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What deficiency does my wisteria have?


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So around 2 weeks ago I planted some wisteria into my dirted tank. And before anyone tells me it’s transitioning into submerged growth, I’m pretty sure the few months it’s had at the LFS would tell otherwise. Anyways looking at the standard deficiency charts I can’t really pinpoint what it is. The main pictures are from my wisteria that also happens to be killing all its roots and stem under the substrate off, so that could tell something. But I’ve noticed a yellow brown tint on all my wisteria. What deficiency, or deficiencies is it? Also is some of my Ludwigia shaped a little weird. One stem has the leaves kinda curled. Oh and positive it’s not nitrogen (from the dirt and all).

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On 7/30/2021 at 3:07 PM, Demobanana said:

Forgot to add but I’ve heard people say that it’s because it’s new, and that would really suck if all the old growth disappeared.

Hi @Demobanana, do you have any water parameters that you could share? Also what nutrients you are dosing (if any) and how often?

pH
dKH
dGH
Nitrates (ppm)

Also if you could share where you live and the water company I can see if there is a water quality report with chemical information.
 -Roy

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On 7/30/2021 at 5:14 PM, Seattle_Aquarist said:

Hi @Demobanana, do you have any water parameters that you could share? Also what nutrients you are dosing (if any) and how often?

pH
dKH
dGH
Nitrates (ppm)

Also if you could share where you live and the water company I can see if there is a water quality report with chemical information.
 -Roy

Im also interested in the nitrates could be out competed for food? Are there many other plants in that tank?

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On 7/30/2021 at 3:14 PM, Seattle_Aquarist said:

Hi @Demobanana, do you have any water parameters that you could share? Also what nutrients you are dosing (if any) and how often?

pH
dKH
dGH
Nitrates (ppm)

Also if you could share where you live and the water company I can see if there is a water quality report with chemical information.
 -Roy

 

On 7/30/2021 at 4:52 PM, DannyBWell said:

Im also interested in the nitrates could be out competed for food? Are there many other plants in that tank?

 

On 7/30/2021 at 5:16 PM, Jungle Fan said:

In one of the photos It looks like at least one other plant in your tank has a touch of brown on its leaves, if so it could be brown algae at which point you might want to look at your level of silicates and phosphate, as well as nitrate.

 

On 7/31/2021 at 3:33 AM, Guppysnail said:

Keep us posted please.  I’m very interested in what the issue is as my wisteria all do this in all my tanks as well as my ludwiga doing the curling thing like yours. 

 

On 7/31/2021 at 9:36 AM, Patrick_G said:

How long have the plants been in the tank and how much fertilizer are you using. Also how old is the tank? 

Ok so I guess I have to type this all again since my phone basically deleted everything. Anyways, yeah like I predicted there are a ton of nitrates in the water (still kinda cycling with a little bit of cycled media in there) from the tank being dirted.  Ammonia was a bit high but it settled down to around 0 ppm with a hint of green. All the snails in the tank are fine though, so it’s probably nothing to worry about. Nitrites are 0, like they’ve always been and nitrates are pretty high, a good crimson red. Can’t tell you exactly because I need to find my little kit pamphlet, and I will get back to you Roy when I find the pamphlet! For now I only have those though. The plants have been floating in the tank for a good week and I planted them around 2 weeks ago, but I rearranged them 11 days ago. It could be algae but none of the other stem plants (even my water sprite covered in hair algae) has these problems. Does diatom algae usually turn the rim of the leaf yellow and then brown? They get 7 hours of light and roughly a little bit more  time with indirect sunlight (which explains why my Rotala and Ludwigia are growing a lot thicker) and I have no dosing. Yet. Wasn’t going to but if needed I will. Water change schedule (if needed) doesn’t really exist since I’m watching for ammonia and everything. The other day I did 4 100% water changes and the ammonia was still the same shade of green so I just left that. When the time does come though I think once every 2 weeks would be a good starter and then go from there. Oh yeah and yes there are a lot of other plants in that tank. The wisteria and the ludwigia had been at my LFs for some time so I got around 5 healthy stems each (actually probably a bit more for Ludwigia). And I live right on the edge of Los Angeles (practically in it) and my water provider is LADWP (if it helps). Still waiting for the bucket of water to sit for 24 hours so I can test it. Sorry for the unusual text, copied from Notes since I feared losing all of it again. Also it could be phosphates but I don’t feed any food into that tank (since that’s where a lot of plants get their phosphates from I hear?).

