lbo1000 Posted June 13 Share Posted June 13 So I want a short body flowerhorn. They get up to 8 inches. The general consensus with google searches/forums is that the minimum tank size is a 55. However, the minimum tank size for blood parrots and fancy goldfish is 29 gallons. Both of these fish are short bodied and max out at about 8 inches so I assume they have similar waste production as a short flowerhorn. The minimum tank size for a REGULAR flowerhorn (75g) is 4 times the length of the fish in length, and 1.5 times the length of the fish in width. A 29 gallon is about the same proportions for a short body, and 30Long is even larger proportion wise. However if you look up if a 29-40 gallon is ok for these fish you will get absolutely flamed. Given my calculations I really don't see the issue. I appreciate any insight on this and am open to criticism on my opinion. I am a beginner though, so bare with me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pepere Posted June 13 Share Posted June 13 I often wonder about so much “Accepted Wisdom” in this hobby. Someone reads posited “Wisdom” and vociferously defends it…. And reading multiple care guides often finds them in conflict with one another… I am often left wondering where the data is to back up assertions… Where is the data supporting that Shoaling fish need at least 6 of a species…. Do they fall off the cliff with 5? I dont know…It is easy enough to comply with 6… As to why the recommendation for minimum tank size for different species with similar body size? Could be due to temperament, activity levels.. Personally I have a hard time contemplating keeping an 8 inch fish in a 29 gallon tank. The majority of my fish in my 29 gallons top out under an inch, with a few approaching 2 inches… 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tony s Posted June 13 Share Posted June 13 I think it is due to activity levels. Fancy goldfish and blood parrots are kinda derpy swimmers. Not graceful at all. If you go to regular goldfish. The tank requirement gets much higher. I have thought about getting a flowerhorn. They are very active and can get bored in a small tank. Becoming destructive. The other thing to think about. When buying a flowerhorn. You’re getting a pet. Kinda like getting a dog. Not a small schooling fish. They will interact with you constantly. Would you keep a dog in a small pen? A large of tank as you can get would be better. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
doktor zhivago Posted June 13 Share Posted June 13 You can keep a large fish in a small aquarium and it will survive. However that's not exactly ideal for it's health and welfare which is probably why the cichlid forum guys are giving you an earful 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lbo1000 Posted June 13 Author Share Posted June 13 29/30 is my max,,, which is why I've been so pressed on this. I could *maybe* go up to a 40 if it seems like the best thing. But this is all theoretical at this point. But going back to what I mentioned on the OP, was that proportionally a 30Long for a short-body FH is the same moving room as a regular sized FH in a 75G. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mynameisnobody Posted June 13 Share Posted June 13 I had a flower horn in a 75 gallon. He wasn’t short bodied and he was quite large. Personally I’d never go with anything less than 75 for a full grown adult. With that said, a 40 gallon would be adequate for quite a while. When I would be looking to go bigger than 40: 1- it looks cramped and is bumping into stuff. 2- water parameters dependent on your indefinite water changes. If you can’t skip a water change because your parameters will go out of wack then I’d go larger. I would approach this more of a see as I go, but I would not rule out needing something bigger. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lbo1000 Posted June 13 Author Share Posted June 13 On 6/13/2024 at 6:21 AM, doktor zhivago said: You can keep a large fish in a small aquarium and it will survive. However that's not exactly ideal for it's health and welfare which is probably why the cichlid forum guys are giving you an earful Lol I didn't even try to make my own post there. Enough people before me tried that. On 6/13/2024 at 6:16 AM, Tony s said: I think it is due to activity levels. Fancy goldfish and blood parrots are kinda derpy swimmers. Not graceful at all. If you go to regular goldfish. The tank requirement gets much higher. I have thought about getting a flowerhorn. They are very active and can get bored in a small tank. Becoming destructive. The other thing to think about. When buying a flowerhorn. You’re getting a pet. Kinda like getting a dog. Not a small schooling fish. They will interact with you constantly. Would you keep a dog in a small pen? A large of tank as you can get would be better. 