Get'r Done - 40 Breeder

[Billipo]

Sharing my stocking plan to set up a community tank. I have an idle tank that I need to use or loose! 

2 Bolivian Rams and 1 German Blue Ram have been in the tank for a week, doing fine. Tank has been up and running, sparsely planted for about 2 weeks.

Next I plan to add 5 Red Eye Tetras hopefully this week. Once fish get acquainted, I plan on placing an order for the remainder of the planned fish - 6 Panda Corys and 16 Blue Emperor Tetras.

I have past experience with all the fish with exception of the Blue Emperor Tetras. Emperor Tetras are one of my favorites, but I thought I'd try the blue being they are smaller, look very similar, while still having good qualities as my primary schooling fish.

According to AqAdvisor, I'd be well below recommended "levels".

I guess if I had a specific question or the forum: "Should I get 8 or the planned 16 Blue Emperor Tetras"? 

[Lennie]

German blue rams are great but they require high temperatures. I keep mine at 28/29C.

Therefore, the temperature issue is limiting for the species you wanna add in general. 28C is way too hot for panda cories. Maybe you can go for something around 27.5 and try sterbais? I keep sterbais with discus and I used to keep them with my GBR for some time in the past until they pair up. they seem to do okay for the past 2 years but it is not easy to comment on long term effect.

I would do 8 sterbais and 12 blue emperor tetras.

And leave some space for anything you might be interested in to add in the future. 

[Billipo]

Thanks for the input Lennie.

I currently have the tank at 76 degrees.

I'll do some reading on the Sterbai Cory. I've never kept them, but I'm pretty sure they would be a viable option. I was planning on ordering fish from Aqua Huna and they do sell Sterbais in groups of 4. 

Unfortunately the Blue Emperor Tetras come in groups of 8, so it's 8 or 16.

[jwcarlson]

Lennie is right about the rams, you're probably going to have trouble with the GBR at 76.  As far as sterbai go, I keep mine at 75-77 typically.  I'm going to have some in with my discus here shortly at 82.

I have blue kerri tetras (sometimes called emperors or vice/versa, I think... either way similar fish I think).  They're BUSY, but I do really like them.  They're a bit nippy but I've got 15 or 16 of them and they mostly are nippy amongst themselves.  I've not noticed them harassing anything else.  They do eat shrimp, though.

[Billipo]

I'll raise the temperature a few degrees in AM when I can closely monitor. 

Backstory: I was trying to get 3 Bolivian, but ended up with one GBR that I didn't notice was in the tank. Color was flushed out during netting. My bad.

I'm thinking Sterbai Cory is a good call. A nice looking fish that should work well with companions. Eight of them may test my filter per AgAdvisor so I'm thinking 4. Some sources saying 4 - 6 OK. Must be true, it's on the Internet. 🤔

 

 

 

 

[nabokovfan87]

On 12/28/2023 at 1:04 PM, Billipo said:

2 Bolivian Rams and 1 German Blue Ram have been in the tank for a week, doing fine. Tank has been up and running, sparsely planted for about 2 weeks.

Next I plan to add 5 Red Eye Tetras hopefully this week. Once fish get acquainted, I plan on placing an order for the remainder of the planned fish - 6 Panda Corys and 16 Blue Emperor Tetras.

bolivian rams and tetras - about 78 degrees
most corydoras - about 72-74 degrees
german blue rams (per Dean and Cory from Aquarium Co-Op) you would want to keep them warmer at about 80 degrees or so.

That being said, I don't know what works best for the situation.  I wouldn't advice or recommend keeping a tank with both german blue and bolivian rams.  They are awesome, but I would focus on just one type.

If you want to have corydoras, try something like sterbai or trilineatus/false julii as a good option for warmer tank setups in a tetra/ram community tank.

Here is some inspiration for you and one of the coolest ram setups I've ever seen.
 

 

[nabokovfan87]

On 12/28/2023 at 4:48 PM, Billipo said:

Backstory: I was trying to get 3 Bolivian, but ended up with one GBR that I didn't notice was in the tank. Color was flushed out during netting. My bad.

It happens!  Unfortunately.  Maybe you can donate the fish to a friend or return it to the store?

How many tanks do you have in total?

Welcome to the forums, also!  Happy to have you here.

 

[Billipo]

On 12/28/2023 at 7:55 PM, nabokovfan87 said:

It happens!  Unfortunately.  Maybe you can donate the fish to a friend or return it to the store?

How many tanks do you have in total?

Welcome to the forums, also!  Happy to have you here.

 

Thank you! I don't think the store will take back the fish, but I'll ask. I have another tank but it is a cold water tank with Central Mudminnows (Ohio). They are in the pike family but only a couple inches long. I also have a 20 long I'm not using..... wait is this a trap to get me hooked?!  🙂

[GoofyGarra]

On 12/28/2023 at 8:13 PM, Billipo said:

Thank you! I don't think the store will take back the fish, but I'll ask

If you have a local aquarium club you could probably pass on the fish to people there

[ColBud]

As to the question of quantity I always go for more then I think I want. That way you still should have the total number you really want after any losses.

[Billipo]

Thanks for all the input. Has given me a lot to think about.

First of all, Ignore the GBR in the equation. I decided that this single potentially sensitive fish which was not part of the plan is not going to steer my choices in fish selection and dictate water parameters. I did raise the temp to 78 degrees F. I'll keep an eye on him and figure what to do.

Here's what I'm thinking (right now).... Plants in for over 2 weeks, fish in for just over a week, First Water test Weds- pH 7, Ammonium 1, Nitrites .25, Nitrates 0.

Stocking plan ...

