Bloating issue

[Chick-In-Of-TheSea]

Is this disease or eggbinding or something else?

@Colu @xXInkedPhoenixX @Odd Duck 

 

 

Edited May 19 by Chick-In-Of-TheSea

[Colu]

Possibly egg bound what I would do  is epsom salt baths if 1 table spoon for 1 gallon for no more than 15 minutes for 5 days if your not seeing any improvement after a couple of days or the bloating looks worse @Chick-In-Of-TheSea

[Chick-In-Of-TheSea]

Two epsom treatments have been done on the fishie. She does very well with them. I use an airstone in the epsom bath. When I return her to the tank she re-schools and resumes catching microfauna with the others. They like catching ostracods and copepods throughout the day. I used the macro lens to see what they were biting at. I cannot tell if there is improvement, but she doesn’t seem to act like anything is wrong.

Edited May 21 by Chick-In-Of-TheSea

[Colu]

On 5/21/2024 at 11:07 AM, Chick-In-Of-TheSea said:

Two epsom treatments have been done on the fishie. She does very well with them. I use an airstone in the epsom bath. When I return her to the tank she re-schools and resumes catching microfauna with the others. They like catching ostracods and copepods throughout the day. I used the macro lens to see what they were biting at. I cannot tell if there is improvement, but she doesn’t seem to act like anything is wrong.

As your seeing no reduction in the bloating I would also fast for a couple of days while doing the epsom salt baths 

[Chick-In-Of-TheSea]

On 5/21/2024 at 6:28 AM, Colu said:

As your seeing no reduction in the bloating I would also fast for a couple of days while doing the epsom salt baths 

Yes I have been fasting the tank.

[Colu]

On 5/21/2024 at 12:05 PM, Chick-In-Of-TheSea said:

Yes I have been fasting the tank.

Hopefully you will see some improvement after the five days of epsom salt and fasting 

[Odd Duck]

Do all that @Colu has recommended but I’m concerned that isn’t just egg binding.  Could be a mass growing inside the body cavity.  😬 See how the fishy does and keep trying the Epsom soaks.  Since the fishy is doing well with them you can push the time a bit up to 30 minutes but move her back to the tank if she shows any distress at all.

[Chick-In-Of-TheSea]

We did 12 minutes today. She was darting and it made me nervous, so I returned her at that point. Here are some photos from this evening. She had turned off her stripe while she was in the epsom bath, and is starting to turn it back on now that she sees her school.

 

[xXInkedPhoenixX]

Soooo, I'm with @Odd Duck on this. I hope what you're doing is improving the situation but I've had 3 Black Neons die from bloating like this. I thought at first egg bound too. I tried soaks, meds, salt, IAL, QT, etc but in the end they've all died and it doesn't effect any other fish (time between deaths lengthy enough for me to be confident in saying this). I just leave them in the tank now and let nature take its course. If they get too handicapped I put them in a floating breeder. 

[Chick-In-Of-TheSea]

On 5/22/2024 at 12:27 PM, xXInkedPhoenixX said:

Soooo, I'm with @Odd Duck on this. I hope what you're doing is improving the situation but I've had 3 Black Neons die from bloating like this. I thought at first egg bound too. I tried soaks, meds, salt, IAL, QT, etc but in the end they've all died and it doesn't effect any other fish (time between deaths lengthy enough for me to be confident in saying this). I just leave them in the tank now and let nature take its course. If they get too handicapped I put them in a floating breeder. 

Strange. I’ve had one black neon in the past affected by this as well.

[Chick-In-Of-TheSea]

We got to 17 or 18 min today on the Epsom bath. This was day 4.

[Chick-In-Of-TheSea]

[Chick-In-Of-TheSea]

Today was the last day of treatment. We did 17 minutes. She starts darting at about that point, I noticed.

[Colu]

On 5/24/2024 at 2:41 AM, Chick-In-Of-TheSea said:

Today was the last day of treatment. We did 17 minutes. She starts darting at about that point, I noticed.

Am not seeing any improvement could be a mass in the body cavity as @Odd Duck suggested not much treatment wise I could suggest for that other than monitor 

Edited May 28 by Colu

[Chick-In-Of-TheSea]

I prepared a quarantine tank with salt. I was going to try that?  Could this be something like dropsy?

https://www.aquariumcoop.com/blogs/faqs/bloated-fish

Edited May 28 by Chick-In-Of-TheSea

[Colu]

It's possible you could have organ failure that caused fluid buildup in the body cavity parasite are l less likely unless you added fish recently that you didn't quarantine small chance of an internal bacterial infections what you could do is add aquarium salt to help reduce any possible fluid buildup do a course of maracyn2 in food feeding a small amount twice a day for 7 days to treat any possible internal bacterial infections and dose the tank with metroplex for upto 3 weeks that most effective treatment I have found for dropsy@Chick-In-Of-TheSea

Edited June 1 by Colu

[Chick-In-Of-TheSea]

On 5/28/2024 at 6:43 AM, Colu said:

It's possible you could have organ failure that caused fluid buildup in the body cavity parasite are l less likely unless you added fish recently that you didn't quarantine small chance of an internal bacterial infections what you could do is add aquarium salt to help reduce any possible fluid buildup do a course of maracyn in food feeding a small amount twice a day for 7 days to treat any possible internal bacterial infections and dose the tank with metroplex for upto 3 weeks that most effective treatment I have found for dropsy@Chick-In-Of-TheSea

Thanks. No fish were added recently.

@Colu any idea of success rate? I read dropsy is hard to cure?

Also I do not see any pineconing

Edited May 28 by Chick-In-Of-TheSea

[Colu]

On 5/28/2024 at 10:04 PM, Chick-In-Of-TheSea said:

Thanks. No fish were added recently.