29/30 is my max,,, which is why I've been so pressed on this. I could *maybe* go up to a 40 if it seems like the best thing. But this is all theoretical at this point. But going back to what I mentioned on the OP, was that proportionally a 30Long for a short-body FH is the same moving room as a regular sized FH in a 75G. On 6/13/2024 at 6:25 AM, mynameisnobody said: I had a flower horn in a 75 gallon. He wasn’t short bodied and he was quite large. Personally I’d never go with anything less than 75 for a full grown adult. With that said, a 40 gallon would be adequate for quite a while. When I would be looking to go bigger than 40: 1- it looks cramped and is bumping into stuff. 2- water parameters dependent on your indefinite water changes. If you can’t skip a water change because your parameters will go out of wack then I’d go larger. I would approach this more of a see as I go, but I would not rule out needing something bigger. Thank you for your advice. Do you mean you'd never go less than 75 for a short body or a regular? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mynameisnobody Posted June 13 Share Posted June 13 (edited) 75 regular 40 short bodied but monitor and potentially move it up to a 55 if maintenance is too much or it looks cramped. 29 gallon only for fry. I would never put anything that gets over 4” in a 29. 8” is just too big. Edited June 13 by mynameisnobody Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lefty o Posted June 13 Share Posted June 13 imo, for any fish that gets to 8" or so, its just unfair to the fish to stick it in something like a 29. will it live, yes, will it have much room to swim, no. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tlindsey Posted June 13 Share Posted June 13 Flowerhorn are hybrid so the size will vary. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gardenman Posted June 13 Share Posted June 13 Like with pretty much everything else, "it depends" is often the best answer. If you take a 75 or 90-gallon tank and fill it with rocks, driftwood, etc., the fish may end up with less swimming room than in a 29-gallon tank that has nothing but water in it. You might get an especially lethargic flowerhorn who hangs out in one spot no matter how big the tank is. (In general, the smarter fish tend to hang out where they're fed. I've seen koi ponds where some koi never leave the area of the autofeeder. "What's that you say? There's lots of swimming space over there? That's nice, but the food comes out here, so I'll just be here. You go swim over there if you'd like.") Nothing we do in the aquarium hobby comes even remotely close to replicating even the smallest lake, river, or stream. Any tank is going to be cramped by those standards. If you can keep a flowerhorn happy and healthy in a 29-gallon tank, go for it. They're typically kept in even smaller tanks as they're raised and held for sale. A 29-gallon tank all to himself may feel like an ocean to a flowerhorn used to being kept in a smaller tank. By the way, Predatory Fins on YouTube visited a number of Flowerhorn breeders on their recent Asian trip, so you can see how the breeders keep their flowerhorns. Is a 29-gallon tank ideal? No. Is a 55, 75, 90, 120, 300-gallon tank ideal? No. Nothing is as good as a lake or river. There is the slight advantage of not having things trying to eat you in a smaller aquarium while in the wild pretty much everything is trying to eat you. For pretty much every fish a bigger aquarium is better, but nothing we do will ever replicate the volume they have in the wild. If you're comfortable keeping a flowerhorn in a 29 and the fish is happy and healthy, go for it. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mynameisnobody Posted June 13 Share Posted June 13 @gardenman I agree, however experience plays a huge factor in this equation. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
face Posted June 13 Share Posted June 13 It’s all opinions remember you can keep a fish alive on a table with sprinkles (it’s been done )as for stalking numbers 6 is just a number in reality they should be kept in big numbers like 20 or more but 6 is a convenient number that’s all 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mynameisnobody Posted June 13 Share Posted June 13 6 is a number used for the high probability of getting a pair. It’s been stretched a bit to include schooling fish when in reality it is more like schools of hundreds. However that’s why 6 is used. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tanked Posted June 13 Share Posted June 13 This is a situation where bigger is probably better, and 'better' is largely opinion. While a single 8" fish in a 29 isn't ideal, your SBFH might stop growing at 6" or go on to 10". Providing swimming space in all directions, a 40 breeder wouldn't be the same as a river or lake, but it would be a lot of space for a single fish. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tony s Posted June 13 Share Posted June 13 (edited) On 6/13/2024 at 12:00 PM, face said: as for stalking numbers 6 is just a number in reality they should be kept in big numbers like 20 yeah, i never buy into that, unless it's a nanotank <20g. you get so much more interesting behavior when you at least do 12 (or bigger) On 6/13/2024 at 9:23 AM, gardenman said: They're typically kept in even smaller tanks as they're raised and held for sale That's true but they're also not trying to do long term homes for those animals. The thing that I worry about the 29g, it's only 12 inches wide. not a lot of turn around room. I'm almost always willing to push the smaller dimensions. especially with a schooling fish. not necessarily with a pet. just for comparison. In the meat industry you use 7 sq foot for a 250 lb animal. you stock them in groups, so there's plenty of space to move around and get food and water. a 75g tank is 6 sq feet Edited June 13 by Tony s 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lennie Posted June 13 Share Posted June 13 (edited) On 6/13/2024 at 11:50 AM, lbo1000 said: So I want a short body flowerhorn. They get up to 8 inches. The general consensus with google searches/forums is that the minimum tank size is a 55. However, the minimum tank size for blood parrots and fancy goldfish is 29 gallons. Both of these fish are short bodied and max out at about 8 inches so I assume they have similar waste production as a short flowerhorn. The minimum tank size for a REGULAR flowerhorn (75g) is 4 times the length of the fish in length, and 1.5 times the length of the fish in width. A 29 gallon is about the same proportions for a short body, and 30Long is even larger proportion wise. However if you look up if a 29-40 gallon is ok for these fish you will get absolutely flamed. Given my calculations I really don't see the issue. I appreciate any insight on this and am open to criticism on my opinion. I am a beginner though, so bare with me. I dont think 29g is suitable for any of those fish you mentioned really. If you google enough, you can find so many people keeping even goldfish in a 1 liter bowl online. You will always find numbers or care guides being recommended everywhere. Many people that love to comment on or write about stuff don't even have first hand experience with such fish. I did keep blood parrots in the past (my biggest regret along with discus sadly in this hobby) and I have goldfish. I don't have fh but I do know 3 people who has/had it. I don't think anything below 40g is suitable for a fancy goldfish that doesnt grow crazy big, but long body ones basically needs a very big tank or a pond. Ideally, I think even my 160 liter tank started feeling optimal in less than a year and I dont know what to do with mine in the future and they are indeed fancy goldfish. The reason why maybe it is adviced to keep goldfish at 29g because many goldfish today barely can even swim properly due to being bred to look "cute" with horrible effects on the fish's health overall, and even on the most basic aspects of its life like swimming or seeing. But for more normally shaped bodied healthier goldfish, bigger tanks or even ponds are awesome based on where you live ofc. Flowerhorns are basically kept at just barebottom no decoration tanks. Because their human made hybrid nature, their huge heads are fragile. I believe that's being the main reason why, not many people are willing to keep a single fish in a just zero decoration fish only tank even barebottom and spare a big tank at home just for that. Most people don't have many tanks like so many of us do here, so they want to utilise their space at home and the species they keep based on the conditions. FHs are fairly active swimmers, unlike many fancy goldfish. I know some might not agree with me, but hybrid fish commonly tend to be already problematic as they are already. Even going further and having a "short body" would make it even worse. The look comes with MANY problems as it is basically just the look to the eye, but overall completely more health issues to the fish itself. I would sincerely encourage to focus on optimal conditions and best care rather than focusing on the minimums. Meeting bare minimums is not the same with providing an ideal environment if you ask me. I could sustain my life based on living on meeting my own minimum requirements, but I wouldn't want that my whole life by any means. Especially considering we choose to keep fish, regardless of their will to be kept as is, at least we should try to provide our best, and minimum requirements are not meeting the best standards by any means. Personally, if I am only able to meet the minimums for a fish with such size and activity level, I would rather pass and try to set up a tank with smaller species that would find it heavenly Edited June 13 by Lennie 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Airborne 82nd Posted June 14 Share Posted June 14 29/30 is my max,,, which is why I've been so pressed on this. I could *maybe* go up to a 40 if it seems like the best thing. But this is all theoretical at this point. But going back to what I mentioned on the OP, was that proportionally a 30Long for a short-body FH is the same moving room as a regular sized FH in a 75G. Why is this your max? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lbo1000 Posted June 14 Author Share Posted June 14 On 6/13/2024 at 9:10 PM, Airborne 82nd said: 29/30 is my max,,, which is why I've been so pressed on this. I could *maybe* go up to a 40 if it seems like the best thing. But this is all theoretical at this point. But going back to what I mentioned on the OP, was that proportionally a 30Long for a short-body FH is the same moving room as a regular sized FH in a 75G. Why is this your max? Because I'm probably going to have to rent in a few years. I don't want to severely limit my renting options when that time comes. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tony s Posted June 14 Share Posted June 14 On 6/13/2024 at 11:38 PM, lbo1000 said: Because I'm probably going to have to rent in a few years. I don't want to severely limit my renting options when that time comes Well you can go either way. If you really want the flowerhorn. Step up to the 40g short term. Preferably moving to a 55g as it gets bigger. With the understanding that you may have to rehome it if necessary. People do this with dogs all the time. Unfortunately. Life changes fast. You may not even need or want to rent in a couple of years. Or if you can show your new landlord what a 55g and flowerhorn look like. You may get approved. Or just rent from someone who is not worried about it in the first place. A couple of years away can be a very long time for a fish and keeper. or pick a fish that will fit in the 29 gallon. Could do a blood parrot for a cichlid. Or polar blue blood parrot for that matter. Not the same I know. But still personable. We had someone rehome a parrot at our lfs a couple months ago. Due to age. It was huge and beautiful. And looked very well kept for a long time. Named Fat Albert. I would have loved to have helped but didn’t have the space. So really there are options. You could even wait until you’re really ready for your flowerhorn. I just think long term you’ll be happier knowing you did right by your pet. And it will be happier as well. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tony s Posted June 14 Share Posted June 14 so, really not much in the way of flames here🤣 most of us understand sometimes you want what you want, and try to offer the best ways for you to get it 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
daggaz Posted June 14 Share Posted June 14 (edited) On 6/13/2024 at 11:44 AM, Pepere said: Where is the data supporting that Shoaling fish need at least 6 of a species…. Do they fall off the cliff with 5? I dont know…It is easy enough to comply with 6… That's a conspiracy from Big Aquarium, who only sells fish at a discount in groups of 5. Coincidence? I THINK NOT. I bought 5 glass catfish. They are all thriving. Four of them swim together at all times, and the fifth one is like Diogenes sitting in his big pot outside the city walls. He doesn't give a ****. Edited June 14 by daggaz 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pepere Posted June 14 Share Posted June 14 (edited) On 6/14/2024 at 12:36 AM, daggaz said: bought 5 glass catfish. They are all thriving. Four of them swim together at all times, and the fifth one is like Diogenes sitting in his big pot outside the city walls. He doesn't give a ****. Similar is what has caused me to question the received wisdom… I have seen groups of 5 sticking together where the 6th fish is a loner…consistently. obviously some cant count…. And that has me thinking I need at least a seventh.. cause if the one loaner is harming the other 5 cause they dont have a sixth to school with them,,, If I have a seventh the loaner will only be hurting himself… But what if the new one buddies up with the loner? Back to square 1… Edited June 14 by Pepere 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
daggaz Posted June 14 Share Posted June 14 Maybe they should go to SCHOOL. 😀 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tanked Posted June 14 Share Posted June 14 My 3 Barbonymous Altus (Red Tail Tinfoil Barbs) used to swim single file, back and forth in the 29. When I was able to upgrade to the 75, the only noticeable change was the time between turns. When I added three more, the school of 6 did become more interactive. Over time, the school has dwindled to four. The only noticeable changes: While patrolling, one fish will occasionally remain separate from the others as if escorting them. The smallest of the barbs occasionally pretends to be a Border Collie, swimming side by side, another barb, herding and separating it from the group before darting away. It might be breeding behavior, or it could just be having a moment. Six might be the magic number for breeding odds, but otherwise, I think it is just a number. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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