Help Deducing Tank Issue(s)

[d6veteran]

If it ain't broke don't fix it ... 

 

Anyway yesterday morning I decided to fiddle with my CO2 and accidentally dumped some into the tank.  CO2 is back to where it was ...

But since then I have noticed two things, unrelated, but the tank is not the same.

• 18 Danios (mix of Zebra and Kyathit) are now hiding.  They are usually very active, swimming through all the terrain ... in the past 24 hours only about 6 came out to feed.  They are not in the sump, but must be hiding down in the plants and rocks.  Very unusual for Danios not to come out in a frenzy for feeding.  But I've tried two feedings and very litter reaction, and at this moment, I cannot find any of them.  However, the 10 Corys and 2 Plecos are active.
• There is a group of white egg looking things on my glass.  See pic.  Just noticed this today while looking for the Danios.

 

 

[d6veteran]

Oh, I have 15 Nerite snails.  Could those be snail eggs?  I did not think they produced in freshwater.

[Cory]

As always, what are the water parameters of the tank? Do you have a picture of the entire setup?

[d6veteran]

Yes that would help!  lol

 

Setup

• Waterbox 64g All in One
• Sump has 4 filter socks, bio balls on mid-left chamber, bio max in mid-right chamber
• Variable water pump (Hydor Seltz) exchanging between 250-500 gph.  Most often set to around 350 gph.
• CO2 Art dual regulator set at 3-4 bps (runs during lighting)
• AI Freshwater LED running about 50% for 10 hours
• I used sand, which I regret, but am locked in now lol.

Stock

• Slowly added the following over last 5 weeks
• 15 nerites 
• 2 small plecos
• 10 Zebra Danios
• 8 Kyathit Danios
• 10 Cory Pandas
• 20 Java ferns (various types)
• 6 Buce

Maintenance

• 50% water water change 1x/week (Saturday), add general fertilizer and potassium
• 20% water change 1x/week (Wednesday, add general fertilizer and potassium

Water Composition

• pH: 6.8 before lighting/CO2, 6.6 end of lighting/CO2
• GH/KH ~80ppm
• Ammonia/Nitrite: 0 pre/post water change (too low to measure?)
• Nitrate: 5 pre water changes, 0 post water change
• Phosphate: 0-.2 (several tests, not exactly sure but below .2)

Edited March 22, 2021 by d6veteran

[ChefConfit]

First off that is a beautiful tank! I noticed that the parameters you posted here are the same as you posted in a thread yesterday. Are those from after the issue started? 

Nothing seems off about your parameters. If they did get gassed it could take some time for them to recover. I'd recommend an air stone for your tank as well. Keeping your O2 levels high with an air stone will help protect them from accidental CO2 dumps. Dumping a whole tank of CO2 will still gas your fish, but they will have some protection. 

[Cory]

I'd be striving to raise the pH to 7.0 or so even with the co2. As well as relaxing the water changes. This frequent of water changes is like taking out your kitchen garbage every time you put an item into the trash bag.  A lot of uneeded work. Especially since you are removing nitrates, then dosing them back in afterwards.

This aquarium is new, being only 5 weeks with fish. I'd recommend letting things settle down naturally. You could also add an air stone to the sump, this would help make sure there is enough oxygen without being very detrimental to the co2 if it's being fed straight into the tank. Also I'd make sure your temps are in the mid 70s.

 

Otherwise I think your tank has a great start and will just mature over time.

[d6veteran]

Thanks for the reply Cory!  

So it sounds like:

• Cut out the mid-week water change.  Let those nitrates build up. (I like the trash analogy - makes sense)
• Add an air stone to ensure good oxygenation.
• Water temp is stable at 75.  When I do a water change I error on the cooler side so it drops to about 74 for a bit.
• I will look into ways to raise the pH slowly.

 

 

 

[d6veteran]

11 minutes ago, ChefConfit said:

First off that is a beautiful tank! I noticed that the parameters you posted here are the same as you posted in a thread yesterday. Are those from after the issue started? 

