Carpeting Plant with Tough Leaves?

[CalmedByFish]

I want to get a carpeting plant for my main tank.

The catch is that every plant I've tried with papery/thin/flappy leaves dissolves. Like toilet paper when it hits water. It may take a month to do so, but it dissolves. 

Even the toughness level of Amazon sword leaves and vallisneria do it a little. Dwarf sag hasn't dissolved, but grows SO slow. 

The only thickness of leaves that have not done the "toilet paper in water" thing have been anubias. 

(And no, I don't have fish or snails munching on the soft leaves.)

So: If you had to name just 1 or 2 carpeting plants with leaves as sturdy as anubias, what might you suggest?

 

[Fish Folk]

On 11/21/2021 at 9:26 PM, CalmedByFish said:

I want to get a carpeting plant for my main tank.

The catch is that every plant I've tried with papery/thin/flappy leaves dissolves. Like toilet paper when it hits water. It may take a month to do so, but it dissolves. 

Even the toughness level of Amazon sword leaves and vallisneria do it a little. Dwarf sag hasn't dissolved, but grows SO slow. 

The only thickness of leaves that have not done the "toilet paper in water" thing have been anubias. 

(And no, I don't have fish or snails munching on the soft leaves.)

So: If you had to name just 1 or 2 carpeting plants with leaves as sturdy as anubias, what might you suggest?

 

I've got a lot of questions about your situation. But to your question, what exactly are you hoping your carpet to look like? Do you want it rally low to the substrate? Or might something kind of higher work? We used Rotalla indica pieces to sort of carpet a tank a few years ago. It worked alright for awhile. We could have done more if we had more to start with, or had vigilantly cut and replanted more frequently. It is usually a mid-ground or background plant in smaller aquascapes, but it can certainly look nice if vigilantly maintained.

 

[CalmedByFish]

On 11/21/2021 at 9:06 PM, Fish Folk said:

what exactly are you hoping your carpet to look like? Do you want it rally low to the substrate? Or might something kind of higher work? We used Rotalla indica pieces to sort of carpet a tank 

What I'd like it to look like: In a perfect world where I'm rich, the bottom would be covered in anubias nana petite, each glued to a small stone. 🙂 But let's go back to reality.

It could be anywhere from 1-4 inches. 

Your rotalla concept might work, using pogostemon stellatus octopus. It's the only plan I have that could be cut into multiple pieces like you did with the rotalla.

Edit: Really, my main goal is to provide a bunch of hiding places for little fish, and females trying to get away from males. I've been wondering if I should use broad-leafed anubias(es). I have a barteri that's wide and low, which is a great single patch of ground cover. I'd buy more, but it'd sure be cheaper to buy just 1-2 of something that spreads fast.

Edited November 22, 2021 by CalmedByFish

[Fish Folk]

On 11/21/2021 at 10:15 PM, CalmedByFish said:

What I'd like it to look like: In a perfect world where I'm rich, the bottom would be covered in anubias nana petite, each glued to a small stone. 🙂 But let's go back to reality.

It could be anywhere from 1-4 inches. 

Your rotalla concept might work, using pogostemon stellatus octopus. It's the only plan I have that could be cut into multiple pieces like you did with the rotalla.

Edit: Really, my main goal is to provide a bunch of hiding places for little fish, and females trying to get away from males. I've been wondering if I should use broad-leafed anubias(es). I have a barteri that's wide and low, which is a great single patch of ground cover. I'd buy more, but it'd sure be cheaper to buy just 1-2 of something that spreads fast.

Can you share more about your space, tank size, fish species, etc? Are you trying to keep certain fry alive? Just curious. Have you tried Java moss? I think that Java moss can be very effective at protecting small fry while also being a possibility for carpeting.

I also love the way that my Najas works through the entire water column to protect fry. Not a carpeting plant though...

[CalmedByFish]

On 11/21/2021 at 9:34 PM, Fish Folk said:

Can you share more about your space, tank size, fish species, etc? Are you trying to keep certain fry alive? Just curious. Have you tried Java moss? I think that Java moss can be very effective at protecting small fry while also being a possibility for carpeting.

