Panda Corys Struggling

[Sondra Bradshaw]

HELP! I used to have 15 fish. 13 panda corydoras and 2 angelfish. I am now down to 5 panda corydoras after a month of havoc and losing all of my fish, to these survivors who have survived an extra month compared to the rest. 
 

ph: 7.5 

ammonia 0 

nitrite 0 

nitrate 5 ppm 

kh 4dkh

gh 10dgh

Temp 75 Fahrenheit 

They have been undergoing treatment pretty much the entire month, but different medications. First- Melafix. Second- EM Erythromacyn Third- Paracleanse (mostly metronidazole with a little praziquental in it). Paracleanse has only been over for 3 days but plan to do another course of treatment in two weeks. However, I'm not even sure if I'm using the correct medication. I am only 6 months into the hobby and this has been a disaster. 
 

before medication, all similar symptoms included: 

weak, sunken belly, eyes popping out, red gills and recently noticed 2/5 Cories doing some flashing (a day after treatment of paracleanse) as well as poop sticking to their butt... kinda like parasites would do. 
 

now here are some current photos of them. They look to be struggling more than before the medication? But I don't know if it's normal? Should I be doing a different medication? Can someone please advise me on this? 
 

and yes! They're eating some bladder snails with their pellets 😂❤️

[MattyM]

I don't know if it's just me but all the photos are black. 

[Sondra Bradshaw]

@MattyM

 

I had to take new photos off of the website for some reason to upload so sadly the good photo I got of my Cory eating the bladder snail didn't get posted 😩

[Colu]

How long have you had the fish before the first death and how long between the fish showing symptoms and dieing When you first started losing did notice if you had an ammonia or nitrite spike have you  noticed any other symptoms such rapid breathing hanging out near the surface lethargy spitting food out white stringy poop over production of the slime coat @Sondra Bradshaw

Edited March 29 by Colu
Typo

[MattyM]

It seems you have Colu's attention now so you are in good hands! 

[Sondra Bradshaw]

@Colu

 

hopefully you have gotten my replies. I do not see them on here at all. 

[Colu]

On 3/29/2024 at 5:01 PM, Sondra Bradshaw said:

@Colu

 

hopefully you have gotten my replies. I do not see them on here at all. 

No I can't see your replies 

[Sondra Bradshaw]

On 3/29/2024 at 11:31 AM, Colu said:

How long have you had the first before the first death and long between the fish showing symptoms and dieing When you first started losing did notice if you had an ammonia or nitrite spike have you  noticed any other symptoms such rapid breathing hanging out near the surface lethargy spitting food out white stringy poop over production of the slime coat @Sondra Bradshaw

Okay, so I think I figured out what I did wrong and why it wasn't replying to you. I didn't know you had to quote a comment. Didn't even know that was a thing. Now I know 😂 

Anyways, I wish I would have copy and pasted this information but here it goes again 🙂 hopefully this'll give you all the information you need to help me out! 
 

Starting from when deaths began, was when I received a school of 6 panda corydoras from live aquaria on January 12th, 2024. The next day, I lost one. Beforehand, it was going nuts in the tank... so I was worried about that one to begin with and thought it was due to acclimation. Fast forward to February 6th, I set up a quarantine tank for my angel, who was lethargic, had shown white spots and fin rot that would come and go, and I saw her move her mouth oddly, like she was choking, and noticed white in her mouth. Put her in a quarantine tank with aeration, a little aquarium salt and Melafix (people's suggestion). She died February 8th. Very weak, at the surface for air, and had swam to me to say goodbye it seemed, and then swam in a corner, laid on her side, and died a few minutes later. thought this was happening due to aggression with the other angel. 

lost a Cory February 12th and its eye was missing? There was my sand substrate in his eye socket... disturbing. Down to 4 Cories and my one angel. Was lethargic before it died. By February 24th, I lost 2 more Cories. Both had similar behavior to the previous one on the 12th: lethargic, spiraling around in the water, reddish gills and sunken belly. Now am down to 2 Cories and my one angel. Not realizing this was parasites (I am so new in the hobby. Kept thinking acclimation/stress issues... but at the same time, I knew something was up). I decided to go to my local fish store 2/26 (an hour away) and get 6 more panda corydoras. They gave me a plus 1. I did the whole floating bag in the water for 15 min, dump water out of bag in the sink and added tank water, let sit for about 25 min and netted into tank. Now I have 9 panda corydoras and one angel. (My reasoning- I had an experienced hobbyist telling me that it was due to acclimation and nothing else so figured he was right). 2/27 and 2/28 lost a Cory each day with red blotch disease. Down to 7 Cory's. Lost another Cory 3/1 in the am with white fungus and it's tail gone. Lost ANOTHER Cory 3/1 in the pm with no sign of illness. Megan melafix on 2/27 but had lost my angel 2/29 in the pm which he executed the most symptoms of parasites. He broke my heart. Pale/blue tone, bulging eyes, loss of appetite (didn't eat for 3 days), red gills, skinny/sunken belly, lethargic, trying to get air at top of tank, I and kept getting his poor self stuck in the current. Oof. 

