LaurieinIA Posted January 7, 2021 Share Posted January 7, 2021 (edited) I’m new to using forums and posted this last evening, but realized today it ended up as a reply to another topic... still learning more than just fish keeping 🤷🏻♀️ I have a “new” African cichlid tank... set up in August. I’m new to the hobby, but felt like I got thru the initial cycling, etc without getting too frustrated. I expected some fish loss as I learned, But... I’m thinking of throwing in the towel. Somewhere along the line I guess I ended up with a bully. After a large handful of obvious and/or suspected murders, I pulled the killer and replaced the lost fish. The “bully cycle” started again shortly after. More observation led me to believe I may have traded out the wrong fish. I put the new “problem fish” into a basket rigged into the aquarium for a couple of weeks as I decided how to proceed. Still lost 1, maybe 2, during that time but thought I’d see it the “time out” helped. I released that fish and the murders picked up again, so now he’s gone, too. Unfortunately, I’ve lost 2 more since then. One might have been a freak accident due to a falling rock and getting stuck between decor and the glass, but the other was completely out of the blue today. Water tests always come out good. No signs of health issues... the one that I found dead today seemed perfectly happy this morning. He’s my 3rd death in exactly 3 weeks... I was advised to keep 16-20 fish in my aquarium. I’m now down to 12, but I’m hesitant to buy more since, overall, I’ve lost more fish than I’d like to admit. Partially from the learning curve, partially from whatever is killing them. Any ideas? Or should I have thrown in the towel a long time ago? I’d like to keep it going, but not if I’m going to go broke replacing dead fish. It’s not like these are 50 cents a piece Edited January 7, 2021 by LaurieinIA Grammar 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Colu Posted January 8, 2021 Share Posted January 8, 2021 What type of Africa cichlids do you have and what size is your tank Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bruce Leroi Posted January 8, 2021 Share Posted January 8, 2021 Agree, above details needed👆🏼 After keeping Mbuna for a number of years, I’ve lost some fish. I have one (Chipokae) that cannot be in a tank with another fish... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LaurieinIA Posted January 8, 2021 Author Share Posted January 8, 2021 (edited) 40 gallon. Currently have 1 Mbuna, 3 labs, 3 blue dolphins, and 5 peacocks. All are small now. I’ve tried others... demasoni, Livingstoni, venustus, and a couple others that I can’t recall. All died. Based on what I’ve seen and learned about bullied fish, Most I consider as murdered All from the same store Edited January 8, 2021 by LaurieinIA Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Colu Posted January 8, 2021 Share Posted January 8, 2021 What you need is plenty of caves and décor to break up sight line to give less dominant fish place to hide and rest Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Colu Posted January 8, 2021 Share Posted January 8, 2021 You can try removing all the fish and rearrange décor the and put the fish back put the most dominant fish in last so he doesn't have time to set up a territory 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LaurieinIA Posted January 8, 2021 Author Share Posted January 8, 2021 49 minutes ago, Colu said: What you need is plenty of caves and décor to break up sight line to give less dominant fish place to hide and rest 2 minutes ago, Colu said: You can try removing all the fish and rearrange décor the and put the fish back put the most dominant fish in last so he doesn't have time to set up a territory I appreciate your advice, agree, and have done all you recommend, more than once. I’ve rearranged, I’ve put the dominant one(s) in “time out” in a separate bucket for hours at a time to give the others time to get familiar. I’ve even kept the bully separate (via a basket divider, I don’t have another aquarium) for 10-14 days. I’ve also totally removed 2 fish (2 separate occurrences as described in my original post) in an effort to stop the deaths. Here’s a photo of one of the rock formations I’ve put together. This one is about 6-7 rocks stacked to create lots of caves, etc. The rocks themselves also have nooks/hollows. I’ve tried tall formations with some plants in the open space and I’ve tried low and wide so pretty much the whole floor has rocks/caves with more open water above, but still used the taller plants to have some visual interruption towards the top half. This was taken a couple months ago when “fully stocked” with the 16-20 I was advised to keep, but I’ve still consistently lost fish since then. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Colu Posted January 8, 2021 Share Posted January 8, 2021 I would get I some more cichlid caves and place them in the corners and back of the aquarium 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bruce Leroi Posted January 9, 2021 Share Posted January 9, 2021 On 1/7/2021 at 10:35 PM, LaurieinIA said: 40 gallon. Currently have 1 Mbuna, 3 labs, 3 blue dolphins, and 5 peacocks. All are small now. I’ve tried others... demasoni, Livingstoni, venustus, and a couple others that I can’t recall. All died. Based on what I’ve seen and learned about bullied fish, Most I consider as murdered All from the same store This combo (Mixed Malawi - Peacocks, Mbunas, and Haps) can be difficult to pull off. I think you got some bad advice regarding stocking. A 40 gallon tank is small for the Peacocks and Haps. Also, the smaller African Cichlids are difficult to sex (certain species) and can lead to increased aggression and/or fish loss. However, you could pull of a Mbuna colony or possibly mixed Mbuna tank (smaller, lesser aggressive species). Even with this approach be prepared to possibly move fish or occasional fish loss. I would suggest maybe switching to a mixed Mbuna setup as the Yellow Labs and your decor/caves are a great start. Could add some Rusty (Iodotropheus sprengerae) or Cobalt Blue Zebra (Maylandia callainos). I’ve learn a lot about aggression through my own trials/tribulations but also from YouTube African Cichlid keepers (Ben O’chart and Tazawa Tanks). 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
madmark285 Posted January 9, 2021 Share Posted January 9, 2021 I agree with the above advice, you need more caves. Long ago I setup a Mbuna tank (50 gallon breeder 36"x18"x20" tall), the entire bottom was large rocks. Using 3/4" PVC pipe, I built a shelf that ramped up and set the rocks on it. I even had a pair of auratus breed in the tank with no deaths. The male auratus was very intense but the other mbuna's survived as they had their own cave. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LaurieinIA Posted January 9, 2021 Author Share Posted January 9, 2021 1 hour ago, Bruce Leroi said: This combo (Mixed Malawi - Peacocks, Mbunas, and Haps) can be difficult to pull off. I think you got some bad advice regarding stocking. A 40 gallon tank is small for the Peacocks and Haps. Also, the smaller African Cichlids are difficult to sex (certain species) and can lead to increased aggression and/or fish loss. However, you could pull of a Mbuna colony or possibly mixed Mbuna tank (smaller, lesser aggressive species). Even with this approach be prepared to possibly move fish or occasional fish loss. I would suggest maybe switching to a mixed Mbuna setup as the Yellow Labs and your decor/caves are a great start. Could add some Rusty (Iodotropheus sprengerae) or Cobalt Blue Zebra (Maylandia callainos). I’ve learn a lot about aggression through my own trials/tribulations but also from YouTube African Cichlid keepers (Ben O’chart and Tazawa Tanks). Thanks for the advice. I love the little yellow labs that I already have. They are always very active and cheerful. I googled the rusty and the cobalt blue zebra that you suggested and love the look of them. They would definitely add the bright colors that I’m after. I want activity and a variety color, which is a large part of why I went with cichlids in the first place. I’ve seen Tazawa Tanks videos - that’s where I got the ideas to seperate my bully for a while via a bucket, etc. I’ll check out the other guy. Right now my goal is just not to overreact to each death. I obviously need to figure this out, but I realize I might be causing them stress by trying so hard to fix it. You know how they say that dogs can feel their owners feelings? Maybe my stress over them dying is part of what’s killing them? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LaurieinIA Posted January 9, 2021 Author Share Posted January 9, 2021 On 1/8/2021 at 10:01 AM, Colu said: I would get I some more cichlid caves and place them in the corners and back of the aquarium 1 hour ago, madmark285 said: I agree with the above advice, you need more caves. Long ago I setup a Mbuna tank (50 gallon breeder 36"x18"x20" tall), the entire bottom was large rocks. Using 3/4" PVC pipe, I built a shelf that ramped up and set the rocks on it. I even had a pair of auratus breed in the tank with no deaths. The male auratus was very intense but the other mbuna's survived as they had their own cave. I feel like I’ve tried this and that pretty soon I won’t have room for water 😉, but I guess it can’t make things worse. I’ve haven’t tried the idea of creating different levels using PVC while still essentially covering the bottom. I’ll keep that in mind. Any tips for easier cleaning with a rock covered bottom? I felt like I was rearranging everything each time I did a water change because I couldn’t get the vacuum into the sand unless I moved the rocks. That’s part of why I went back to more vertical formations that had a smaller footprint