Filtration help needed

[MidnightBel]

I have pretty basic knowledge about messing with filtration order to work better, but this applies to cannister filters.

I'm so lost on what to do with sponge like filter that doesn't even go all the way down. I got this for the added help of adding some mechanical filtration to my tanks to add to my current spong filters. Where would I place an ammoia filter media in this (not cloth type), where would I put carbon and what is the best order. I feel so lost. I'm not even sure which way it flows to be honest in regards to intake. I know the bottom half doesn't have a hole for airstone at least. Except for the very bottom layer. Any changes in order, media etc very much welcome.

 

Thank you ahead of time for any help provided. Sending images of the filter and current order of it.

[sapphireminds]

Why do you need the mechanical/ammonia/carbon filtration? 

Edited February 15 by sapphireminds

[Lonkley]

I do water flow through sponge, polishing fiber, bio media, chemical (carbon, purigen, whatever) 

 

 

[MidnightBel]

On 2/15/2024 at 2:22 AM, sapphireminds said:

Why do you need the mechanical/ammonia/carbon filtration? 

More so for peace of mind. I deal with very high ammonia levels in my tap from chloramines. It is minimum 0.25, but up to 1 when they do treatments without telling us. Carbon is good for that as well, but also for removing medicine from the water if I have any. I personally prefer full filtration to sponge, but for certain fish species like bettas, lower flow is better. 

On 2/15/2024 at 2:26 AM, Lonkley said:

I do water flow through sponge, polishing fiber, bio media, chemical (carbon, purigen, whatever) 

 

 

Would you say they have it set up correctly in order then? Or is it flipped backwards? I can't tell where it comes from to be honest since even the bottom has holes where the rock media is. 

 

Also any suggestions on any changes like the floss or the filter sponges?

[MidnightBel]

For now I put it like this. Would prefer adding carbon in here as well. Added a lot more area for biological filtration and doubled the amount of biomax in each tier, and less sponge on the bottom tier. 

[Pepere]

Your filter has holes in the top and bottom?

 

hard to tell the water flow with all the media in the way.  Do you have an airstone in the riser tube?  Or does it just bubble up?   
 

basically the water flows up out of the riser tube.  At the base of the riser tube the water flows in to it.  Where is the base of the riser tube? Is it at the bottom of the filter, the middle or the top?

 

On my Lee’s triple flow filters the air tube riser is attached to a perforated base plate that sits at the bottom of my filter.  I place about 3/4 of an inch of gravel on top of that plate to weigh down the filter and provide surface area for bacteria.  I then use nylon pot scrubbies on top and use a bit of polyfill on top.  With the Lee’s, the water enters on 3 corners flowing up and then down through the polyfill, down through the pot scrubbers pass the gravel and then up the riser tube.

 

When I want to pull meds out of the tank, I place a bit of activated carbon in a mesh bag that I put where the scrubbies normally reside, and simply float the scrubbies in the tank to preserve the bacteria colony.

My tap water chronically has 1 ppm ammonia in it.  When I do a 50% water change my tank gets up to 0.5 ppm ammonia.  If I do a water change in the morning, the ammonia level in the tank is not perceivable with API liquid test kit by evening.  The beneficial bacteria gobble it all up by then…I do not use any ammonia absorbing pads or materials.  My PH varies between 7.2 and 6.0 depending on co2 injection, so an ammonia level of 1 ppm causes me no concern at all so long as it is not rising.  

[MidnightBel]

On 2/15/2024 at 4:58 AM, Pepere said:

Your filter has holes in the top and bottom?

 

hard to tell the water flow with all the media in the way.  Do you have an airstone in the riser tube?  Or does it just bubble up?   
 

basically the water flows up out of the riser tube.  At the base of the riser tube the water flows in to it.  Where is the base of the riser tube? Is it at the bottom of the filter, the middle or the top?

 

On my Lee’s triple flow filters the air tube riser is attached to a perforated base plate that sits at the bottom of my filter.  I place about 3/4 of an inch of gravel on top of that plate to weigh down the filter and provide surface area for bacteria.  I then use nylon pot scrubbies on top and use a bit of polyfill on top.  With the Lee’s, the water enters on 3 corners flowing up and then down through the polyfill, down through the pot scrubbers pass the gravel and then up the riser tube.

 

When I want to pull meds out of the tank, I place a bit of activated carbon in a mesh bag that I put where the scrubbies normally reside, and simply float the scrubbies in the tank to preserve the bacteria colony.

My tap water chronically has 1 ppm ammonia in it.  When I do a 50% water change my tank gets up to 0.5 ppm ammonia.  If I do a water change in the morning, the ammonia level in the tank is not perceivable with API liquid test kit by evening.  The beneficial bacteria gobble it all up by then…I do not use any ammonia absorbing pads or materials.  My PH varies between 7.2 and 6.0 depending on co2 injection, so an ammonia level of 1 ppm causes me no concern at all so long as it is not rising.  

