My Troubles With Amano Shrimp

[RichNJ]

I have trouble keeping Amano shrimp alive for more than a day or two.  I’ve tried different things in different tanks.  My latest attempt was in my 20L panted livebearer tank (guppies and plates).  It has C02, 7.5ph, 80kh, 0 ammonia, O nitrite, 30-40 nitrate, 15dh, with Fritz aquarium salt of 2 teaspoons per 5 gallons (a touch for the livebearers).  The fish are thriving and breeding.  Without CO2 my ph is high 8-8.2.  Previously in this same tank I killed Amanos before C02 with the higher 8-8.2 ph and higher nitrates.  Since CO2 I got the ph down and nitrates under control with better than plant growth.  We have very hard water and very high ph and kh iut of our tap.  We have a water softener so I remineralize with equilibrium.  Don’t want to deal with a bypass and I am led to believe that the added salt via the water softener is negligible. 

More history - Once before, I even quarantined 20 Amanos for a month to grow them out in a 5g with no nitrates and the higher 8.0 ph since no CO2 in that tank.  They did well on their own, but once I distributed into my display tanks…dead in 1 or 2 days.  I don’t have aggressive fish, just community.  And they aren’t getting eaten but just dead on the substrate with snails working at the crustacean carnage.

What comes to mind is also another ironic experience when I was starting out.  Years ago I bought two full grown Amanos that lasted two and a half years.  That was all when my parameters were all over the place and I was just starting out and killing fish left and right.  Now I am better with the fish, but I kill shrimp.  

Anyway, I am probably giving up on Amanos, however I would really like to have their clean up crew benefits, especially for the hair algae.  I’d avoid flag fish since they are too destructive in my experience and style, and so I now have banished them to their own tank.  Another option maybe is another type of shrimp (cherry?), but I suppose they might get eaten since smaller and are less known for hair algae control.  

In the meantime, any Amano advice to keep them from falling apart in my tanks?  Anyone else with similar bad luck?

 

[Chad]

Amanos have been great for me. They're very hardy as far as I can tell. There are several things about your tank I can't speak to but one thing I can, the nitrates. I have yet to see nitrates bother these amanos. I've had nitrates get to 50-60ppm (maybe higher) with no troubles whatsoever. 

I do not have CO2, a water softener, and I don't salt my tank. I've never heard of CO2 being an issue for them but I can't say for sure. As for the other two, the water softener and salting of the tank, I hope better minds chime in here and share their thoughts. To me, it's something specific to your tank. Them dying in a day or two is the tell, as is the previous history of keeping them fine in another tank.

Personally, I wouldn't salt the tank, but that's just me. I keep guppies too with similar water parameters and they have no problems and no salt. I've never had temps above 80, and have had temps as low as at 68. Good luck!

[RichNJ]

I do wonder if they just get bullied by fish and scared right out of the gate…yet others introduce small ones in with fish.  I have places to hide.  Have a chain sword everywhere pushing a few inches so they can hide under there.  

[MattyM]

Such a sudden death makes me wonder if it could be an acclimation problem? Like are you drip acclimating? I think amano shrimp are the hardiest of shrimps, so I'm not sure moving to another kind would help at all. 

[RichNJ]

On 3/12/2024 at 12:14 PM, MattyM said:

Such a sudden death makes me wonder if it could be an acclimation problem? Like are you drip acclimating? I think amano shrimp are the hardiest of shrimps, so I'm not sure moving to another kind would help at all. 

Oh, I should have commented on that too.  In this particular case, I bag floated for 15 minutes for temp and then dripped acclimated in a specimen container for 90 minutes, pouring some water out occasionally to help further dilution and prevent overflow.  I then floated my specimen container in the tank to ensure temps were ok.

@MattyM

 

Edited March 12 by RichNJ

[Supermassive]

Amanos have been easier for me than cherry shrimp. I'm 3 for 3 with amanos but I had like 30% losses in two weeks on my cherries.