in the sand. I could clean around them during my weekly maintenance and only deal with getting directly in/around them when I wanted to move them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Melissa Ann Posted January 9, 2021 Share Posted January 9, 2021 Hard mix to manage - and this comes from almost a year of experience with these guys in a 65. Have you thought about a Mbuna only tank or peacock- only tank. I’m considering that myself and should have listened when people told me to do so in the beginning. I’ve only lost 3 out of 21 but I credit that only to a larger tank and recreating my tank when doing water changes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LaurieinIA Posted January 9, 2021 Author Share Posted January 9, 2021 @Melissa Ann It is definitely under consideration now. I’m learning that this can be done, but is more difficult than I was led to believe... even for more experienced people. The crazy thing is, even with the frustrations over this one, I’m already dreaming of a bigger, better, setup when I can afford it. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Melissa Ann Posted January 9, 2021 Share Posted January 9, 2021 (edited) I know, right?? #tankaddiction Hang in there and in the meantime make more spots to hide. Or in the alternative, remove most rock so they have to deal with each other out in the open. That’s worked for me before. Definitely wouldn’t add any more fish right now. ❤️ Edited January 9, 2021 by Melissa Ann 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LaurieinIA Posted January 9, 2021 Author Share Posted January 9, 2021 (edited) @Melissa Ann I’ve thought about this, too, but didn’t really think it was a viable option. It might be the next move. 🤔 Fight it out, see who survives, then regroup and move forward from there. I’m going to sit tight for now. I rearranged some last water change and don’t want to cause more stress by doing it too often. I’m also considering keeping my population lower. It goes against the “norm” of overstocking cichlids, but I’ve seen some info to support it. To me, if it keeps what I have alive, who cares what the norm is. Edited January 9, 2021 by LaurieinIA 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LaurieinIA Posted January 14, 2021 Author Share Posted January 14, 2021 Big WIN this week! I know Wednesday isn’t over yet, but this is the first Wednesday in a month that I haven’t lost a fish. YAY! Keeping my fingers crossed 🤞 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FrozenFins Posted January 14, 2021 Share Posted January 14, 2021 57 minutes ago, LaurieinIA said: Big WIN this week! I know Wednesday isn’t over yet, but this is the first Wednesday in a month that I haven’t lost a fish. YAY! Keeping my fingers crossed 🤞 glad to hear! My fingers are crossed too🤞 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LaurieinIA Posted January 22, 2021 Author Share Posted January 22, 2021 Update... I’ve made it another 9 days without a death/murder. 16 days total. I know that doesn’t seem like a big deal, but when I was losing fish at least once a week for a month or more, 16 days is HUGE 😃 There was a close call though... Last Sunday, I found one of my larger cichlids had the crap beat out of him. Fins are in sad shape, but I was able to separate him within the main tank and am treating with melafix. Unfortunately, I don’t have a hospital tank or other meds right now and need to figure that out, but this seems to be helping. He’s looking better, eats really well, and seems to like being spoiled. Everyone else seems happy and healthy and I have not seen any more signs of aggression on/from anyone else. I’m hoping I’ve FINALLY turned the corner and they will all continue to get along. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Squeegee79 Posted January 22, 2021 Share Posted January 22, 2021 New to the forums and just saw this thread, but hoping I can lend some insight. First, I agree with those that said the Livingstoni/Venustus/Peacocks are likely going to outgrow a 40 gallon. Second, MORE ROCKS. Then add some more rocks. Then when you think you can't fit any more....add more rocks. 🙂 That stack that you have there is pretty nice, but extending that through the entire tank will help a lot. When I used to keep these guys I liked using slate and round rocks stacked to make lots of hiding places. Another thing you can try is adding some dither fish. Something like giant danios works great, or australian rainbows as well. This will give the bullies something fast to chase and they will pay less attention to the other cichlids. I also used to move around some or all of the rocks each week when I did a water change. Hope some or all of this helps you. These fish are amazing and really worth taking a few lumps in the learning process. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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