So I have several filtered tanks, but am starting cycles from scratch due to worrying that something might be in my turtle or planted tank that made my previous fish get dropsy. Instead of destroying that tank, it is just existing at the moment. I did have a cycle filter for my betta which crashed during meds so I'm guessing it was too new for meds and didn't have a large enough colony. Betta is going through a fish in cycle sort of now that meds are done, but really just constant water changes whenever it reaches above 0.25 ammonia. I have a giant seperate tub cycling several sponge filters, and two of these new filters going in now as well. There are also tons of fake plants, decor pieces, and rocks in there. I have been cycling for about 3 weeks now, and after dosing up to 7 ammonia (followed instructions of 4 drops per gallon so idk how this happened), and Dr Tims one and only and it has been a 6 days now. It has been stalled at 4 ammonia for 3 days, 0 nitrites every day since day 1, and nitrates are up to 4-5. I can't tell where it is at in the cycle. 

 

 

The ammonia remover media I purchased is for the betta tank to help remove the stress of ammonia in my water. I do changes with bottled spring water, but the pH is a lot different than mine so I only do 4 gallons of this with another 4 gallons of my tap. This lasts me easily 3 to 6 days without needing a change again. (Originally it was getting to 0.5 daily with my tap and occasionally 1). I personally want the ammonia remover for future medication quarantine periods just in case it happens in the future, or to just ignore the seeded filter and just have airstone at least and the sponge since this is the second time med trio has crashed my cycle. I'm guessing it is because the ammonia output wasn't as much as a fish load since it was fishless cycles without proper ammoia dose (decaying plant matter and fish food) combined with meds weakening the bacteria colony. Since then I purchased I think fritz ammoia bottle to hopefully not have this issue again. 

 

As for where the bubbler is, it is in center of the filter. It doesn't go all the way down. I tried modifying to make it, but couldn't without breaking the plastic. It has intake holes all through the bottom and center and even top. I took pics of the exact order from top to bottom in the images posted originally. The 2nd tier doesn't have the hole in the center except for bottom layer, even though the tube and airstone can't go down there due to mid section plastic design. 

[Pepere]

Yep, where cycle is not well established I have used ammonia absorbers as well.  

If your air rise tube opens to the middle, your water comes in from both ends of the filter box and flows to the middle.

general rule of thumb on filtration is coarser prefilter at start of flow, then finer for mechanical followed by bio then chemical.

I personally dont think ceramic media functions anywhere near what the theoretical surface area calculations would lead one to believe. I suspect the functional surface area is far less as water is not flowing through the media itself once biofilm forms on the outer surface.  This is why I use nylon pot scrubbers instead of ceramic medias.

 

Where you are working to establish several sponge filters in a tub, presumably without fish in it, if I were doing it this way, I would fill the box filter with zeolite media to absorb ammonia and polyill or sponges on the ends for mechanical filtration and use this in the tank with the betta to keep ammonia at bay and replace zeolite as needed…

On the tub I was establishing sponge filters in, assuming no fish or livestock in the tank, I would make sure there is plenty of surface agitation for oxygen exchange which with multi sponge filters is likely a given.  I would add baking soda to a ph of 8 to allow beneficial bacteria to multiply faster and raise the tub temp to 80. BeneficiL bacteria establish quickest with elevated ph, temps and oxygenation.

My personal experience with the various bacteria in a bottle treatments is that they profited the retailers and makers much more than they ever gave me a benefit.  I can not see any circumstance where I personally would be exchanging any money for another bottle.  If you have house plants where the soil is not allowed to dry out, and can spare a half cup of that, stirring it in to your tub would be in my opinion far more efficacious.   I understand other people hold other opinions and I hold no desire to argue with them, but neither does that change mine…. Take it for what you will…

[Guppysnail]

The flow goes from bottom to top if there are holes on the bottom.  If there are only holes on the top which I’ve seen it’s incredibly inefficient and only the upper media ever got dirty for me. 
 

Try cutting back to 2 ppm of ammonia.  At 4 the cycle start process usually stalls out. 

[MidnightBel]

On 2/15/2024 at 7:35 AM, Pepere said:

Yep, where cycle is not well established I have used ammonia absorbers as well.  

If your air rise tube opens to the middle, your water comes in from both ends of the filter box and flows to the middle.

general rule of thumb on filtration is coarser prefilter at start of flow, then finer for mechanical followed by bio then chemical.

I personally dont think ceramic media functions anywhere near what the theoretical surface area calculations would lead one to believe. I suspect the functional surface area is far less as water is not flowing through the media itself once biofilm forms on the outer surface.  This is why I use nylon pot scrubbers instead of ceramic medias.