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If your tank is  still cycling, meaning you just recently set it up, and as you say "ammonia is a bit high" and "...there are a ton of nitrates in the water..." I would say bingo on the brown algae. Your snails likely won't have to worry because with most snails and shrimp their blood isn't hemoglobin based so ammonia, and nitrites won't generally harm them, however how long your plants were at your LFS won't figure that much into the picture at this point, as you are dealing with one of the phases of tank cycling.

The brown algae will eventually disappear on its own, how much damage it will do to your plants depends on how long this phase will last. I would do several 30-50% water changes per week while your tank is still cycling, these would be beneficial in reducing potential damage by brown algae. Don't introduce fish until your tank is done cycling and the parameters where they should be.

You could also introduce red root floaters, or hornwort to reduce those nitrates and get those values under control. Phosphates can be in your tap water depending on if you are in a more rural area, or if the wells where you water comes from are located in a rural area. Phosphates and nitrates are prime nutrients for brown algae, that's why if you can deprive them of these with your other plants, the addition of floating plants, and hornwort, as well as frequent water changes they'll be gone much sooner than later.

Most water precincts post their water quality report with all values on their web site, or you can request to have it mailed to you since by law you have a right to an annual report, and it is good practice to get one once per year to see what you are dealing with, and if any changes have occurred that you should be aware of.

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On 7/31/2021 at 2:24 PM, Jungle Fan said:

If your tank is  still cycling, meaning you just recently set it up, and as you say "ammonia is a bit high" and "...there are a ton of nitrates in the water..." I would say bingo on the brown algae. Your snails likely won't have to worry because with most snails and shrimp their blood isn't hemoglobin based so ammonia, and nitrites won't generally harm them, however how long your plants were at your LFS won't figure that much into the picture at this point, as you are dealing with one of the phases of tank cycling.

The brown algae will eventually disappear on its own, how much damage it will do to your plants depends on how long this phase will last. I would do several 30-50% water changes per week while your tank is still cycling, these would be beneficial in reducing potential damage by brown algae. Don't introduce fish until your tank is done cycling and the parameters where they should be.

You could also introduce red root floaters, or hornwort to reduce those nitrates and get those values under control. Phosphates can be in your tap water depending on if you are in a more rural area, or if the wells where you water comes from are located in a rural area. Phosphates and nitrates are prime nutrients for brown algae, that's why if you can deprive them of these with your other plants, the addition of floating plants, and hornwort, as well as frequent water changes they'll be gone much sooner than later.

Most water precincts post their water quality report with all values on their web site, or you can request to have it mailed to you since by law you have a right to an annual report, and it is good practice to get one once per year to see what you are dealing with, and if any changes have occurred that you should be aware of.

Yeah it might be the nitrates. Still kinda confusing me though because no other plant is going through this. Also I do plan on more water changes, but it’s kinda tiring when they really don’t do anything.

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I see that there is some good looking new growth on the tops of your Wisteria. When I move or trim mine I find that I get some melt or algae issues on the lower leaves while the tops take off like yours. When I first bought the plant I lost about 2/3 of the bottom but I replanted the top and they grew well. 
I think your best course of action might be to just wait and see what happens.
Here’s a pic of a Wisteria stem I recently trimmed and replanted. Clearly I’m having some melt on the lower leaves, but the top is doing great. I’ll wait a few weeks and see what happens and then take action if needed. 731B41DE-6161-4319-A85B-89F90250FE4C.jpeg.adc0b9506c9ccb5d76ff48b9441e91f1.jpeg

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On 7/31/2021 at 3:17 PM, Patrick_G said:

I see that there is some good looking new growth on the tops of your Wisteria. When I move or trim mine I find that I get some melt or algae issues on the lower leaves while the tops take off like yours. When I first bought the plant I lost about 2/3 of the bottom but I replanted the top and they grew well. 
I think your best course of action might be to just wait and see what happens.
Here’s a pic of a Wisteria stem I recently trimmed and replanted. Clearly I’m having some melt on the lower leaves, but the top is doing great. I’ll wait a few weeks and see what happens and then take action if needed. 731B41DE-6161-4319-A85B-89F90250FE4C.jpeg.adc0b9506c9ccb5d76ff48b9441e91f1.jpeg

Yeah the suspense is killing me…but what can I do but wait? Just really hope all that formerly healthy bottom growth doesn’t wither away. It would also look pretty ugly.

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Hi @Demobanana

Does the water in your tank go through a water softener?  If so the following does not necessarily apply. 

I've looked at your photos several times.  Both the Hygrophila difformis and the Ludwigia are having the same issues; the new leaves come in green, healthy, and well formed but shortly thereafter they start to lose their green color and start to decline.  This would indicate an issue with one of the mobile nutrients (as opposed to the immobile nutrients).  The mobile nutrients are:  all of the macro-nutrients (N, P, K) as well as the following secondary and micro-nutrients: magnesium, chlorine (chloride), molybdenum and nickel.  It may be a 'dirted' tank however that does not mean the soil had all of the nutrients the plants require.....all soils are different and even farmers have to fertilize.  Now, assuming you are correct about your nitrate (N) level being adequate then the two most likely causes of the yellowing on maturing leaves would be potassium (P) and/or magnesium (Mg).

If it were my tank I would lean towards trying additional magnesium at first.  Why?  The clue was in your last photo above187840914_CAREDemobanana01.jpeg.4213fa897b7c81697f253c1a697ac9bc.jpeg

If you look at the leaf of the Ludwigia you will see how the veins are much darker than the area between them.  That is called interveinal chlorosis.  Typically we see interveinal chlorosis either in new leaves (which would indicate an issue with iron uptake) or in recently matured and older leaves indicating an issue with magnesium.  Magnesium is necessary for photosynthesis which gives plants their nice green color.  Because magnesium is a 'mobile' nutrient the plant has the ability to more the magnesium in older leaves to support new leaf growth, this happens if there is not sufficient magnesium available through the roots or water column.  As the magnesium is removed from the older leaves the leaves start to yellow starting with the area between the leaf veins and those areas become lighter green in color.

What to do?  Insufficient magnesium availability can be caused by 1) not enough magnesium in the tank or 2) too much of another nutrient blocking the uptake of the magnesium (typically calcium in most cases).  I usually try just adding more magnesium first and see how the plants respond.

1)  Go to your local drugstore and pick up some Epsom Salt (aka magnesium sulfate / MgSO4*7H2O).  Get the cheapest stuff on the shelf with no additives or scents.

2)  Do an initial dose of magnesium sulfate to your tank of 3/8 teaspoon per 10 gallons.  This will add about 5 ppm of Mg to your tank.

3)  When you do a water change, add 3/8 teaspoon magnesium sulfate per 10 gallons of NEW WATER added.

4)  Wait!   (This is the hardest part)

Since we are likely dealing with a mobile nutrient issues ti will take about 4 weeks to see if the problem is resolved.  Watch the new leaves that emerge after you have increased the magnesium in the tank.  DO NOT WATCH THE EXISTING LEAVES, THEY WILL NOT IMPROVE.  The new leaves should come in as nice (or nicer) than they currently do.  The leaves may actually be a little greener and larger than currently and the growth rate may increase.  The key is what do these new leaves do as they mature (which is why we wait).  They should continue to remain green and healthy looking.  If so, we can conclude the issue was insufficient Mg. 

As for the brown discoloration.  If it comes off when you rub a leaf between your finger and thumb it is likely diatoms.

Hope this helps! -Roy

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On 8/1/2021 at 10:36 AM, Seattle_Aquarist said:

Hi @Demobanana

Does the water in your tank go through a water softener?  If so the following does not necessarily apply. 

