Janel R Posted March 20 Share Posted March 20 (edited) I'm new to neocaridina shrimp, and I've been trying to start up a cherry shrimp colony, but I'm consistently losing the females to what seems to be a molt problem. They all have either shown up dead with the dreaded white ring around them, or had the ring for a couple days first and then died. Three females from my first batch passed over the course of about a month, leaving me with just one, a male. So I had one of my local fish stores test the water, expecting to find either a PH or hardness issue. The guy at the store said my PH was too high and recommended RO water, which they sell. So I bought some of the water from them, and tested it to know for sure what I was getting into, and... it's virtually the same as my tap water. The only sure difference is a small one: GH measures around 180 ppm in the RO, 195 in my tap. PH is at least 7.6, and KH is around 110 ppm. My tap tests the same on these, maybe I should buy a high PH test kit to know for sure since it's at the top of the regular scale? Oof, so many kits... I know the RO water isn't supposed to lower PH directly, but to my understanding it IS supposed to remove minerals from the water, thereby lowering KH and GH, and possibly PH as a consequence of the fewer minerals... right? So I called the store back to clarify this... and the employee (different guy this time) wouldn't explain it. In fact, he just insisted that their RO water comes out soft (so I just can't read a test) and that they keep their shrimp in 6.5 PH water... and then hung up on me. Decided to just try again and see if I could figure it out before they all die again, so when I bought replacement cherries from that store I took the opportunity to simply test their water myself. Lo' and behold... PH: 7.6+, KH: 110 ppm, GH: a whopping 358 ppm! At this point, I'm guessing both these guys thought I was talking about crystal shrimp the whole time even though I was very clear in asking about Neocaridinas, and I'm back where I started in terms of not knowing what to do with their water. So to summarize, the new cherries arrived four days ago in water that was very very hard, almost twice as hard as mine. One of them did die within the first 24 hours, and another is still alive and acting normal but has the white line (both females again I think). What do I do? Should I use the tap and add minerals, or just leave them alone? The remineralizer I have is Seachem Equilibrium. Also I should mention, I am doing a week quarantine trio on the tank for good measure since the fish were added recently as well. Anyone who can offer some sage wisdom after this ordeal is soooo appreciated, thank you! Ammonia: 0 Nitrite: 0 Nitrate: 5ppm PH: 7.6 or a little higher GH: 195ppm KH: 110ppm Tank: 10 gallons Planted: yes, medium-ish Tank mates: 5 endlers, 2 nerites Food: I've tried Hikari shrimp cuisine, blanched spinach, bacter AE, algae wafers and frozen brine shrimp but for the most part they've seemed very occupied just eating biofilm and algae which this tank has plenty of. Edited March 20 by Janel R Typo: Seachem Equilibrium not Seachem Stability Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rube_Goldfish Posted March 20 Share Posted March 20 On 3/20/2024 at 4:35 PM, Janel R said: So I bought some of the water from them, and tested it to know for sure what I was getting into, and... it's virtually the same as my tap water. The only sure difference is a small one: GH measures around 180 ppm in the RO, 195 in my tap. PH is at least 7.6, and KH is around 110 ppm. I can't help with the molting problem, and I'm sorry to hear about it. I'm only about a week and a half into keeping Neocaridina shrimp myself, and I don't think they've melted yet in my tank. But the parameters you got testing the store's RO don't make sense. RO is supposed to be very close to pure water. It'll vary RO unit to unit, but even a cheap Amazon filter ought to take out something like 95% of everything. So if your tap water is 400 ppm TDS, you should expect the RO output to be more like 20 ppm total. So either you and the store had some sort of misunderstanding (the charitable scenario) or they have something very wrong with their RO system. (Or your testing kit or testing procedures didn't work for whatever reason. Reagents do expire after a while.) That's a great looking tank, by the way! 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Janel R Posted March 20 Author Share Posted March 20 On 3/20/2024 at 2:07 PM, Rube_Goldfish said: RO is supposed to be very close to pure water. It'll vary RO unit to unit, but even a cheap Amazon filter ought to take out something like 95% of everything. So if your tap water is 400 ppm TDS, you should expect the RO output to be more like 20 ppm total. So either you and the store had some sort of misunderstanding (the charitable scenario) or they have something very wrong with their RO system. (Or your testing kit or testing procedures didn't work for whatever reason. Reagents do expire after a while.) Thank you for the reply! And glad to know I'm not just losing my mind haha😅 I had considered each of these things, and even wondered if they had remineralized the water in store, but that wouldn't make any sense not just because they said I had to remineralize it myself, but also since that wouldn't enable customers to customize their parameters, thus defeating the purpose of RO. As for the tests I have, they are all pretty much brand new, so that eliminates expiration issues. Also I too thought I may have done it wrong initially, but tested again with the same results. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tony s Posted March 20 Share Posted March 20 On 3/20/2024 at 4:35 PM, Janel R said: PH: 7.6 or a little higher GH: 195ppm KH: 110ppm If these are the numbers coming from your tap. I'd forget what the store told you and use your tap. cherry red shrimp (neocaridina) actually like water on the hard side. crystal red shrimp (caradina) like soft water. dgh of 10, dKh of 5, ph of 7.5. this is not hard water, it's more of a medium. perfect water for cherry shrimp. any lower on the gh and you could actually see some molting issues. as they need the calcium in the water for their shells. they could even do with a bit harder water with no problems. and using your tap eliminates the need for remineralization. btw, as an aside, seachem equilibrium is better for planted tanks. it contains no salts. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tony s Posted March 20 Share Posted March 20 On 3/20/2024 at 4:35 PM, Janel R said: simply test their water myself. Lo' and behold... PH: 7.6+, KH: 110 ppm, GH: a whopping 358 ppm! Yeah, that's not RO water. RO water will remove everything. I us ro water due to my high iron content. My dGh comes out 3-4. my dKh is zero. the ph I don't test cause it's not going to stay that way anyway. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Janel R Posted March 20 Author Share Posted March 20 On 3/20/2024 at 3:01 PM, Tony s said: as an aside, seachem equilibrium is better for planted tanks. it contains no salts. Thank you for the info, and for pointing this out also. I just checked and it is Seachem Equilibrium I have, not Stability so that was a typo on my part 🙂 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tony s Posted March 20 Share Posted March 20 @Janel Ryeah, sorry I screwed that up as well. I was thinking the regulator products. neutral, acid, and alkali regulators. which do contain salt. not the stability even, which is just bacteria. I use the equilibrium, but I pair it with the alkalinity and acid buffers to target my ph. and yeah, I'm concerned about what they say is RO. either they haven't checked their filters. or they're selling you a bogus product. but yeah, your neocaridina would like the parameters you were giving. they actually prefer water to the harder side. it's the caridina that prefer softer water. your tap looks excellent for them 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Janel R Posted March 21 Author Share Posted March 21 On 3/20/2024 at 4:51 PM, Tony s said: I'm concerned about what they say is RO. either they haven't checked their filters. or they're selling you a bogus product. but yeah, your neocaridina would like the parameters you were giving. they actually prefer water to the harder side. it's the caridina that prefer softer water. your tap looks excellent for them I'm concerned about the RO as well. I feel like I should try one more time to go back to the store and point that out to someone who will listen. Maybe the guy that was there when I bought the water, he at least is nice, even if he indeed misunderstood which shrimp I was buying water for. As for the shrimp, so do you think the water has anything to do with what's killing them then? It would be easy to up the gh a little with the Equilibrium I have, but if I do that, how many degrees would I be able to safely change at a time? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AllFishNoBrakes Posted March 21 Share Posted March 21 (edited) Agreed that they didn’t sell you RO water. If you’re able to, buy shrimp that were bred locally. I started my cherry shrimp colony with 15 shrimp I bought on Craiglist and have made and sold hundreds of them. They didn’t have to adapt to my water since they were born and raised in my water already. Makes a world of difference. Personally, I wouldn’t continue giving my hard earned dollars to a store that doesn’t listen, sells you something it’s not, and then hangs up on you when you call to inquire about it. Maybe they need to change their filters or have other issues with their RO system. A reputable business should’ve went “oh no, sorry that happened and thanks for letting us know. We’ll check our system and ensure it’s running correctly. Again, thanks for letting us know and we’ll take care of you for the inconvenience”. Instead, they hung up on you. Edited March 21 by AllFishNoBrakes 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tony s Posted March 21 Share Posted March 21 For shrimp I’m not sure how fast they will adjust. They apparently were adjusted to harder water before, if it was in the bag they came in. Maybe for the next ones, match their bag water. Out of curiosity what is the temperature on the tank. Been doing some reading, apparently cherries like it on the colder side anywhere from 60 to 78. Higher temps can cause molting problems. the other thing to think about. Cherries don’t usually adapt to new conditions well, and often die. Hopefully having had babies before that. And it’s the babies that form the new colony. But how get them is the problem. Shrimp can be rather difficult to acclimate to a new tank, I think most people drip acclimate them. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Little Guys Posted March 21 Share Posted March 21 At this point I believe the store is not being straight with you and certainly are not invested in helping you learn about your new hobby. Look around for another store if you can and keeptalking to people who give you straight answers. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AllFishNoBrakes Posted March 21 Share Posted March 21 On 3/20/2024 at 8:57 PM, Tony s said: Out of curiosity what is the temperature on the tank. Been doing some reading, apparently cherries like it on the colder side anywhere from 60 to 78. Higher temps can cause molting problems. Agreed with this. My shrimp tanks are my only tanks that don’t have a heater and sit between 70 & 72. Never had an issue with it. That being said, I have shrimp in like all of my tanks, and they thrive in the 78° tanks, too. But, if it’s just shrimp then I don’t personally run a heater. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Janel R Posted March 21 Author Share Posted March 21 (edited) @AllFishNoBrakes @Tony s Right, forgot to mention the temp, mine is lightly heated, around 75-76 degrees. I’d go no heater but I’m in the LA area and the apartments around here have zero insulation plus no heater here so I’m concerned about the temperature swinging in the tank every day. Also, I drip acclimated these for probably between three or four hours, not sure if that's long enough. Edited March 21 by Janel R 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Janel R Posted March 21 Author Share Posted March 21 (edited) On 3/20/2024 at 8:00 PM, Little Guys said: At this point I believe the store is not being straight with you and certainly are not invested in helping you learn about your new hobby. Look around for another store if you can and keeptalking to people who give you straight answers. On 3/20/2024 at 7:53 PM, AllFishNoBrakes said: Personally, I wouldn’t continue giving my hard earned dollars to a store that doesn’t listen, sells you something it’s not, and then hangs up on you when you call to inquire about it. Thank you for the support! I was certainly disappointed that it happened like this and discouraged that I've already encountered this in a hobby that I love and also have just barely scraped the surface on so far. The encouragement makes a huge difference!