Nothing seems off about your parameters. If they did get gassed it could take some time for them to recover. I'd recommend an air stone for your tank as well. Keeping your O2 levels high with an air stone will help protect them from accidental CO2 dumps. Dumping a whole tank of CO2 will still gas your fish, but they will have some protection. 

Yes, same parameters.  I was reposting for Cory.  

Basically what I did was forgot to close the needle value after switching tanks and when I wasn't looking CO2 was just racing through the line (for about 10 seconds until I noticed).  The Danios are the only fish that are acting different.   But if any where dead I imagine they'd be floating by now?

Going to try out an airstone and just stop fiddling for a while 😉

 

[Solidus1833]

I don't think 10 seconds of co2 over dosing could really damage livestock in a tank that large.  I myself am still trying to dial in mine for a 72g. Slowly going from 7.6ph to 7.0-6.8, one tiny rotation on the needle valve at a time once a week. You would know if you over gassed if your PH took a hard dive. I think Cory's advice is spot on. Your water changes should slow up, as your removing nitrates which are needed. I believe Cory recommends around 20ppm at all times in planted tanks. Buffering your PH may be where you want to start to help balance and raise it. Not sure if crushed coral could help here?  Also great looking aquarium, very bold and great color. 

Edited March 22, 2021 by Solidus1833

[d6veteran]

5 minutes ago, Solidus1833 said:

I don't think 10 seconds of co2 over dosing could really damage livestock in a tank that large.  I myself am still trying to dial in mine for a 72g. Slowly going from 7.6ph to 7.0-6.8, one tiny rotation on the needle valve at a time once a week. You would know if you over gassed if your PH took a hard dive. I think Cory's advice is spot on. Your water changes should slow up, as your removing nitrates which are needed. I believe Cory recommends around 20ppm at all times in planted tanks. Buffering your PH may be where you want to start to help balance and raise it. Not sure if crushed coral could help here?  Also great looking aquarium, very bold and great color. 

Thanks for the reply and compliment. 

• I did add a small bag of crushed coral.  I'll try another small bag or two, added over time.
• Also that is a good reminder on the CO2 to make tiny changes slowly.  I'm going to focus on cutting the additional water change, and raising the pH, and leave the CO2 as is for now.

 

[Solidus1833]

Just now, d6veteran said:

Thanks for the reply and compliment. 

• I did add a small bag of crushed coral.  I'll try another small bag or two, added over time.
• Also that is a good reminder on the CO2 to make tiny changes slowly.  I'm going to focus on cutting the additional water change, and raising the pH, and leave the CO2 as is for now.

 

Yeah, I remember when I first got into Co2, I was trying to do the drop counter and adjust every two hours, then i ended up over gassing ph was like 6.5. So I did a 70% waterchange that day ahah. I've been following a neat chart to get to my preferred 30ppm co2. Essentially follow the chart. You need to know your KH and initial PH. Then go from there slow walk your way to the green zone. So for example, I begin at 7.6  PH with a KH of 6. so I target 7.0-6.8 ph by the end of my Co2 cutoff for the day. 7AM-1500hrs. 

[d6veteran]

@Solidus1833

My KH has been around 4-4.5.  So based on that chart I do need to raise the pH like you mentioned.  Because if I am getting to 6.6 that looks like some over-dosing for my KH range.

[Solidus1833]

Correct, and 6.6 is kind of dangerous  for most species I think. I'm already not liking going down to 6.8, which is why I target 7.0 which is still inside the greenzone for me.

 

The video below goes into more detail. Was helpful for me so you may find it useful. Hes got another video on dialing in Co2 aswell which is also good to watch. 

 

 

Edited March 22, 2021 by Solidus1833

[d6veteran]

@Cory I came across this video you gave on cycling.  Super helpful!   

 

[d6veteran]

23 hours ago, Solidus1833 said:

Correct, and 6.6 is kind of dangerous  for most species I think. I'm already not liking going down to 6.8, which is why I target 7.0 which is still inside the greenzone for me.