Have you put any plants from outside or anything else in the tanks? I've heard shrimp can be extremely sensitive to pesticides and chemicals that could be on plants and whatnot. Like parts per billion can cause death not parts per million.

If you've had success with them before in other tanks I would think about anything different in the tanks that could be leaching something into the water.

Are you using a water conditioner that's made for shrimp and fish?

[RichNJ]

On 3/12/2024 at 1:40 PM, Supermassive said:

Amanos have been easier for me than cherry shrimp. I'm 3 for 3 with amanos but I had like 30% losses in two weeks on my cherries.

Have you put any plants from outside or anything else in the tanks? I've heard shrimp can be extremely sensitive to pesticides and chemicals that could be on plants and whatnot. Like parts per billion can cause death not parts per million.

If you've had success with them before in other tanks I would think about anything different in the tanks that could be leaching something into the water.

Are you using a water conditioner that's made for shrimp and fish?

Thanks…I use Prime every time I do a water change.  The plants I have are from the Coop and my LFS.  I use Easy Green and Root Tabs.  
my water softener also has carbon in it, so my water does get cleaned up quite a bit.

 

as for once being successful…that one time were two adult shrimp at purchase time that eventually died of old age.  But I knew much less than I do now and pretty much only floated them the dumped them in.  So I guess lucky then.  My only thoughts now are to return to the store I originally bought those bigger ones from to see if they have adults.  Most stores today only sell small juveniles, so am wondering if maybe the fish pick on the little ones and stress them to death.

@Supermassive

 

Edited March 13 by RichNJ

[Supermassive]

How much calcium are you adding back with the equilibrium?

[RichNJ]

On 3/12/2024 at 2:18 PM, Supermassive said:

How much calcium are you adding back with the equilibrium?

In this tank I add three teaspoons Equilibrium per 5 gallon bucket and 2 teaspoons of Fritz salt per 5 gallon bucket.  This gets me to around 15 or 16dh…since my starting water is zero hardness given I have a water softener. 

[Supermassive]

Do you know your tap water parameters before it goes through the water softener or before you got it?

[RichNJ]

On 3/12/2024 at 2:48 PM, Supermassive said:

Do you know your tap water parameters before it goes through the water softener or before you got it?

Yes super hard…like 22gh….its about 7.5ph but gases off back to 8.  There’s little to no chorline from what I can tell and no ammonia/nitrites/nitrates.  KH is 80 or so..sometimes other.  
 

My ph is very stable in my tanks at 8 and almost never changes probably because of the high KH.  For this tank where the Amanos were just wiped out…I have CO2, so it gets the ph down to 7.5.  I run about 2 bubbles per second. 

[Supermassive]

I don't know much about water softeners but from what I've read they replace the minerals with salt and the more minerals you have in your water the more salt it will need to add. If you have really hard water it might be adding more salt than you think and I don't think it would be aquarium safe salt.

[tike]

My thoughts......most shrimp can't tolerate iron in the water. Typically, iron is a product found in various plant fertilizers. Make sure the ferts that you are using are free of iron. 

[RichNJ]

On 3/12/2024 at 3:37 PM, Supermassive said:

I don't know much about water softeners but from what I've read they replace the minerals with salt and the more minerals you have in your water the more salt it will need to add. If you have really hard water it might be adding more salt than you think and I don't think it would be aquarium safe salt.

I’ve heard mix bags on water softener treated water into aquarium.  I’m not convinced either way, but I do remineralize so I can control for hardness.  Less hard for my tetra tank and much harder for my liver water tank (the one with the shrimp issue).

that said, not sure what is too much salt for Amanos so maybe an eventually test is to water change out this tank over time and add no additional salt.  @Supermassive

 

On 3/12/2024 at 4:53 PM, tike said:

My thoughts......most shrimp can't tolerate iron in the water. Typically, iron is a product found in various plant fertilizers. Make sure the ferts that you are using are free of iron. 

interesting…I do use Easy Iron for my redfish plants.  Also use Easy Green too.  