Space and tank size, up to now, have been unstable. I've known since summer that I'd be moving, so anything that needed substrate just got planted in tupperware with gravel and root tabs, and occasionally got relocated to a different container of water. 

Starting now: Main tank is 29 gallons - internal footprint about 33"x13". Substrate will be 2" of 2-4 mm size gravel, with root tabs. 

Water parameters out of the tap will be very similar to what I had before, so I think that won't have much affect on what plants will and won't live. (pH ~8, GH ~12)

Critters in that tank: One angel. Endlers. Dwarf platies. Snails. I'm not trying to use the plants to keep fry alive. (I net them into another container for that.) I'm trying to let the adult endlers and platies feel safe from the angel, and let the girls get away from the boys.

I got java moss months ago. It's succeeding in staying alive, but not really growing. 

Since posting this thread, I've been eyeballing monte carlo on the ACO site. I've tried dwarf baby tears before, which looks very similar. Although the baby tears gradually died off, I now see that it's listed as "skill level: hard," where monte carlo is listed as "medium." Soo... Maybe? 

In case this info is helpful:  Staurogyne repens lost leaves persistently for months until I gave up on it. Micro sword absolutely would not stay in the gravel for the life of me... and I really don't like the "grass" look anyway. Dwarf sagittaria has done a good job of staying alive and in the gravel, but not spreading. 

[CalmedByFish]

@Fish Folk It just occurred to me that the Bacopa Caroliniana I ordered yesterday might could be snipped and spread out like your Rotalla. Guess so?

[Fish Folk]

What’s your light like? Those 29 gal tanks can be a long throw. Also, temperature? Do you use airstones? I’ve found that a slightly cooler tank helps plants a lot. Airstones seem to help plant as well. You may find that a small amount of CO2 will do wonders.

[Mmiller2001]

Honestly, the MC and Baby Tears are CO2 required plants. And truth be told, to get that low tight carpet effect, you're going to need CO2. 

However, dwarf Sag and few others should do okay. If they are melting away, something is off. Either your fertilization balance is off or light is too low. If the S. Repens is dropping leaves, that's probably a light issue. So I'd imagine it's a combination of both. I would also look at the substrate. Will it allow plants to spread roots and runners? 

I have 2 recommendations to try, actually 3.

1. Pearl Weed, will do very well with no CO2 and can be mowed into a carpet. Every time you mow it, replant until you have a dense patch. Keep it trimmed often.

2. Marselia Hirsuta, this does well and grows like a vine under the substrate. Simpley cut a portion and turn it and it will zig zag across the tank to form a carpet.

3. Hygrophila Serphyllum, now this can be hard to find and sketchy sellers, but will do well with no CO2. It grow like a vine over the substrate and sends roots down. This can over come less than I deal substrates. It has a larger, more oval leaf shape and may be what you are looking for. If you can't find it and want it, PM me. When my wife gets home, I'll have her take a picture for me.

All in all, I would double check your light and nutrients. The answer is there. 

Here's the Hygrophila Serphyllum, foreground right. I think it breaks that traditional small leaf carpet and adds a unique contrast. And apparently, it's rare.

 

Edited November 22, 2021 by Mmiller2001

[Patrick_G]

Thanks @Mmiller2001, great info! I wish we could save posts because I’d save this one!

[CalmedByFish]

On 11/22/2021 at 5:59 AM, Fish Folk said:

What’s your light like? Those 29 gal tanks can be a long throw. Also, temperature? Do you use airstones? I’ve found that a slightly cooler tank helps plants a lot. Airstones seem to help plant as well. You may find that a small amount of CO2 will do wonders.

All the plants I've tried so far have been pre-move, so the situation will be different. What I tried them in was probably low-moderate light - so that definitely could've been an issue. Temp ranged 72-78. Most were tried in a tank with a HOB waterfall of several inches, rather than any air stones. I'm sure I want to not use CO2, just to keep things simpler. But I can now increase light, I use air stones (sponge filters), and I can max the temp out in the mid-70's. Maybe that stuff will help.