 

The video below goes into more detail. Was helpful for me so you may find it useful. Hes got another video on dialing in Co2 aswell which is also good to watch. 

 

 

Thanks for the link.  Super interesting!

[Solidus1833]

np, let me know if you have anymore questions. Cory's videos are also very well done, I wonder if he has used this 'graph' method before, instead of drop counters. Even in my drop counter shows blue/green when im in the greenzone according to the graph. 

 

Edited March 23, 2021 by Solidus1833

[d6veteran]

Thanks for all the help.  Here is an update.

1. Monday night I added about 3lbs of crushed coral to the sump (recommendation on the bag was 6lbs for 60g, so I started with half the amount for my tank).
2. @Cory Airstone added to sump as your recommended.  I do have high flow through my nozzles with some splashing, so I think along with the airstone I have great agitation and oxygenation.  So at this point I think I am maximizing gas exchange.  I like the airstone in the sump idea.
3. No water change since Saturday.
4. Measurements using API test kit:

• KH has raised to between 5-6.  Four tests over the past 24 hours are right between 5 and 6 drops in the test.
• pH is now peaking at 7.4 this morning before CO2, and yesterday during peak CO2 it was 6.6.
• 0 Ammonia, Nitrite and Nitrate
• CO2 is at 3.5bps

So @Solidus1833 I think I need to dial down the CO2 bps to aim for a 6.8-7 pH at peak CO2?

The thing I cannot figure out is that while the 10 Cory Pandas and 2 Plecos seem active and normal, the 10 Zebra and 8 Kyathit Danios are MIA.  Over a 24hr period (even at night) it is rare to see like 3-4 of them come out for a quick dart around the tank.  They are so well hidden that I keep thinking they have all somehow been sucked into the filter or died and under a plant somewhere.  It's very very strange.  Just last week all of them were frenzied eaters and highly active.

 

 

Edited March 24, 2021 by d6veteran

[Solidus1833]

1 hour ago, d6veteran said:

Thanks for all the help.  Here is an update.

1. Monday night I added about 3lbs of crushed coral to the sump (recommendation on the bag was 6lbs for 60g, so I started with half the amount for my tank).
2. @Cory Airstone added to sump as your recommended.  I do have high flow through my nozzles with some splashing, so I think along with the airstone I have great agitation and oxygenation.  So at this point I think I am maximizing gas exchange.  I like the airstone in the sump idea.
3. No water change since Saturday.
4. Measurements using API test kit:

• KH has raised to between 5-6.  Four tests over the past 24 hours are right between 5 and 6 drops in the test.
• pH is now peaking at 7.4 this morning before CO2, and yesterday during peak CO2 it was 6.6.
• 0 Ammonia, Nitrite and Nitrate
• CO2 is at 3.5bps

So @Solidus1833 I think I need to dial down the CO2 bps to aim for a 6.8-7 pH at peak CO2?

The thing I cannot figure out is that while the 10 Cory Pandas and 2 Plecos seem active and normal, the 10 Zebra and 8 Kyathit Danios are MIA.  Over a 24hr period (even at night) it is rare to see like 3-4 of them come out for a quick dart around the tank.  They are so well hidden that I keep thinking they have all somehow been sucked into the filter or died and under a plant somewhere.  It's very very strange.  Just last week all of them were frenzied eaters and highly active.

 

 

Sounds like your on your way to be dialed in. For why your danio's are MIA I'm not too sure, but you have changed the water parameters from what they are used to. It may take time before they feel comfortable again? I don't have Danio's the only mid'water fish I have are Bosmani Rainbows, the rest are Dojo, Clown loaches, corydoras, and plecos. 3bps is the target i think. I myself are probably close to 2.5-3bps, as I feel like having the ph as close to 7.0 as possible giving me small buffer to 6.8 incase any issue. The thing here that's important is to do this all slowly. Like if your happy with the balance in co2 and ph right now then just let it sit for a week while testing water 3x  a day. When lights come on, high light point, and when lights go out. Then adjust from there. Seems like you got the right amount of CC in your sump though, good job. You have much more room to dial in PH/Co2. 