I've looked at your photos several times.  Both the Hygrophila difformis and the Ludwigia are having the same issues; the new leaves come in green, healthy, and well formed but shortly thereafter they start to lose their green color and start to decline.  This would indicate an issue with one of the mobile nutrients (as opposed to the immobile nutrients).  The mobile nutrients are:  all of the macro-nutrients (N, P, K) as well as the following secondary and micro-nutrients: magnesium, chlorine (chloride), molybdenum and nickel.  It may be a 'dirted' tank however that does not mean the soil had all of the nutrients the plants require.....all soils are different and even farmers have to fertilize.  Now, assuming you are correct about your nitrate (N) level being adequate then the two most likely causes of the yellowing on maturing leaves would be potassium (P) and/or magnesium (Mg).

If it were my tank I would lean towards trying additional magnesium at first.  Why?  The clue was in your last photo above187840914_CAREDemobanana01.jpeg.4213fa897b7c81697f253c1a697ac9bc.jpeg

If you look at the leaf of the Ludwigia you will see how the veins are much darker than the area between them.  That is called interveinal chlorosis.  Typically we see interveinal chlorosis either in new leaves (which would indicate an issue with iron uptake) or in recently matured and older leaves indicating an issue with magnesium.  Magnesium is necessary for photosynthesis which gives plants their nice green color.  Because magnesium is a 'mobile' nutrient the plant has the ability to more the magnesium in older leaves to support new leaf growth, this happens if there is not sufficient magnesium available through the roots or water column.  As the magnesium is removed from the older leaves the leaves start to yellow starting with the area between the leaf veins and those areas become lighter green in color.

What to do?  Insufficient magnesium availability can be caused by 1) not enough magnesium in the tank or 2) too much of another nutrient blocking the uptake of the magnesium (typically calcium in most cases).  I usually try just adding more magnesium first and see how the plants respond.

1)  Go to your local drugstore and pick up some Epsom Salt (aka magnesium sulfate / MgSO4*7H2O).  Get the cheapest stuff on the shelf with no additives or scents.

2)  Do an initial dose of magnesium sulfate to your tank of 3/8 teaspoon per 10 gallons.  This will add about 5 ppm of Mg to your tank.

3)  When you do a water change, add 3/8 teaspoon magnesium sulfate per 10 gallons of NEW WATER added.

4)  Wait!   (This is the hardest part)

Since we are likely dealing with a mobile nutrient issues ti will take about 4 weeks to see if the problem is resolved.  Watch the new leaves that emerge after you have increased the magnesium in the tank.  DO NOT WATCH THE EXISTING LEAVES, THEY WILL NOT IMPROVE.  The new leaves should come in as nice (or nicer) than they currently do.  The leaves may actually be a little greener and larger than currently and the growth rate may increase.  The key is what do these new leaves do as they mature (which is why we wait).  They should continue to remain green and healthy looking.  If so, we can conclude the issue was insufficient Mg. 

As for the brown discoloration.  If it comes off when you rub a leaf between your finger and thumb it is likely diatoms.

Hope this helps! -Roy

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A water softener? Not that I know of, but who knows, I dont own my property. I'll just pretend I do for the sake of the steps. Wow, it could be a magnesium deficiency, I suspected it for the ludwigia but left it alone since it looked healthy anyways. Lucky for me, I do have epsom salt. Now to just find a 1/8 teaspoon. I'll probably have to take a 1/4 teaspoon and try to measure a half of one out. Do you really think the leaves are al dying because of a magnesium deficiency?

And no, the brown doesnt come away, I think its actually dying and not an algae coating it. I figured the algae coating it was killing it and then leaving, but if you say it rubs away it might not be that. But honestly last time I had brown diatom algae spots on my wisteria it didnt rub away either so...who knows. Like I said my wisteria is the only plant in there turning brown and yellow and dying- even with the ludwigia, the others look just fine without the curling. They still have those leaves though.

