Water flow while running two filters simultaneously

[wilkyb]

I was using just a 20-gallon air-bubble filter for the purpose of processing ammonia, as well a providing water flow & circulation, oxygen, to the water for my planted guppy/ghost shrimp aquarium. I've now added a 25 gallon submersive pump that I've pulled apart and rigged to flow water back into the aquarium from the surface (just like a HOB filter would). Unlike the air-bubble filter, this submersive pump does not have filter media or a sponge to collect debris. To save fish from being sucked into the propeller, I have tie-wrapped a clay ornament to the bottom. The ornament reduces the power output from the pump by ~20% due to the limited space allowing water to be sucked in by the propellors.

The details of the last bit there isn't so relevant to my question I have here, though:

My question is this: Will the air-bubble filter with media be less effective at processing ammonias when the sub pump is running?

The way I see it, if the aquarium is 20gallons, the air bubbler is rated for 20gallons, and the sub pump is rated for 20gallons, then the effectiveness of the filter media inside the air bubbler will be less due to the flow being diverted to the submersive pump. I'd imagine this may result in an ineffeciency of the processing of ammonias by the filter media by ~15-20%.

What do you guys think?

Edited January 16, 2021 by wilkyb

[Dawn T]

I would think that would be no different than tanks that use wave generators and such. Basically, I see no reason the difference in water circulation would decrease the effectiveness of your filter. If that were an issue, tanks that include air stones would cause the same problem, as the bubbling causes water circulation, too.

[wilkyb]

7 minutes ago, Dawn T said:

I would think that would be no different than tanks that use wave generators and such. Basically, I see no reason the difference in water circulation would decrease the effectiveness of your filter. If that were an issue, tanks that include air stones would cause the same problem, as the bubbling causes water circulation, too.

The way I imagine it, the water particles in your aquarium have no choice but to eventually enter one filter or the other. In theory, if the same ammonia molecule is pushed through the filter without filtration media once per day for seven days in a row, the ammonia and toxins would not be transformed to nitrates.

I'm actually more curious to know the rate at which ammonia is transformed into nitrate. The water in my city is very hard, and so I want to have an idea about how long this process should take with my given filters etc

Edited January 16, 2021 by wilkyb

[Dawn T]

Conversion of ammonia to nitrite then to nitrate will vary greatly depending on:

1 - the amount of beneficial bacteria in your filter AND tank (it colonizes decorations, substrate, and other hard surfaces as well as filter media); AND

2 - how much ammonia is being produced.

I'm not sure anyone can tell you definitely how long that process would take.

Edited January 16, 2021 by Dawn T

[FrozenFins]

49 minutes ago, wilkyb said:

I'm actually more curious to know the rate at which ammonia is transformed into nitrate. The water in my city is very hard, and so I want to have an idea about how long this process should take with my given filters etc

There is no set time at which the nitrogen cycle will be complete. It depends on your tank and what your doing with the nitrogen cycle. If you are leaving you tank alone completely, then 4-6 weeks on average could be more though. If you are creating a source of amonia (which I saw your other post where you said you were by using fish food) it depends how much. For example if your only putting one pellet in each day, its going to take a lot longer then if you got a small sprinkle. I sprinkled food into my aquarium during the cycling stage at which it took one week. Each tank is different though.

[wilkyb]

47 minutes ago, Dawn T said:

Conversion of ammonia to nitrite then to nitrate will vary greatly depending on:

1 - the amount of beneficial bacteria in your filter AND tank (it colonizes decorations, substrate, and other hard surfaces as well as filter media); AND

2 - how much ammonia is being produced.

I'm not sure anyone can tell you definitely how long that process would take.

I don't need a definite answer. Thanks for the tips!

[wilkyb]

10 minutes ago, James Black said:

There is no set time at which the nitrogen cycle will be complete. It depends on your tank and what your doing with the nitrogen cycle. If you are leaving you tank alone completely, then 4-6 weeks on average could be more though. If you are creating a source of amonia (which I saw your other post where you said you were by using fish food) it depends how much. For example if your only putting one pellet in each day, its going to take a lot longer then if you got a small sprinkle. I sprinkled food into my aquarium during the cycling stage at which it took one week. Each tank is different though.

Right now I'm putting in quite a bit of fish food at a time. I think the more fish food = the more nitrites being made via filtration which is what I'm after. In particular I want my plants to thrive. Are plants readily consuming both ammonia and nitrite? If yes then I presume I can add my plants as soon as tomorrow when the shop is open!


 

Edited January 16, 2021 by wilkyb

[FrozenFins]

3 minutes ago, wilkyb said:

Right now I'm putting in quite a bit of fish food at a time. I think the more fish food = the more nitrites being made via filtration which is what I'm after. In particular I want my plants to thrive. Are plants readily consuming both ammonia and nitrite? If yes then I presume I can add my plants as soon as tomorrow when the shop is open!


 

You can add plants right away if you have a fertilizer. No Plants will feed on NitrAtes, phostphates and iron. I suggest Aquarium Co-op Easy Green.

And your looking for Nitates not nitrites.

Heres an example:

amonia ➡️Nitrites ➡️Nitrates

Once there is nitrates in the tank you can add fish.

 

[wilkyb]

1 hour ago, James Black said:

No Plants will feed on NitrAtes, phostphates and iron. I suggest Aquarium Co-op Easy Green.

And your looking for Nitrates not nitrites.

I'm a bit confused by this. Are you saying that plants do not consume nitrates, phostphates, and iron? I've been operating under the impression that nitrates can only be removed by water changes.