Do your danio's still feed? Or do you see any signs of stress? Like loss of color? Or attacking the surface for gulps of air? 

[d6veteran]

@Solidus1833

• Danios - no gulping for air.  2-3 of them will come out and swim back and forth the length of the tank rapidly for a bit, then go hide again.  Normally, the second I open the lid, all 10 Danios are ready to feed, and then 10 seconds later the Kyathit are out after the food hits the water.  Now, once I put food in, about 4-6 fish come out to feed.  So definitely something going on.  I don't see any visible signs although we do think one of them has super red gills.  Hopefully it is not a bacteria, but rather too many changes and they are hiding to destress.
• I feel I need to dial the CO2 down because based on the KH/pH chart, dipping down to 6.6/6.8 is getting into the red (if I understand the chart correctly).  But yes - I'd like to stop changes for a couple weeks and see how things go!
• I still am shocked that 18 fish are managing to stay unseen.  I cannot find them visually no matter what angle I look through, and don't want to rummage the aquascaping.

Thanks for all the feedback/ideas!

[Solidus1833]

8 minutes ago, d6veteran said:

@Solidus1833

• Danios - no gulping for air.  2-3 of them will come out and swim back and forth the length of the tank rapidly for a bit, then go hide again.  Normally, the second I open the lid, all 10 Danios are ready to feed, and then 10 seconds later the Kyathit are out after the food hits the water.  Now, once I put food in, about 4-6 fish come out to feed.  So definitely something going on.  I don't see any visible signs although we do think one of them has super red gills.  Hopefully it is not a bacteria, but rather too many changes and they are hiding to destress.
• I feel I need to dial the CO2 down because based on the KH/pH chart, dipping down to 6.6/6.8 is getting into the red (if I understand the chart correctly).  But yes - I'd like to stop changes for a couple weeks and see how things go!
• I still am shocked that 18 fish are managing to stay unseen.  I cannot find them visually no matter what angle I look through, and don't want to rummage the aquascaping.

Thanks for all the feedback/ideas!

So according to that youtube video I showed you and the one he did before, dipping into the red isnt exactly 'bad' persay. However, I wouldn't dip farther than the 30.0ppm numbers within the chart. I've got a pretty low tech planted aquarium, Anubias, Valsinaria, Red Sword, and Crypts, so I've got no issue staying around 28.0ppm instead of the full 30. I rarely ever see any pearling also. Not sure if that's indicative of not having enough co2 but I do notice my plants are greener and have less die-off than without. 

[d6veteran]

pH went from 7.4ish down to 6.8 between 8am and noon.  So adjusting bps from 4 to 3.  That is a big swing and not even at peak CO2 yet.

[d6veteran]

@Solidus1833Yes, agree with your approach, my goal is also healthier/greener plants over pearling.  I had LOTS of pearling which might be a sign of pushing past 30ppm CO2?

Edited March 24, 2021 by d6veteran

[Solidus1833]

Just now, d6veteran said:

pH went from 7.4ish down to 6.8 between 8am and noon.  So adjusting bps from 4 to 3.  That is a big swing and not even at peak CO2 yet.

Yeah, Id say maybe even aim for 2.0 bps for now because thats a pretty large daily swing. For myself, the tap is 7.6 and after the first day of a waterchange my ph at the end of the day is around 7.2, then the next day at the end its at 7.0 then by morning its at 7.2. 

[Solidus1833]

Also my Co2 counter is still blue/green, not fully that perfect green. 

[d6veteran]

@Cory  @Solidus1833  Quick question.  I am taking your advice to cut down to one 50% water change per week.  That means a water change tomorrow (last change was 50% on Saturday).  However, Ammonia/Nitrite/Nitrate/Phosphate are all 0 (using new, non-expired API test tube kits, double/tripled checked).  Should I hold off even longer to get the Nitrate and Phosphates up a bit?