 

Where you are working to establish several sponge filters in a tub, presumably without fish in it, if I were doing it this way, I would fill the box filter with zeolite media to absorb ammonia and polyill or sponges on the ends for mechanical filtration and use this in the tank with the betta to keep ammonia at bay and replace zeolite as needed…

On the tub I was establishing sponge filters in, assuming no fish or livestock in the tank, I would make sure there is plenty of surface agitation for oxygen exchange which with multi sponge filters is likely a given.  I would add baking soda to a ph of 8 to allow beneficial bacteria to multiply faster and raise the tub temp to 80. BeneficiL bacteria establish quickest with elevated ph, temps and oxygenation.

My personal experience with the various bacteria in a bottle treatments is that they profited the retailers and makers much more than they ever gave me a benefit.  I can not see any circumstance where I personally would be exchanging any money for another bottle.  If you have house plants where the soil is not allowed to dry out, and can spare a half cup of that, stirring it in to your tub would be in my opinion far more efficacious.   I understand other people hold other opinions and I hold no desire to argue with them, but neither does that change mine…. Take it for what you will…

Yea the only bacteria bottle one I saw a change with quickly was the Dr Tims One and Only. I've tried several bacteria in bottles before as well. Yes the tub in recent picture is without any fish or livestock. We have low pH, so I added crushed coral bringing it up to 7.5. I have temps at 82° F. Sponge filters are turned up, but I can probably turn it up a bit more which I'll do when I get home. Wouldn't I not want to add ammonia removers to this? I would think adding them to the empty filter/decor tub that I'm trying to cycle would ruin or stall the cycle. It has been stuck at 4ppm for about 4 days now, and still 0 nitrites and somehow 4 to 5 nitrates which weren't there originally. The first 2 days after adding ammonia drops if 4 per gallon and Dr tims one and only it went from 7ppm ammonia down slowly to eventually the 4ppm by 3rd day. The nitrates showed up by the 24 hour mark at around 2ppm, then by day 4 it was 4-5ppm. It hasn't increased since then and I never saw nitrites. 

 

Should I be using zeolite and polyfill media in the betta tank? Right now I only have an aquarium co op filter and airstone running in there. I did purchase Aqua Clear Ammonia Remover that got here several days ago. Would putting this in a media bag in the center inside of the spone filter help any? Or should I be using the new filter set up I got? pH is 6.6 with ammoia at 0.25-0.3ppm. Temps were lowered from 80 to 78.5°-79° to help decrease impact of ammonia on him. It is a 10 gallon and is a lot more brown from leaves than it was in this picture. Around 8 to 10 giant leaves (I can't remember right now because the ones I got in were like 9 inches so I think I put less than one per gallon). 

 

Thank You all for the help  

On 2/15/2024 at 8:08 AM, Guppysnail said:

The flow goes from bottom to top if there are holes on the bottom.  If there are only holes on the top which I’ve seen it’s incredibly inefficient and only the upper media ever got dirty for me. 
 

Try cutting back to 2 ppm of ammonia.  At 4 the cycle start process usually stalls out. 

Would adding more dechlorinated water help this to dilute it a bit further? It was originally at 7ppm and went down to 4ppm but stalled there. Nitrates rose up to 4-5ppm at that time, but nitrites any nitrites. I was doing the sit and wait method for it to go down, but on day 4 since the last time it went down, I'm getting impatient. 

[Guppysnail]

On 2/15/2024 at 4:07 PM, MidnightBel said:

Yea the only bacteria bottle one I saw a change with quickly was the Dr Tims One and Only. I've tried several bacteria in bottles before as well. Yes the tub in recent picture is without any fish or livestock. We have low pH, so I added crushed coral bringing it up to 7.5. I have temps at 82° F. Sponge filters are turned up, but I can probably turn it up a bit more which I'll do when I get home. Wouldn't I not want to add ammonia removers to this? I would think adding them to the empty filter/decor tub that I'm trying to cycle would ruin or stall the cycle. It has been stuck at 4ppm for about 4 days now, and still 0 nitrites and somehow 4 to 5 nitrates which weren't there originally. The first 2 days after adding ammonia drops if 4 per gallon and Dr tims one and only it went from 7ppm ammonia down slowly to eventually the 4ppm by 3rd day. The nitrates showed up by the 24 hour mark at around 2ppm, then by day 4 it was 4-5ppm. It hasn't increased since then and I never saw nitrites. 

 

Should I be using zeolite and polyfill media in the betta tank? Right now I only have an aquarium co op filter and airstone running in there. I did purchase Aqua Clear Ammonia Remover that got here several days ago. Would putting this in a media bag in the center inside of the spone filter help any? Or should I be using the new filter set up I got? pH is 6.6 with ammoia at 0.25-0.3ppm. Temps were lowered from 80 to 78.5°-79° to help decrease impact of ammonia on him. It is a 10 gallon and is a lot more brown from leaves than it was in this picture. Around 8 to 10 giant leaves (I can't remember right now because the ones I got in were like 9 inches so I think I put less than one per gallon). 