@tike

Edited March 12 by RichNJ

[Galabar]

If you are using a water softener, you aren't removing things, but rather replacing things with salt.  So, you could have water that is somewhat out of wack (high in salts).  I would suggest bypassing the softener and working with that water.

 

[Jonny]

This is so interesting as I’m dealing with almost exactly the same thing…killing my aminos and other shrimp all the time. We’ve discussed this on a different thread (also in this website).
I’m trying out the bypass softener idea now and no salt. I’ve talked to a guy that owns a lot of aquariums and 100’s of shrimp and he said that the shrimp don’t tolerate salt. 🤷🏽 he recommended RO water but other people on here have claimed their success with Well water. I’m going to try it and see if my one shrimp lives and if yes I’ll slowly add more again. 

[RichNJ]

On 3/12/2024 at 10:49 PM, Jonny said:

This is so interesting as I’m dealing with almost exactly the same thing…killing my aminos and other shrimp all the time. We’ve discussed this on a different thread (also in this website).
I’m trying out the bypass softener idea now and no salt. I’ve talked to a guy that owns a lot of aquariums and 100’s of shrimp and he said that the shrimp don’t tolerate salt. 🤷🏽 he recommended RO water but other people on here have claimed their success with Well water. I’m going to try it and see if my one shrimp lives and if yes I’ll slowly add more again. 

@Jonny  curious to know how your bypass experiment is going and how long you've been doing tap only and no salt, and how the shrimp are doing.

First on salt - Amanos breed in brackish water I believe and some folks say that they should tolerate it.  Cherries and others I think are more sensitive to it.  But still maybe the salt from the softener plus the aquarium salt I used for the livebearers is just way too much then.  Although one interesting point...when I once tried Amano shrimp in quarantine first...I bought 20 via Flips and made it on the briney side, honestly thinking it was ok for Amanos.  They were in the QT tank for 1M+ with no deaths, and only died once i distributed into my display tanks.  The hardwater 20L liverbearer tank with added salt and my other tank with no added salt.  I actually started a post here about that approach.  https://forum.aquariumcoop.com/topic/34287-aquarium-salt-and-amano-shrimp/  

On the water softener - bypassing is a pain because of the temp.  When bypassing I'd have to use cold water only, since the hot water from the water heater already passed through the softener, so has the incremental salt.   I live in NJ so the water will come out at like 50 degrees or less in the winter.  I guess I could set up a bucket with bypassed water and let it get to room temp at least in the 60s or so, or drop in a little heater for a few hours.  Seems like a lot of time though.  

For my 55g tetra and angel tank, I think my tap would be too hard since it's at 22dh+.  Plus that tank is bigger, so water changing 3-4 Home Depot 5g buckets through super cold water via the softener bypass is even more difficult to heat up during the winter.  I'd have buckets all over the place or one large garbage can (not good for the family...and I am pushing the hobby to the limit with them as it is).  For this tank, I only add additional Fritz salt occasionally for disease management prevention. 

Taken all together...it's hard to find the variable that is causing them to fall apart.  My only thoughts now are that they get stressed with activity in the tank from fish.  But why just me?

 

Edited March 13 by RichNJ

[nabokovfan87]

On 3/12/2024 at 4:47 AM, RichNJ said:

The fish are thriving and breeding.  Without CO2 my ph is high 8-8.2.  Previously in this same tank I killed Amanos before C02 with the higher 8-8.2 ph and higher nitrates.  

I will read the thread when I get a moment, but it is very, very likely that you cannot keep amano at this pH.  Mine turned red, molted, and I lost a few.

Max is about 7.6 for the ones that I have.

This is purely tied to KH, as they can tolerate very, very high GH parameters.