@Colu any idea of success rate? I read dropsy is hard to cure?

Also I do not see any pineconing

Even with the  treatment I recommended it still has a high mortality rate this is the treatment I have found most effective 

[Chick-In-Of-TheSea]

 

[Chick-In-Of-TheSea]

The fishy was just sitting there on the bottom, not moving much. I decided to try Kanaplex because of all the meds I have it is labeled for dropsy which is a type of bloating, and I don’t have the metroplex.

Then I decided to move another fish in. Red gill fish that’s been in the other quarantine, because salt level 2 didn’t cure it.  I normally don’t play musical quarantines but they both need the treatment. I wasn’t sure if there would be any bullying because of how lethargic the neon was acting, but upon release of the head-and-taillight tetra, she was immediately intrigued and upbeat and eager to follow him around! He doesn’t seem to mind, and I think they are friends?  She seemed so depressed and now she’s done a 180 and is swimming all around with her buddy.

 

[Odd Duck]

Kanaplex is NOT significantly absorbed from the gut so it’s a poor choice for anything that could cause dropsy.  Yes, I know it says it can treat it on the label but the law is very weak and quite frankly terrible about the over-the-counter fish antibiotics and requiring proof they do what they claim they can do.  A simple google search will show you that kanamycin is poorly absorbed from the gut in every single species studied (including a few studies in fish).  It can be slightly absorbed through the gills but not to the degree it needs to be for appropriate tissue levels to fight an internal infection.

Dropsy can be caused by many different things from an internal bacterial infection, organ (liver or kidney) failure, a mass inside the body cavity (coelom), etc, but none are likely to respond to kanamycin.  It’s a great antibiotic for surface wounds, skin infections, fin infections that haven’t gone into deep tissue, yet, etc.  But it’s not going to do much for an enlargement inside the coelom.  Maracyn-2 (minocycline) IS absorbed through the gut and is broad spectrum enough to work on many internal infections.  Combining it with metronidazole and that gives an even more broad spectrum coverage since metronidazole fills in a few gaps getting some bacteria that minocycline doesn’t.  If the minocycline and metronidazole combo doesn’t work you can try adding regular Maracyn (erythromycin) which is also absorbed from the gut.  If that triple combo doesn’t work there isn’t anything over the counter you can get that will clear an internal bacterial issue.

Sadly, I suspect this is more serious than an infection if it hasn’t responded to treatment so far.

[Chick-In-Of-TheSea]

On 6/1/2024 at 2:33 PM, Odd Duck said:

Kanaplex is NOT significantly absorbed from the gut so it’s a poor choice for anything that could cause dropsy.  Yes, I know it says it can treat it on the label but the law is very weak and quite frankly terrible about the over-the-counter fish antibiotics and requiring proof they do what they claim they can do.  A simple google search will show you that kanamycin is poorly absorbed from the gut in every single species studied (including a few studies in fish).  It can be slightly absorbed through the gills but not to the degree it needs to be for appropriate tissue levels to fight an internal infection.

Dropsy can be caused by many different things from an internal bacterial infection, organ (liver or kidney) failure, a mass inside the body cavity (coelom), etc, but none are likely to respond to kanamycin.  It’s a great antibiotic for surface wounds, skin infections, fin infections that haven’t gone into deep tissue, yet, etc.  But it’s not going to do much for an enlargement inside the coelom.  Maracyn-2 (minocycline) IS absorbed through the gut and is broad spectrum enough to work on many internal infections.  Combining it with metronidazole and that gives an even more broad spectrum coverage since metronidazole fills in a few gaps getting some bacteria that minocycline doesn’t.  If the minocycline and metronidazole combo doesn’t work you can try adding regular Maracyn (erythromycin) which is also absorbed from the gut.  If that triple combo doesn’t work there isn’t anything over the counter you can get that will clear an internal bacterial issue.

Sadly, I suspect this is more serious than an infection if it hasn’t responded to treatment so far.

Well 💩

How long should I rest the fish after Kanaplex before starting the next treatment? I plan to finish Kanaplex (one more dose left) due to red gill guy that is in with her. I have these foods
 

 

Edited June 2 by Chick-In-Of-TheSea

[Odd Duck]

Can you get Maracyn or Maracyn-2?  Metronidazole has its uses but it wouldn’t be my go to for either of the fish you’re treating.  Maracyn-2 would be.

[Chick-In-Of-TheSea]

On 6/4/2024 at 12:05 PM, Odd Duck said:

Can you get Maracyn or Maracyn-2?  Metronidazole has its uses but it wouldn’t be my go to for either of the fish you’re treating.  Maracyn-2 would be.

I have both Maracyn and Maracyn 2 in my fishy medicine cabinet.

On 6/1/2024 at 2:33 PM, Odd Duck said:

Maracyn-2 (minocycline) IS absorbed through the gut and is broad spectrum enough to work on many internal infections.  Combining it with metronidazole and that gives an even more broad spectrum coverage since metronidazole fills in a few gaps getting some bacteria that minocycline doesn’t.  

 

On 6/4/2024 at 12:05 PM, Odd Duck said:

Can you get Maracyn or Maracyn-2?  Metronidazole has its uses but it wouldn’t be my go to for either of the fish you’re treating.  Maracyn-2 would be.

@Odd Duck I thought I was supposed to combine them per quote #1?

 

I just did a 50% wc yesterday to remove the Kanaplex, and I am running carbon. Just trying to figure out 1) how long of a rest period and 2) which meds.

Edited June 4 by Chick-In-Of-TheSea

[Odd Duck]

You can try it but the more I think about it the less I think this is bacterial.  Just trying to be honest.  Either one of the foods you have would work for the metronidazole.

I’m currently fighting a cold so my brain may not be at peak.