On 11/22/2021 at 7:26 AM, Mmiller2001 said:

Honestly, the MC and Baby Tears are CO2 required plants. And truth be told, to get that low tight carpet effect, you're going to need CO2. 

However, dwarf Sag and few others should do okay. If they are melting away, something is off. Either your fertilization balance is off or light is too low. If the S. Repens is dropping leaves, that's probably a light issue. So I'd imagine it's a combination of both. I would also look at the substrate. Will it allow plants to spread roots and runners? 

I have 2 recommendations to try, actually 3.

1. Pearl Weed, will do very well with no CO2 and can be mowed into a carpet. Every time you mow it, replant until you have a dense patch. Keep it trimmed often.

2. Marselia Hirsuta, this does well and grows like a vine under the substrate. Simpley cut a portion and turn it and it will zig zag across the tank to form a carpet.

3. Hygrophila Serphyllum, now this can be hard to find and sketchy sellers, but will do well with no CO2. It grow like a vine over the substrate and sends roots down. This can over come less than I deal substrates. It has a larger, more oval leaf shape and may be what you are looking for. If you can't find it and want it, PM me. When my wife gets home, I'll have her take a picture for me.

All in all, I would double check your light and nutrients. The answer is there. 

Here's the Hygrophila Serphyllum, foreground right. I think it breaks that traditional small leaf carpet and adds a unique contrast. And apparently, it's rare.

All good info. I bet light was too low, but I can fix that. I wish the need for CO2 was made more obvious on plant-buying websites. As for nutrients, I was using root tabs and Easy Green, holding nitrates at 20-30.

The substrate I was using when I tried these plants was about the size of pea gravel. I'll now be using 2-4 mm gravel, which I'm guessing will work better for roots. Yeah?

Nice species suggestions!

I'll save this info to refer to. For the moment, I need to slow down the spending. (The new substrate is exactly what I want, but a pretty penny.)

On 11/22/2021 at 10:20 AM, Patrick_G said:

Thanks @Mmiller2001, great info! I wish we could save posts because I’d save this one!

I keep a document on my computer for aquarium plant info. (Same for fish species, water parameters, blah blah.) I just copy-paste what I want, then I can open the document and hit "ctrl+F" when I need to search for a topic. It's an idea.

[Patrick_G]

On 11/22/2021 at 12:12 PM, CalmedByFish said:

I keep a document on my computer for aquarium plant info. (Same for fish species, water parameters, blah blah.) I just copy-paste what I want, then I can open the document and hit "ctrl+F" when I need to search for a topic. It's an idea.

Good idea!

[eatyourpeas]

On 11/22/2021 at 5:26 AM, Mmiller2001 said:

1. Pearl Weed, will do very well with no CO2 and can be mowed into a carpet. Every time you mow it, replant until you have a dense patch. Keep it trimmed often.

I am having really good results with the Pearl Weed I got from the Coop. It grows insanely fast! Replant as dense as you want, trim to leave as tall as you want.

[Patrick_G]

On 11/22/2021 at 12:29 PM, eatyourpeas said:

I am having really good results with the Pearl Weed I got from the Coop. It grows insanely fast! Replant as dense as you want, trim to leave as tall as you want.

I need to try it again. Earlier this year I managed to kill three pots worth. 

[eatyourpeas]

On 11/22/2021 at 12:35 PM, Patrick_G said:

I need to try it again. Earlier this year I managed to kill three pots worth. 

Mine was left in the original pot for a couple of weeks (not intentionally, I did not have time to plant it). It started to grow like crazy, so I planted the trimmings in the tank and they are doing great. Perhaps keeping the parent plant potted for a bit may help?

[CalmedByFish]

On 11/22/2021 at 5:32 PM, eatyourpeas said:

Mine was left in the original pot for a couple of weeks (not intentionally, I did not have time to plant it). It started to grow like crazy, so I planted the trimmings in the tank and they are doing great. Perhaps keeping the parent plant potted for a bit may help?

Interesting. I've heard it can help to plant the pot, as is, into the substrate so the top of the pot is even with the top of the substrate. Then let it extend itself from there, without the original roots ever being disturbed. 

With a few of the species I bought, I might've had better results doing that. Not sure.