💗 If I have time this week I'll go back, try to talk to the first person and let them know what's going on with the water, and if they turn me away similarly to their fellow employee then I'll wash my hands of it, only so much one customer can do. Edited March 21 by Janel R Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AllFishNoBrakes Posted March 21 Share Posted March 21 I guess I’m pretty lucky to have 2 LFS’s within like 30-45 minute drives that are super cool. At the one I work with most, I know a lot of the team by name and they know me. They even hit me up this week to help them out of a jam and I was happy to do it for them. The other one they recognize me, and we chat, but we’re not on a first name basis. Hopefully you have another option nearby! 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cinnebuns Posted March 21 Share Posted March 21 Sounds like a case where the guys working at the LFS have no clue what they are talking about. Both of them. That gh, kh and ph should be fine for neocaridina. Now, I say should. What it honestly comes down to is what they were raised in. If they were raised in much lower gh then they will have molt issues. This is why it's far better to get neocaridina from a breeder in your area than a store or a site. Not only is their water going to be more similar to yours but you can ask them exactly what the shrimp are raised in. And I also advise not listening to that LFS anymore. They just wanted to make a sale and not actually help you. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
doktor zhivago Posted March 21 Share Posted March 21 (edited) I've always just plopped and dropped shrimps but my water is liquid limestone, completely off the charts gh and kh, so I think they don't mind it. The past sets I've got immediately went to eating some pellets as soon as I put them in. No molt issues. You might want to just get some that aren't quite so bred for color. I think the culling really weakens the genetics for them and makes them unable to tolerate changes. Edited March 21 by doktor zhivago 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Janel R Posted March 21 Author Share Posted March 21 On 3/20/2024 at 10:25 PM, AllFishNoBrakes said: I guess I’m pretty lucky to have 2 LFS’s within like 30-45 minute drives that are super cool. At the one I work with most, I know a lot of the team by name and they know me. They even hit me up this week to help them out of a jam and I was happy to do it for them. I would love to have that sort of relationship with my local stores 🙂 There's a couple of the aquarium co-op affiliated shops in my area, but they are all at least 40 minutes away. Definitely want to check them out though! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Janel R Posted March 21 Author Share Posted March 21 On 3/21/2024 at 12:45 AM, Cinnebuns said: Sounds like a case where the guys working at the LFS have no clue what they are talking about. Both of them. That gh, kh and ph should be fine for neocaridina. Now, I say should. What it honestly comes down to is what they were raised in. If they were raised in much lower gh then they will have molt issues. This is why it's far better to get neocaridina from a breeder in your area than a store or a site. Not only is their water going to be more similar to yours but you can ask them exactly what the shrimp are raised in. Yes, I'll be trying that next if my current stock dies off again. For now I'll probably just let them be and hope I have some females that survive to be berried over the next couple months. I'm traveling internationally soon too so that should help me sit on my hands long enough to wait it out lol. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AllFishNoBrakes Posted March 21 Share Posted March 21 On 3/21/2024 at 3:41 PM, Janel R said: I would love to have that sort of relationship with my local stores 🙂 For sure. Keep in mind I’ve been nurturing those relationships the last 4 years. Definitely didn’t happen overnight! 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Little Guys Posted March 22 Share Posted March 22 On 3/21/2024 at 1:28 AM, doktor zhivago said: You might want to just get some that aren't quite so bred for color. I think the culling really weakens the genetics for them and makes them unable to tolerate changes. I breeders have been breeding for color for quite a while, I assume that their shrimp might be inbred. That can't be good. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt B Posted March 22 Share Posted March 22 Lots of minerals 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Janel R Posted March 23 Author Share Posted March 23 @Matt B Thank you! I've heard Cory mention Wonder Shell. I've heard they can disintegrate too quickly though, ever had that problem? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Matt B Posted March 23 Share Posted March 23 @Janel R Disolve into the water to quickly? How would that be a problem? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cinnebuns Posted March 23 Share Posted March 23 (edited) On 3/23/2024 at 3:27 AM, Matt B said: @Janel R Disolve into the water to quickly? How would that be a problem? Too much calcium in the water is an issue for shrimp. They can't molt with too much. Wonder shells are great for snails but not for shrimp unless you need a huge bump in calcium. OP's GH is fine for shrimp and shouldn't need more calcium. Edited March 23 by Cinnebuns 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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