 

Thank You all for the help  

Would adding more dechlorinated water help this to dilute it a bit further? It was originally at 7ppm and went down to 4ppm but stalled there. Nitrates rose up to 4-5ppm at that time, but nitrites any nitrites. I was doing the sit and wait method for it to go down, but on day 4 since the last time it went down, I'm getting impatient. 

Me personally I would just do a 50% water change bringing it to 2ppm ammonia. and let it do its thing from there. 

[Pepere]

I bought a few bottles of Dr Tims, a few of stability, a few of fritzyme 7 , an aqueon product a few bottles of another highly reccomended product.  None of them did anything I could perceive.  Took the same time to cycle as a tank I just left to run with no bacteria in a bottle products.

 

I did another tank that I put a mesh bag of Black Kow composted cow manure next to the filter.  In 2 weeks that tank could metabolize a loading dose of 4 ppm ammonia to 0 ammonia, 0 nitrites and a lot of nitrates with 24 hours of dosing the ammonia..

 

I can not forsee a scenario where I would ever purchase or recommend purchasing any bacteria in a bottle product…

 

But, Lots of people swear by them and recommend them heavily….

[Pepere]

On 2/15/2024 at 4:07 PM, MidnightBel said:

I did purchase Aqua Clear Ammonia Remover that got here several days ago. Would putting this in a media bag in the center inside of the spone filter help any? Or should I be using the new filter set up I got? pH is 6.6 with ammoia at 0.25-0.3ppm.

If you wish to use it, I would place it in the box filter. 
 

the chart below shows the total ammonia level that you can have before it reaches toxic levels for a given temperature and ph.

 

At a water temp of about 75 Fahrenheit and a ph of 6.8, you are safe up to 6.1 ppm total ammonia.

 

it is free ammonia that is toxic. Total ammonia is the total of toxic free ammonia and non toxic ammonium.  The ratio between free ammonia and ammoniumchanged depending on temp and ph.

 

With a small Beta tank, simply water changig out the total ammonia would be fine and fairly easy.

[MidnightBel]

On 2/15/2024 at 5:26 PM, Pepere said:

If you wish to use it, I would place it in the box filter. 
 

the chart below shows the total ammonia level that you can have before it reaches toxic levels for a given temperature and ph.

 

At a water temp of about 75 Fahrenheit and a ph of 6.8, you are safe up to 6.1 ppm total ammonia.

 

it is free ammonia that is toxic. Total ammonia is the total of toxic free ammonia and non toxic ammonium.  The ratio between free ammonia and ammoniumchanged depending on temp and ph.

 

With a small Beta tank, simply water changig out the total ammonia would be fine and fairly easy.

Just realized I never replied to this. Thank you so much for the chart. The amount of relief you gave me just now with actually being able to pinpoint what is safe and what isn't with the pH and temps is a lifesaver. 

[Pepere]

It is very handy to be aware of.  You still always want your total ammonia to be zero except in the hours after a water change if you have ammonia in your tap water..  you always ideally want a robust beneficial bacteria colony  that can metabolize ammonia quickly.

 

The chart however reduces anxiety as you wait for your beneficial bacteria colony to grow.

[MidnightBel]

Speaking of waiting for beneficial bacteria, my mother and I jumped for joy when my Nitrites in my filter bin read 0.05-0.1 today. Haven't tested in 2 days after adding more Dr Tims One and Only. Might dump some more today because it doesn't hurt at least even if it might not help.😂

[Pepere]

On 2/17/2024 at 5:51 AM, MidnightBel said:

Might dump some more today because it doesn't hurt at least even if it might not help.😂

Might as well use it since you paid for it…maybe it helps, maybe not…. I would be adding it if I paid for it…. I just never saw enough indication to give me any inclination to buy more.

[tolstoy21]

On 2/15/2024 at 2:18 AM, MidnightBel said:

I got this for the added help of adding some mechanical filtration to my tanks to add to my current spong filters.

If you already have some sponge filters in the tank. I would empty that box filter out, put just enough ceramic media in to keep it keep it from floating, and then fill the rest of the space loosely with Poly-fil (was actually just recommending Poly-fil in another post). The other sponge filters in the aquarium will handle the bio-filtration and the box filter will handle the mechanical via the Poly-fil.

In my opinion, and this is just an opinion, if you have a well-cycled tank and keep up with water changes and routine cleaning, that's all one needs in a box filter--something to keep it from floating and some floss filling.  It's a tried and true K.I.S.S. methodology that aquarists have been doing forever and that absolutely works. And it's less expensive than special things like ammonia pads or carbon, which really is not required at all unless you are aiming to use them temporarily to fix a known problem.