Edit:

With your KH being only 80, I would ask to verify this with a liquid kit or take it in to have a shop to run it through a secondary test to verify the results.

80 isn't very high for KH to get you up into the 8.0+ range. I see mentions of a water softener, but I'll take a deep dive into the thread when I get a moment.

Using CO2 to drop the pH isn't reliable long term and I would opt for something like RODI or seachem acid buffer.

Edited March 13 by nabokovfan87

[RichNJ]

On 3/13/2024 at 4:02 PM, nabokovfan87 said:

I will read the thread when I get a moment, but it is very, very likely that you cannot keep amano at this pH.  Mine turned red, molted, and I lost a few.

Max is about 7.6 for the ones that I have.

This is purely tied to KH, as they can tolerate very, very high GH parameters.

Edit:

With your KH being only 80, I would ask to verify this with a liquid kit or take it in to have a shop to run it through a secondary test to verify the results.

80 isn't very high for KH to get you up into the 8.0+ range. I see mentions of a water softener, but I'll take a deep dive into the thread when I get a moment.

Using CO2 to drop the pH isn't reliable long term and I would opt for something like RODI or seachem acid buffer.

thanks, okay...it's 80 KH using test strips, but it's hard to tell with those shades of green.  Anyway, I can test KH with the API drops and report back to you.  For this tank with CO2, I am roughly 7.5 PH....in my non-CO2 tanks I am usually 8ph and sometimes 8.2 in my other tanks.  Since I finally got he PH lower via CO2, i thought I'd try Amanos again and they died immediately.

By the way, I once had Amanos before in a quarantine tank with no Co2, and they did well for 1M...then I moved to other tanks and they fell apart right away.

Trying to solve this puzzle!  So thanks ahead of time for your insight.

[nabokovfan87]

On 3/13/2024 at 1:12 PM, RichNJ said:

By the way, I once had Amanos before in a quarantine tank with no Co2, and they did well for 1M...then I moved to other tanks and they fell apart right away.

Trying to solve this puzzle!  So thanks ahead of time for your insight.

I've had some of mine going on ~10 years. KH is actually higher than 80 for most of their life, but the pH is way, way lower. 6.8-7.2 range. It's sort of weird what you're experiencing.

Hopefully we can figure it out!

They are some of my favorite things I've ever kept in the hobby.

[RichNJ]

On 3/13/2024 at 7:03 PM, nabokovfan87 said:

I've had some of mine going on ~10 years. KH is actually higher than 80 for most of their life, but the pH is way, way lower. 6.8-7.2 range. It's sort of weird what you're experiencing.

Hopefully we can figure it out!

They are some of my favorite things I've ever kept in the hobby.

@nabokovfan87

10yrs old!?!?!

so I reran some API drop tests, and had a hunch my KH was higher.  The green on the Coop test strips are hard to read for me.  Results here:

13 gh x 17.9 = 233ppm

17 kh X 17.9 = 304ppm

Ammonia zero

Nitrite 0

Nitrate 30 (nitrate picture below…looks like 30 to me!)

So usually I am 8ph in my tanks, but with CO2 it drops to 7.5 for this tank.  My untreated water before the water softener is very hard and alkaline with high KH…all connected and common here with our public utility ground water.
 

Three other variables I am trying to rule out or confirm as the culprit:

1) salt impact - we have water softener, which we know adds salt.  But it is supposedly negligible.  My tap is usually 22gh and then zero after the water softener.  I then remineralize for this tank back to 13-15gh.  It can vary a bit each time I do a water change.  Also, in this 20L tank it is for livebearers so I add Fritz salt at two teaspoons per 5g Home Depot bucket…so not a lot of salt.  The plants are fine from the salt.  However, is this too much salt for Amanos??  I want to say I doubt it.  I also once had 20 Amanos in a QT for 1 month at 8ph with salt and no nitrates.  Once I moved them to various tanks they all died.  Some instantly..others in a weeks. 

