sincerely 

Gator

[drewzero1]

@GatorFair point. What I forgot to mention is that they tend not to stock fish that don't do well in our water. No discus or anything like that. A lot of livebearers and African cichlids though. (I think what I was specifically asking about were corydoras.)

I guess what I'm trying to say is, your LFS owner may know something about the local water, and may be able to make stocking suggestions based on what people with the same water are having success with.

(Incidentally, I did ask them about goldfish in a 10 gallon when I was just starting out. They instead recommended some nano fish alternatives and showed me some larger tanks they had for sale in the back.)

[Gator]

@drewzero1; Cories prefer soft, acidic, very warm water, and I detailed how to create the conditions they prefer. Whenever you consider buying a species of fish, do the research on that species before you buy it to know where they were originally caught so you'll know what water they prefer. You may also be surprised to get some valuable breeding tips.

The two LFS's around here know what the municipal water is like, and that's the reason they have a whole building RO/DI system. The two LFS's carry a lot of hardwater fish because they know that most of their customers don't know the difference between hardwater and blackwater fish and the customers don't care, all they know is they want fish. Most people around here don't know that they can't set up an aquarium, put water in the tank, gravel, heater, filter, and fish in their tanks, all in the same day, but they do it. Their fish die and they have no idea why, so most people around here will buy more fish, and when those fish die, they give up. The LFS's around here don't provide information to the customers about anything, the employees don't own aquariums, so they're just out to sell fish.

  Fish go through a lot of stress during transportation, ammonia increases during shipment, oxygen is nearly used up or used up completely. the hardwater fish are further stressed by being placed in blackwater tanks. I see a lot of dead hardwater fish in the tanks at both of these LFS's., but very few blackwater fish

 It seems as if I was wrong about your LFS, if they recommended nano fish for a 10 G tank and showed you some larger tanks for Goldfish, then they're a great LFS, don't change LFS's even if you can. Your current LFS sounds like they're very knowledgeable.  

 

[KittenFishMom]

A bit more information.

I think LFS is Local Fish Store. Right now, my LFS is Owasco Lake. Everything in my indoor tank, but 3 plants came out of the lake. now that I have added the 3 plant, nothing can go back in the lake. I want to go to the Mom and Pop pet store that has been selling fish for decades, but I haven't gotten there yet. Now that COVID is spiking, I may not go for a good long time. 

I do a lot of research, and only had 4 fish die this summer. 2 jumped out of the tank and the other 2 took the fishing hooks to deep to attempt removal. They usually live, but these 2 did not.  I had 57 perch and probably 15 or 20 other fish in my 120 tank for a few weeks I caught each one with my trusty fishing poles. It was a lot of fun to watch them and feed them, but it was a lot of water changes too. Before that I had about 70 baby bullhead catfish in 10 gallon tanks along with a variety of other fish in the big tank until the fry where big enough to avoid being eaten. (That is where KittenFishMom comes from). I always feed live worms I caught myself, but it is too cold for that now. Also brine shrimp I hatched for the fry and started a colony to get bigger ones for the big fish.  Lots of fresh seaweed full of little creatures. Switching to an indoor tank and figuring out new foods has been a sharp learning curve because I wasn't planning on having fish inside this winter. (The 120 tank in my garage, was my first tank, bought in the spring to hold my catch until I had a good selection to clean for my Mom, on chemo, who likes very fresh fish, and not much else these days) In the spring I started with bullheads and mudpuppies. (Bullhead for Mom to eat, mudpuppies because I find them amazing and they both hit chicken hearts after sunset.)

My water was lake water all summer, now it is creek/stream water that is 2 doors down from my cottage and flows into the lake. The water temp in the stream is 34 f right now, so we have to warm it to room temp before it is ready to use. We carry the water in 5 gallon buckets. (about 4 gallons to avoid getting splashed) We plan to slowly switch to well water before the snow gets deep.  I need to test the well water and compare it to the stream water. There is no municipal water down here by the lake.  

So I am a wet behind the ears beginner who is learning a lot about keeping fish everyday. I may just stick to my lake fish, or I may try adding endlers or guppies to add for color to the tank. I may give away the lake fish and switch completely to fish from the hobby for my indoor tank.  Time will tell.

I never would have attempted an indoor tank without the support of this forum. This is a wonderful place to learn about the hobby.

 

[JettsPapa]

On 12/13/2021 at 2:00 PM, Gator said:

@drewzero1; I'm having my doubts about the owner of your LFS. Tell him that you want to set a 10 G tank and ask him how many Goldfish you can put in it. Any answer other than zero is the wrong answer, find another LFS if that is an option.

The only fish I can think of that will tolerate a high pH for any length of time are Livebearers (Guppies, Mollies, Swordtails, Platies, and Halfbeaks) and African cichlids. . .

Gator

Please define "any length of time".  I have pearl gouramis, Lake Kutubu rainbowfish, Corydoras trilineatus, Corydoras panda, and several species of tetras apparently thriving in my 8.2 pH water, and some of them have been doing so for well over two years (which is how long I've been keeping fish).