Now  I have gone through all of the deaths and looked through my notebook. Everything seemed fine but with everything that happened, I knew something was serious so I tried figuring it out. I used EM Erythromacyn starting on 3/13. Had to find the medication and research. I had originally gotten paracleanse but I was worried about its use. Finished treatment 3/18. They seemed alright and the most active but then noticed them all really lethargic and just displaying some familiar symptoms the others had shown. And that's where we are at. With paracleanse. Started paracleanse 3/21 and have been finished since 3/26. 3/27 I noticed a Cory trying to poop brown, with white closer to his butt... figured normal, trying to get parasites out. Gave them all some algae wafers and siphoned the tank 3/28. 3/28 and today (3/29) I have noticed some flashing behavior, and a couple more Cories with the same type of poop as the one on 3/27 I noticed. Fed them some veggie wafers tonight to help with that. 
 

sorry for all of this information. Blah. Just really trying to get this figured out with any possible information that could help me. I really love my tank and fish and I want to add more fish eventually and such but I just can't until this is figured out. I'm worried it may not be the right medication as I've noticed their gills a little more red today as well as they just seem skinny but continuously eating. I'm just concerned and am wondering if I need to use a different medication, or maybe begin another treatment with paracleanse at the week mark, or do my original plan and wait 2 weeks. Any advice/help is much appreciated. Again, sorry for such the long message. Also, no change in parameters. When things are going weird in my tank/during treatment, I check every other day. When things are normal, I check every week. 
 

[Colu]

It's sound like you've had couple of things going on a parasitc infection with being lethargic sunken belly that can also weaken there immune system leading to secondary bacterial infections what I would do is @Odd Ducktreatment protocol for parasitic infections you can use paracleanse active ingredient praziquantel and metronidazole and expel p active ingredient levamisole I wouldn't recommend Melafix for anything serious  it more of mild antiseptic treatment @Sondra Bradshaw

[Sondra Bradshaw]

@Colu

 

Seriously, thank you so much! I am definitely going to start researching and getting the medication for them as you suggested! I REALLY appreciate the advice on this. I have asked numerous groups, pretty much just as lengthy. But I know a lot don't care enough to read it all. However, in this case I felt it was necessary because each time I have tried to ask for help about this, people go straight to Melafix. But actually going deeper into research with it on reddit and such, realizing pretty much a bandaid. Man, I wish I would have known earlier but Google was throwing so many different diseases.. wasn't taking into account that they can get multiple illnesses at once like that. Poor babies! They are some strong fish! 

[Odd Duck]

How big were the angels?  I ask because losing an eye can be from other fish picking on them and so can red spots on the body.  That makes me wonder if you didn’t have an angel bully (they don’t always have angelic behavior).  Then the deaths caused ammonia surges that started everything in a downward spiral?  Speculative at this point.

I agree with @Colu on doing a very strict regimen on deworming since timing is critical to break the parasite’s lifecycle for the best chance to fully clear the parasites.  Gill redness is often secondary to excess ammonia, nitrites, or long term, significantly elevated nitrates.  Your parameters don’t sound bad at all, but you could still have had some transient spikes.  In a mature tank the spike can get pretty high fast and then clear before you test it.  Gasping at the top of the water implies either low oxygen in the water or gill burn causing poor oxygen absorption from inflamed and thickened gills.

I definitely recommend an extra airstone or 2 with any history of fish gasping at the surface.  If cories are gasping at the surface (not just their normal dash and gulp but persistent gasping), things are very serious and you should immediately add extra airstones, test the water, then change water, or otherwise dramatically increase water surface exchange / turnover.  Angels are more likely to surface gasp because they are more likely to spend time at the top.  But it’s still a very serious symptom for the tank as a whole.

Is there any film at the surface or persistent bubbles on the surface?

I know lots of questions vs. the answers you want.  But we can figure out more with more information and give better quality of advice if we know more.