2) I add Easy Iron for my red plants.  Supposed to be shrimp save but I have no idea what my tap iron level is.

3) stocking levels.  While guppies and platies are peaceful….are they ganging up on the Amanos or too active and stressful for them?  Tank picture below.  Sorry if anything is upside down.   Nitrates are under control…but too much activity?  I have a lot of dwarf chain sword m, so plenty of hideouts.  There is one very very young and small flag fish and another that was never a strong fry and kind of just sits around.  I’ll be moving these soon.  They are both maybe 0.25 inches.

[nabokovfan87]

On 3/13/2024 at 6:36 PM, RichNJ said:

Three other variables I am trying to rule out or confirm as the culprit:

1) salt impact - we have water softener, which we know adds salt.  But it is supposedly negligible.  My tap is usually 22gh and then zero after the water softener.  I then remineralize for this tank back to 13-15gh.  It can vary a bit each time I do a water change.  Also, in this 20L tank it is for livebearers so I add Fritz salt at two teaspoons per 5g Home Depot bucket…so not a lot of salt.  The plants are fine from the salt.  However, is this too much salt for Amanos??  I want to say I doubt it.  I also once had 20 Amanos in a QT for 1 month at 8ph with salt and no nitrates.  Once I moved them to various tanks they all died.  Some instantly..others in a weeks. 

2) I add Easy Iron for my red plants.  Supposed to be shrimp save but I have no idea what my tap iron level is.

3) stocking levels.  While guppies and platies are peaceful….are they ganging up on the Amanos or too active and stressful for them?  Tank picture below.  Sorry if anything is upside down.   Nitrates are under control…but too much activity?  I have a lot of dwarf chain sword m, so plenty of hideouts.  There is one very very young and small flag fish and another that was never a strong fry and kind of just sits around.  I’ll be moving these soon.  They are both maybe 0.25 inches.

The salt is definitely causing some form of an issue and legitimately using tap water (unsoftened) might increase your success, even if the KH is higher.

I would try to get a line to bypass the softener.  There is a lot of smarter people than myself that could break down the chemistry of what is going on, but the big picture here is that the water itself is pretty unstable.  This means things are unstable and that leads to issues with the amanos reacting to stress.  Immediate deaths like you're experiencing are almost always going to be a sign of water issues or a contaminant.  Something like copper is what is often pointed to, but any excess heavy metals could be a major issue for shrimp.

2 - I use iron in my tanks, it's not going to cause any issues.

3 - nitrate levels that high is absolutely a risk.  Let's dive into maintenance schedules, water volume that is being changes, filtration that you're using and how it's setup.  You have plants in the tank, but you don't have a massive plant load.  Hopefully that makes sense.

Edited March 14 by nabokovfan87

[RichNJ]

On 3/14/2024 at 1:50 AM, nabokovfan87 said:

The salt is definitely causing some form of an issue and legitimately using tap water (unsoftened) might increase your success, even if the KH is higher.

I would try to get a line to bypass the softener.  There is a lot of smarter people than myself that could break down the chemistry of what is going on, but the big picture here is that the water itself is pretty unstable.  This means things are unstable and that leads to issues with the amanos reacting to stress.  Immediate deaths like you're experiencing are almost always going to be a sign of water issues or a contaminant.  Something like copper is what is often pointed to, but any excess heavy metals could be a major issue for shrimp.

2 - I use iron in my tanks, it's not going to cause any issues.

3 - nitrate levels that high is absolutely a risk.  Let's dive into maintenance schedules, water volume that is being changes, filtration that you're using and how it's setup.  You have plants in the tank, but you don't have a massive plant load.  Hopefully that makes sense.