Oh and I never did find my pamphlet for the test kit, so I just took the samples and compared em online. For my tank (changed water 100% around a week and a half ago), gh is 13-14 and kh is 6-7. Ph looks around 7.6 or higher, almost a darker sky blue. If it helps. And I dont know why I didnt say this earlier but my water provider says 7-9 on magnesium, 24-26 on calcium 7.7 on average for PH, less than .4 on nitrates and .4 for ammonia and chloramines. Anyways, thanks for the help, I just really hope wisteria turns out to be a thing I just cant grow. Because wow those stems and roots looked great when I got them. 

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With only looking at your photos and not getting to much into parameters, I can tell you this. I have a lot of water wisteria in my tanks. When I first got it, I had the same exact issue. I thought I had a deficiency, but my other plants did not show that. I talked to a person from my LFS and he preached the same that Cory does.... patience. He told me its getting used to my tank and to wait. So I did. It took time, about 3 to 4 month actually, but it became established and took off, I just kept trimming it back and planting the healthy trimmings and it eventually all became healthy again. Wisteria is a finicy plant until its established. Once it's established, you are going to be trimming it two to three times month because it turns into a weed. It's likely just getting used to YOUR water parameters in that specific tank.

Good Luck, and remember, these things don't happen overnight, even though we want them to. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

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On 8/1/2021 at 7:21 PM, Demobanana said:

A water softener? Not that I know of, but who knows, I dont own my property. I'll just pretend I do for the sake of the steps. Wow, it could be a magnesium deficiency, I suspected it for the ludwigia but left it alone since it looked healthy anyways. Lucky for me, I do have epsom salt. Now to just find a 1/8 teaspoon. I'll probably have to take a 1/4 teaspoon and try to measure a half of one out. Do you really think the leaves are al dying because of a magnesium deficiency?

And no, the brown doesnt come away, I think its actually dying and not an algae coating it. I figured the algae coating it was killing it and then leaving, but if you say it rubs away it might not be that. But honestly last time I had brown diatom algae spots on my wisteria it didnt rub away either so...who knows. Like I said my wisteria is the only plant in there turning brown and yellow and dying- even with the ludwigia, the others look just fine without the curling. They still have those leaves though.

Oh and I never did find my pamphlet for the test kit, so I just took the samples and compared em online. For my tank (changed water 100% around a week and a half ago), gh is 13-14 and kh is 6-7. Ph looks around 7.6 or higher, almost a darker sky blue. If it helps. And I dont know why I didnt say this earlier but my water provider says 7-9 on magnesium, 24-26 on calcium 7.7 on average for PH, less than .4 on nitrates and .4 for ammonia and chloramines. Anyways, thanks for the help, I just really hope wisteria turns out to be a thing I just cant grow. Because wow those stems and roots looked great when I got them. 

Hi @Demobanana

Start with the addition of more magnesium and we can re-evaluate a month from now.  Yes, insufficient available magnesium will cause the interveinal chlorosis, followed by necrosis (holes in the leaves) and eventually premature loss of the leaf.  A pH of 7.6 can cause some issues with uptake of iron but let's deal with the magnesium first and go from there.   I don't recall you answer, are you dosing any fertilizers at all currently?  -Roy

 

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On 8/1/2021 at 8:39 PM, ccurtis said:

With only looking at your photos and not getting to much into parameters, I can tell you this. I have a lot of water wisteria in my tanks. When I first got it, I had the same exact issue. I thought I had a deficiency, but my other plants did not show that. I talked to a person from my LFS and he preached the same that Cory does.... patience. He told me its getting used to my tank and to wait. So I did. It took time, about 3 to 4 month actually, but it became established and took off, I just kept trimming it back and planting the healthy trimmings and it eventually all became healthy again. Wisteria is a finicy plant until its established. Once it's established, you are going to be trimming it two to three times month because it turns into a weed. It's likely just getting used to YOUR water parameters in that specific tank.

Good Luck, and remember, these things don't happen overnight, even though we want them to. 

ok cool I'll just combine everyones answers and simplify it to wait it out, water change, and add epsom salt.

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