[Sondra Bradshaw]

@Odd Duck

Hi! Thank you so much for the information! I really appreciate it and honestly, the thought of it has crossed my mind with my one angel. He was a BIG 6 month angel. He was going to be HUGE. He was almost twice the size of the other angel who were about the same age. He loved to scavenge the bottom of the tank, after feed, and I noticed a couple times he had gotten confused and darted at the Cory's, thinking it was food and then swam away. It was ALWAYS after he was finished eating when he would act like he was going to eat them but then swim away. I know that had to have caused some stress to the Cory's and my other angel, which is why I initially thought it was stress and everyone getting acclimated to each other. Very, very interesting thought!! And it is a little strange to me after he had died, the remaining corys are still here when I was losing a Cory a day.... hm. Honestly I'm very curious about if you are right and that was the main culprit to these diseases, especially to newly acclimated fish. I know at one point, both of my corydoras that survived before I got the other school, were hiding underneath my spongefilter for two days. I thought I was going to lose them and then out of nowhere they came out-but that's what sparked my idea to get more, to help the Cories not feel threatened in the tank due to the angel. 
 

about aeration, I have a 40 gallon HOB filter, sponge filter and a wave maker in a 36 gal with plenty of plants. I have considered putting a bubble wall up closer to the surface, just to provide some more surface agitation, especially during treatment. The only time that I noticed gasping for air, was with the two angels, in different tanks, being treated with Melafix. Both were hanging at the top of the tank and both died two days after the start of treatment. Makes me question Melafix/pimafix products. Will probably only use this during qt before main tank, the first couple days and then observe from there and see if I need to do any further treatments. Do you think maybe adding a bubble wall would improve anything? I don't see them going up for air too often, but they definitely do here and there, as corys should.

 

i would like to backtrack a bit. In the beginning, my cycle crashed a few weeks in due to a low KH buffer with very high PH from tap, pretty much the buffer couldn't keep PH stable and it dropped below zero, killing all bacteria. It took me a LONG time to figure out what was going on until I tested tap. PH 8.6//KH 1.5dkh//GH 12dgh... I had started with crushed coral for awhile and it took my tank an additional two months to cycle again. I had both of my angels at this time and they went through a ton of water changes to get them through. However, maybe a month later is when my first angel got sick. Noticed my PH was fluctuating a ton as even with coral, KH was incredibly low for the PH... so began doing RO/tap mix with alkaline buffer up to 4 and since then, plants seem to be thriving better, same with the fish. My last angel died before the RO water... that definitely possibly played a roll in this, too. 

 

 

@Odd Duck 

 

here is a photo of the angel in question maybe a day or so before he passed. It won't let me attach the other photos of the corys with the potential red blotch disease. 😑 it keeps coming up as black for those for some reason. 

[Sondra Bradshaw]

@Odd Duck 

 

PH dropped below 6 🤦🏻‍♀️

[Odd Duck]

On 4/1/2024 at 9:50 AM, Sondra Bradshaw said:

@Odd Duck 

 

PH dropped below 6 🤦🏻‍♀️

That’s a big drop, for sure.  Could potentially have caused issues if it happened fast enough.

I do think the angels could have been at least part of the issue with the pygmy cories.  Pygmies are bite size for angels and I would not put them together myself.  Larger cories are fine but angels do tend to like warmer temps than cories, so keep that in mind with fish selection also.  When you keep most cory species with angels you are either pushing the top end for cories or the low end for angels.

I keep my Jack Dempseys at the low end of their ideal range to prevent them from breeding.  It’s been quite effective for about 3 years now.  But it isn’t ideal for their health.  Letting them breed wouldn’t be ideal for my mental health, though, so it is what it is unfortunately.  When I rescued them I kept them in the middle of,their ideal range and they bred, twice, before I wised up.  I had to deal with about 1600 fry between the 2 clutches.  1600-ish.  It was insane how many fish I had to deal with.  I was giving them away by the hundreds before I was done.  🤦🏻‍♀️ So the Jacks are a bit cooler than they prefer and I do warm water changes instead of cool water changes for them as another way to minimize breeding triggers.

It sounds like you have good circulation but if you like bubble walls, then use it.  It certainly won’t hurt anything other than cleaning up more spatter but with such low mineral water it shouldn’t be too bad.  Those bubbles lifting help stir the water and bring lower level water up to the surface.  They will also tend to roll over the whole water mass which is a good thing.  Place your other filters in such a way that they will encourage that roll over effect and the entire tank will benefit.