This is a 2yr old 20L tank.  I seem to remember three 5g buckets when I first filled it up, so 15g of water.  I water change 5g every other week, so 1/3rd of the water.  I have a Coop sponge filter and just added the new lift tube (it's pretty cool).  Temp is mid 70s.  Hair algae got a little crazy and I've wanted to stimulate better plant growth, so added CO2 about four months ago.  I'd say the last 6 weeks plants are taking off even more and algae looking better, but still it's still there (hence my Amano attempt).  Also evidence of better plant performance is generally lower nitrates now...they used to be much higher and now are in the 30-40 range.

So a few variables I think maybe we can work with, which I want to prioritize or eliminate:

1) Bypass the water softener and water change the old softened water out over time?  I'd have to think about temp here since my tap is cold.  I could prep a bucket at night and let it sit to room temp into the 60s.

2) Stop adding salt altogether (whether I bypass the softener or not).  I only add 2 teaspoons of Fritz per 5g bucket during my water change schedule.

3) Stop the iron? I think not a factor one way or the other

4) increase water change frequency to get nitrates down more.  I feel that Amanos should be able to handle 30-40 though.  The fish are fine and are flying around, and breeding.  I actually removed my floating Anacharis plant since they gave too many hiding spots for guppy fry to survive.  I'd rather the population stop here, and I want to shift to platies mostly (a favorite) and let the guppies age out.  I removed some guppies and put in my bigger 55g tank (that tank is another story and eventual project to improve).  First up is my 20L here...easier to toy with since smaller.

@nabokovfan87

 

[Supermassive]

On 3/13/2024 at 9:36 PM, RichNJ said:

Nitrate 30 (nitrate picture below…looks like 30 to me!)

That looks pretty red to me. I normally expect 30ppm to be a bit more orange, but the camera can make it really to get an accurate color. Once it gets to 40ppm its pretty much impossible for me to tell where it actually is. From 40 to 160ppm the color looks very similar to me. I think it could be a lot higher than you think. If you add 50% tap water to the test, so 2.5ml tap water and 2.5ml tank water, it will get you a more accurate result. Just multiply the result by two to get the actual reading. You can also do 1.25ml tank water and the rest tap if you are able to measure 1.25mls and multiply by 4 for an even more accurate result.

 

On 3/13/2024 at 9:36 PM, RichNJ said:

I also once had 20 Amanos in a QT for 1 month at 8ph with salt and no nitrates.

Were you using the water softener at that point?

 

[RichNJ]

On 3/14/2024 at 10:21 AM, Supermassive said:

That looks pretty red to me. I normally expect 30ppm to be a bit more orange, but the camera can make it really to get an accurate color. Once it gets to 40ppm its pretty much impossible for me to tell where it actually is. From 40 to 160ppm the color looks very similar to me. I think it could be a lot higher than you think. If you add 50% tap water to the test, so 2.5ml tap water and 2.5ml tank water, it will get you a more accurate result. Just multiply the result by two to get the actual reading. You can also do 1.25ml tank water and the rest tap if you are able to measure 1.25mls and multiply by 4 for an even more accurate result.

I agree with you on the 40-160 colors looking the same.  I might try the 50/50 test to confirm.  Makes sense.

On 3/14/2024 at 10:21 AM, Supermassive said:

  On 3/13/2024 at 9:36 PM, RichNJ said:

I also once had 20 Amanos in a QT for 1 month at 8ph with salt and no nitrates.

 

Were you using the water softener at that point?

 

Yes, for that QT tank I used my standard water softener water.  I then made the tank hard at around 15dh and then added Fritz salt too.  I tried to match the water conditions of the 20L livebearer tank that I've been talking about.  For this 1 month, nitrates were nearly zero.  Once I moved the Amanos into my other tanks, they all died.  Nearly instantly in the 20L, but my nitrates were truly high (and "RED" in those days).  Nitrates better now.

So maybe nitrates potentially is a factor more than the water softener (since the shrimp once survived in water softener treated water parameters?!?!?

@Supermassive @nabokovfan87