[Mmiller2001]

Here's what Pearl Weed looks like as a carpet. This can definitely be done without CO2.

 

[Patrick_G]

On 11/22/2021 at 4:51 PM, Mmiller2001 said:

Here's what Pearl Weed looks like as a carpet. This can definitely be done without CO2.

 

I really like his little cube to the left! 

[Mmiller2001]

On 11/22/2021 at 6:15 PM, Patrick_G said:

I really like his little cube to the left! 

Yeah, it's really nice!

[eatyourpeas]

I love the tank, but using CO2 and a monster canister filter on a 12 gal. tank with just plants and shrimp... Am I missing something here?

[Torrey]

On 11/22/2021 at 1:12 PM, CalmedByFish said:

All good info. I bet light was too low, but I can fix that. I wish the need for CO2 was made more obvious on plant-buying websites. As for nutrients, I was using root tabs and Easy Green, holding nitrates at 20-30.

I agree!

I am discovering (in the 10 gallon test tank, at least) that multiple plants I had been told *have to have* CO2 actually didn't. 

To get gorgeous reds, they need more (brighter) light, and appreciate nitrates staying between 20 to 40 ppm. Drops below 20 and the reds don't look as crisply, bright red.

The second trick for me is the dirt under the substrate. And as long as I use a siesta, I really don't get algae... but the decomposition of the dirt provides plenty of carbon for the plants to extract via the roots. The light is the limiting factor in a dirt capped tank, from what I have seen this year. 

[Meaning I don't use CO2 at all]

[CalmedByFish]

On 11/25/2021 at 11:48 PM, Torrey said:

multiple plants I had been told *have to have* CO2 actually didn't. 

The second trick for me is the dirt under the substrate. And as long as I use a siesta, I really don't get algae... but the decomposition of the dirt provides plenty of carbon for the plants to extract via the roots. The light is the limiting factor in a dirt capped tank, from what I have seen this year. 

Interesting about the CO2. 

I'm not quite understanding that last paragraph. Are you saying that briefly turning off the lights mid-day prevents algae? For example, 8 straight hours of light would produce more algae than 4 hours on, 1 off, 4 on? 

[Torrey]

On 11/25/2021 at 11:11 PM, CalmedByFish said:

Interesting about the CO2. 

I'm not quite understanding that last paragraph. Are you saying that briefly turning off the lights mid-day prevents algae? For example, 8 straight hours of light would produce more algae than 4 hours on, 1 off, 4 on? 

Yes, that has been my experience. 

Streetwise has a post about the Siesta method, and I believe I have included information about my siesta in my Walstad tank post.

Dr Diana Walstad did a lot of research on how long it takes plants to deplete the available carbon dioxide in a low tech tank (turned out to be 4 hours), and how long it takes for the CO2 to reach maximum saturation in the water column after the lights turned out (also 4 hours with minimal surface agitation, 3 hours with more surface agitation).

She then experimented with 8 hours of straight light, versus 4 hours on, 3-4 hours off, and 4 hours on.

The straight tanks had more algae at the end of 2 months than the siesta tanks.

My experience has been similar. 

I still have to fiddle with lighting intensity. Strongest lights that I can't control intensity, don't need to be on more than 3 hours at a Stretch, but I can add an extra photo-period (3 on, 3 off, 3 on, 3 off, 3 on, 9 off) and get gorgeous growth with minimal algae. 

My aquasky is my dimmest light, but I can program for more red, so it's on for longer photoperiods, and has red light that fades off over the course of several hours at night. The Walstad 10 gallon has been the most difficult tank to grow any algae in, and I had to do some work to get much algae to grow on the back wall (basically really, REALLY overfeed, remove all floating plants for 3 weeks,  and leave the light on, with the light slid to the backwall).

[CalmedByFish]

@TorreyThe way you wrote that out is so easy to understand and implement. Thank you!

[Torrey]

On 11/26/2021 at 12:56 PM, CalmedByFish said:

@TorreyThe way you wrote that out is so easy to understand and implement. Thank you!

You are welcome!

 

It's hit or miss, lol

Sometimes I can write the way other people think, and others I can only write in Torrey🤣