Personally I hate Melafix and Bettafix products.  Melaleuca oil has no business being in the tank water.  It has been proven to be a respiratory irritant and has potential to coat and inflame the gills.  It is definitely not something I would ever use and I recommend against its use often.  The only use I can see for it would be to paint it on a wound.  But there are better, more effective, and safer products for that.  It doubt it would ever be an approved product if it had to go through studies like FDA drugs.  Just my opinion.

Well, that’s a scattered around post - Squirrell!  But hopefully some helpful tidbits in there.

[Sondra Bradshaw]

On 4/1/2024 at 12:07 PM, Odd Duck said:

That’s a big drop, for sure.  Could potentially have caused issues if it happened fast enough.

I do think the angels could have been at least part of the issue with the pygmy cories.  Pygmies are bite size for angels and I would not put them together myself.  Larger cories are fine but angels do tend to like warmer temps than cories, so keep that in mind with fish selection also.  When you keep most cory species with angels you are either pushing the top end for cories or the low end for angels.

I keep my Jack Dempseys at the low end of their ideal range to prevent them from breeding.  It’s been quite effective for about 3 years now.  But it isn’t ideal for their health.  Letting them breed wouldn’t be ideal for my mental health, though, so it is what it is unfortunately.  When I rescued them I kept them in the middle of,their ideal range and they bred, twice, before I wised up.  I had to deal with about 1600 fry between the 2 clutches.  1600-ish.  It was insane how many fish I had to deal with.  I was giving them away by the hundreds before I was done.  🤦🏻‍♀️ So the Jacks are a bit cooler than they prefer and I do warm water changes instead of cool water changes for them as another way to minimize breeding triggers.

It sounds like you have good circulation but if you like bubble walls, then use it.  It certainly won’t hurt anything other than cleaning up more spatter but with such low mineral water it shouldn’t be too bad.  Those bubbles lifting help stir the water and bring lower level water up to the surface.  They will also tend to roll over the whole water mass which is a good thing.  Place your other filters in such a way that they will encourage that roll over effect and the entire tank will benefit.

Personally I hate Melafix and Bettafix products.  Melaleuca oil has no business being in the tank water.  It has been proven to be a respiratory irritant and has potential to coat and inflame the gills.  It is definitely not something I would ever use and I recommend against its use often.  The only use I can see for it would be to paint it on a wound.  But there are better, more effective, and safer products for that.  It doubt it would ever be an approved product if it had to go through studies like FDA drugs.  Just my opinion.

Well, that’s a scattered around post - Squirrell!  But hopefully some helpful tidbits in there.

@Odd Duck 

 

Hey! I am so sorry my other comment didn't reach you. I'm still learning this website. I thought I had quoted it? I don't even know. This time, I think it'll work. 
 

I wanted to say thank you so much for the advice and knowledge you have given me. I told my fiance, "I think I finally found the place to actually get some decent advice" as I've been seeking advice on other type of Facebook groups and on Reddit groups, but no one gives valid info even after providing the information needed to give me it. They provide lazy responses, if any, and I think that's basically because they don't read all of the information so I truly appreciate you for reading it all out and providing me a nice response even though it may be squirrel post! That's how my brain is! 😂 

I did want to add that they are panda corydoras, not Pygmy's. Not entirely too sure how big the Pygmy's get but my panda corys were definitely smaller when I got them but they've grown a TON since I've had them. Maybe they were just too small at the time. I'd really love for my corys to breed because I'd love to have more. I initially wanted 10 of them. And at this point, I need more. I have a bladder snail infestation going on and they were doing well eating them. Watched them eat some a few times. But yeah, they need some help 😂 but have to get this sickness dealt with. 
 Speaking of which, I do have a question. Sunday night, I had received Seachem Nourish bottle and it says it's supposed to help boost the immune system. I soaked their pellets in it, and gave it to them. Monday, I started treatment as well as it was on their fast day. So I did the whole keeping lights off for 24 hours and did a 25% water change as suggested. Waiting until Monday to begin the next treatment and was planning to wait a couple more days to dose paracleanse. They looked beautiful right after treatment, their vibrancy was awesome. Their bodies were white, and not the translucent/dulled out tone and really vibrant black. Then yesterday, I noticed a little bit of dulled tone again, and one Cory just wiggling at the glass closer to the bottom most of the day yesterday. At first thought maybe it was trying to eat some snail eggs or something, but he did it the entire day, almost rubbing his front whiskers on the glass? But in a nonchalant way as if nothing was wrong? But he would swim away normally when I bothered him too much by staring 😂 and now today, it looks almost like some of their bodies are a little raised? I guess like I can visibly see they're lines on their body? Swimming around normally. The one who was being weird yesterday is still pretty much doing the same thing but is leaving but going right back. He also seems a little lethargic compared to the rest and dulled tone. Do you have any idea what may be the issue? Or even what I can do to help? Could it potentially be from the nourish stuff? Been giving it to them the past few days, each feed. So probably 5 feeds. Which makes me feel like I should test parameters. Was thinking about the sickness they're dealing with, but maybe my parameters are off as I've put the cap full of nourish in with their food? Not sure if that would make too much of a difference.  I'll try and attach a video. My son is watching Peppa Pig, so excuse his show in the background. 😂