I read about how plants consume ammonia & nitrites, but not nitrates

[Daniel]

3 minutes ago, wilkyb said:

I read about how plants consume ammonia & nitrites, but not nitrates

Plants readily consume nitrates. True, plants preferentially consume ammonia, but think of it this way, I will eat tacos before pizza, but I will still eat plenty of pizza.

[wilkyb]

2 minutes ago, Daniel said:

Plants readily consume nitrates. True, plants preferentially consume ammonia, but think of it this way, I will eat tacos before pizza, but I will still eat plenty of pizza.

Affirmative!

[FrozenFins]

12 minutes ago, wilkyb said:

I'm a bit confused by this. Are you saying that plants do not consume nitrates, phostphates, and iron? I've been operating under the impression that nitrates can only be removed by water changes.

I read about how plants consume ammonia & nitrites, but not nitrates

I meant that they WILL consume nitrates, phostphates and iron

[wilkyb]

Just now, James Black said:

I meant that they WILL consume nitrates, phostphates and iron

loud & clear!

[Kirsten]

Yeah, I wouldn't be concerned with waterflow as the primary means of dealing with ammonia, specifically. The biological filter is there to break ammonia down to nitrites, then nitrates. Plants can consume all three but they like nitrates the most, but even they can only eat so much, which is where water changes come in.

I myself have a combo sponge filter w/ airstone and submersible pump set-up. Originally just a pump, bringing about 25% of the water up into a bed of hydroponic basil and splashing back down into the tank for 15 minutes per hour. As you noticed, the submersible pump is powerful and pretty unprotected. Any fish fry, small shrimp, or delicate betta tails could get easily sucked up into it (don't ask me how I know, it was terrible). So gluing on a prefilter or hiding it in a shell is a good idea.

In any case, the pump itself doesn't "do" anything except move some water upwards. It's the plant roots and the bacteria living on those plant roots and hydroponic beads and the jostling of said beads that's filtering the water.

Even with that, I still wanted a little more air for my corys and a little more filtration in general, so I added a small sponge filter which pushes air through an airstone, surrounded by sponge material. The air bubbles and surface disruption create more air in the water. The suction from air moving through it gently draws water in to fill the space where bubbles are not, and junk gets caught up in the sponge material in the process, feeding the bacteria which break it down.

So I wouldn't worry too much about circulation unless you have a fish that needs low or high water movement. Filtration comes from the surface area the water can swish around in.

[wilkyb]

4 hours ago, Kirsten said:

I wouldn't be concerned with waterflow as the primary means of dealing with ammonia.

I know that waterflow alone can't handle ammonia; the question is how much does my one filter without a biological media reduce the flow of water to the bubble filter with a biological media?

[Daniel]

17 hours ago, wilkyb said:

I was using just a 20-gallon air-bubble filter for the purpose of processing ammonia, as well a providing water flow & circulation, oxygen, to the water for my planted guppy/ghost shrimp aquarium.

The way I see it, if the aquarium is 20gallons, the air bubbler is rated for 20gallons, and the sub pump is rated for 20gallons, then the effectiveness of the filter media inside the air bubbler will be less due to the flow being diverted to the submersive pump. I'd imagine this may result in an ineffeciency of the processing of ammonias by the filter media by ~15-20%.

I think the your premises are the problem.

A moderately stocked 20 gallon aquarium with plants doesn't need any filter at all to safely process the ammonia produced by the guppies and shrimp. An airstone is nice to help with providing some flow, and it won't harm your livestock to have a sponge filter, but given a moderate stocking load, a sponge filter isn't strictly necessary either.

Relax and resist the urge to over complicate a problem that doesn't exist in reality.

[Dawn T]

Decided to watch some of @Cory's videos on YouTube while I fold some laundry and ran across one that I think actually might help address questions here. He speaks directly about ammonia and such at about the 8 minute mark, but the whole video is less than 12 minutes long and has a great explanation of filters and water flow.

 

 

[wilkyb]

9 hours ago, Daniel said:

I think the your premises are the problem.

A moderately stocked 20 gallon aquarium with plants doesn't need any filter at all to safely process the ammonia produced by the guppies and shrimp. An airstone is nice to help with providing some flow, and it won't harm your livestock to have a sponge filter, but given a moderate stocking load, a sponge filter isn't strictly necessary either.

Relax and resist the urge to over complicate a problem that doesn't exist in reality.

Right on. I think you're right about ammonia levels, etc... I don't need to worry about it in this aquarium w/ such a small bio-load. 

I still wonder how the productivity of the filter is affected when there is competition coming from another filter.

[Daniel]

4 minutes ago, wilkyb said:

I still wonder how the productivity of the filter is affected when there is competition coming from another filter.

Other than bacteria competing for food, I don't think of filters as competing with each other.

A biological filter work by providing a home for beneficial bacteria. The overall size of the bacterial population is chiefly controlled by available food.

If the the same amount of food was split between the bacterial populations of 2 biological filters, there would still same total number of bacteria, but split between two locations.

It wouldn't matter if a car had two engines if that car had only one fuel tank.

 

[wilkyb]

2 hours ago, Daniel said:

Other than bacteria competing for food, I don't think of filters as competing with each other.

A biological filter work by providing a home for beneficial bacteria. The overall size of the bacterial population is chiefly controlled by available food.

If the the same amount of food was split between the bacterial populations of 2 biological filters, there would still same total number of bacteria, but split between two locations.

It wouldn't matter if a car had two engines if that car had only one fuel tank.

 

gotcha, makes sense to me now