On 4/4/2024 at 1:26 PM, Sondra Bradshaw said:

@Odd Duck 

 

Hey! I am so sorry my other comment didn't reach you. I'm still learning this website. I thought I had quoted it? I don't even know. This time, I think it'll work. 
 

I wanted to say thank you so much for the advice and knowledge you have given me. I told my fiance, "I think I finally found the place to actually get some decent advice" as I've been seeking advice on other type of Facebook groups and on Reddit groups, but no one gives valid info even after providing the information needed to give me it. They provide lazy responses, if any, and I think that's basically because they don't read all of the information so I truly appreciate you for reading it all out and providing me a nice response even though it may be squirrel post! That's how my brain is! 😂 

I did want to add that they are panda corydoras, not Pygmy's. Not entirely too sure how big the Pygmy's get but my panda corys were definitely smaller when I got them but they've grown a TON since I've had them. Maybe they were just too small at the time. I'd really love for my corys to breed because I'd love to have more. I initially wanted 10 of them. And at this point, I need more. I have a bladder snail infestation going on and they were doing well eating them. Watched them eat some a few times. But yeah, they need some help 😂 but have to get this sickness dealt with. 
 Speaking of which, I do have a question. Sunday night, I had received Seachem Nourish bottle and it says it's supposed to help boost the immune system. I soaked their pellets in it, and gave it to them. Monday, I started treatment as well as it was on their fast day. So I did the whole keeping lights off for 24 hours and did a 25% water change as suggested. Waiting until Monday to begin the next treatment and was planning to wait a couple more days to dose paracleanse. They looked beautiful right after treatment, their vibrancy was awesome. Their bodies were white, and not the translucent/dulled out tone and really vibrant black. Then yesterday, I noticed a little bit of dulled tone again, and one Cory just wiggling at the glass closer to the bottom most of the day yesterday. At first thought maybe it was trying to eat some snail eggs or something, but he did it the entire day, almost rubbing his front whiskers on the glass? But in a nonchalant way as if nothing was wrong? But he would swim away normally when I bothered him too much by staring 😂 and now today, it looks almost like some of their bodies are a little raised? I guess like I can visibly see they're lines on their body? Swimming around normally. The one who was being weird yesterday is still pretty much doing the same thing but is leaving but going right back. He also seems a little lethargic compared to the rest and dulled tone. Do you have any idea what may be the issue? Or even what I can do to help? Could it potentially be from the nourish stuff? Been giving it to them the past few days, each feed. So probably 5 feeds. Which makes me feel like I should test parameters. Was thinking about the sickness they're dealing with, but maybe my parameters are off as I've put the cap full of nourish in with their food? Not sure if that would make too much of a difference.  I'll try and attach a video. My son is watching Peppa Pig, so excuse his show in the background. 😂

Wouldn't let me take any videos... going to test water parameters here in a bit and post those too. @Odd Duck

[Odd Duck]

I see that you said pandas, you posted pictures of pandas, and my silly old brain still was thinking pygmies.  🤦🏻‍♀️ 🤷🏻‍♀️ Sometimes I wonder where it’s wandered off!  😝 

Most pandas are sold large enough to be OK with all but adult angels and they grow faster than angels so usually if juveniles are put together you would be OK with pandas and angels.  I would guess that particularly cantankerous angels might pick on very young juvie pandas so I can’t completely rule it out although it's certainly much less likely an issue than pygmy cories would be.  They are so tiny and adorable!  Pandas are adorable, too, and I would have a shoal of pandas if I had a tank right for them.

I’m hoping that once you get everything in the tank sorted and everybody dewormed that your fish will show you nice, robust health!