2 Bolivian Rams, 1 German Blue Ram. (in tank)

16 Blue Emperor Tetra, 4 Sterbai Cory (Aqua Huna planned order)  

5 Red Eye Tetra (Local Pet Shop) 

Question to the forum:  "Should I order the Blue Emperors & Sterbai Cory first or wait until I can locate some Red Eye Tetra then order?"

[Miranda Marie]

On 12/29/2023 at 3:41 PM, Billipo said:

Should I order the Blue Emperors & Sterbai Cory first or wait until I can locate some Red Eye Tetra then order?"

I would not suggest ordering all of them at once. Your tank is still not reading as cycled (there should be *no* ammonia or nitrite of any kind once your tank is properly cycled, both of those are very toxic to fish). So I would wait until you consistently have 0 of both those readings and then slowly add one of each of those species at a time. Adding that many fish all at once is asking for a large ammonia/nitrite bloom which can result in fish death.

It's always best to stock tanks slowly and make sure your cycle is keeping up with the number of fish the tank has in it.

[Miranda Marie]

On 12/29/2023 at 3:41 PM, Billipo said:

Should I order the Blue Emperors & Sterbai Cory first or wait until I can locate some Red Eye Tetra then order?"

I would not suggest ordering all of them at once. Your tank is still not reading as cycled (there should be *no* ammonia or nitrite of any kind once your tank is properly cycled, both of those are very toxic to fish). So I would wait until you consistently have 0 of both those readings and then slowly add one of those species at a time. Adding that many fish all at once is asking for a large ammonia/nitrite bloom which can result in fish death.

It's always best to stock tanks slowly and make sure your cycle is keeping up with the number of fish the tank has in it.

[Billipo]

On 12/29/2023 at 8:14 PM, Miranda Marie said:

I would not suggest ordering all of them at once. Your tank is still not reading as cycled (there should be *no* ammonia or nitrite of any kind once your tank is properly cycled, both of those are very toxic to fish). So I would wait until you consistently have 0 of both those readings and then slowly add one of each of those species at a time. Adding that many fish all at once is asking for a large ammonia/nitrite bloom which can result in fish death.

It's always best to stock tanks slowly and make sure your cycle is keeping up with the number of fish the tank has in it.

It's been a while since I had a tropical tank. Historically I introduced the fish very slowly as you suggest. My gut says to get the Red Eyes first then wait, but I figured I would ask. I'm anxious to get some company for the Bolivians. I think it would be good for them. 

I am running two filters right now one rated 250 gph (primary) the second rated 200 gph.

[Miranda Marie]

On 12/29/2023 at 7:45 PM, Billipo said:

It's been a while since I had a tropical tank. Historically I introduced the fish very slowly as you suggest. My gut says to get the Red Eyes first then wait, but I figured I would ask. I'm anxious to get some company for the Bolivians. I think it would be good for them. 

I am running two filters right now one rated 250 gph (primary) the second rated 200 gph.

Unfortunately, the amount of water turn over doesn't affect how much beneficial bacteria that have grown in the filter to handle the bioload. It takes time for the bacteria colonies to grow properly. So I'd definitely give it a couple weeks for the ammonia and nitrite to go to 0, and then pick one of the species to introduce and then monitor the levels with the increased bioload. In the long run, it will be a lot less water changes and stress for both you and the fish.

[jwcarlson]

On 12/28/2023 at 6:48 PM, Billipo said:

I'll raise the temperature a few degrees in AM when I can closely monitor. 

Backstory: I was trying to get 3 Bolivian, but ended up with one GBR that I didn't notice was in the tank. Color was flushed out during netting. My bad.

I'm thinking Sterbai Cory is a good call. A nice looking fish that should work well with companions. Eight of them may test my filter per AgAdvisor so I'm thinking 4. Some sources saying 4 - 6 OK. Must be true, it's on the Internet. 🤔

 

 

 

 

I have six sterbai in my 40B community tank.  They seem to be fine.  They spawn sometimes in there, I've pulled them to spawn them separately and raise the fry myself.

I'm trying to decide if I think you'll have an issue with too many fish.  My 40B has become a catch all.  It has 15 or 16 kerri tetras.  2 rummynose, 1 lemon tetra, 1 cardinal tetra, 1 kuhli loach that I ended up with thinking I owned 7 when I rehomed them, 6 sterbai, a couple of small bristlenose, and 1-2 male apistos depending on what is going on in the apisto tanks.  A bunch of left overs from the last couple of years.  Sadly, the majority of those losses were to rummy and lemons swimming into the water change hose in my discus tank when draining unmonitored.  So I think you'll probably be OK.  Mine is a jungle of plants, so that helps.  But as long as the rams get along you should be OK.  

Would it be possible for you to return the GBR in favor of another bolivian?  The temperature requirements are likely to be an issue at some point.

I would stock it slowly if you can, BUT ordering online usually makes that difficult.  Are you going to quarantine them for awhile?  If you've got a QT tank or tub, that might help you be able to order more at once.  I'm not suggesting you do this necessarily, but I "fish-in" cycle almost everything using frequent water changes and Seachem Prime and Stability.  It usually only takes a couple weeks to get it rolling decently, though maybe not fully cycled in every meaning of the word.

[madmark285]

On 12/29/2023 at 9:45 PM, Billipo said:

Historically I introduced the fish very slowly as you suggest.

Of course this is the best way to stock your tank. But this doesn't always work when buying fish online. Aqua Huna has reasonable shipping rates but these cost will add up if making multiple purchases.

So my question is, how to prepare your tank for a initial big purchase? You can buy a big bottle of ammonia in a bottle and keep dosing your tank for an extended period. You can put food in the tank and let it rot away. 

My plan for a 75 gallon Mbuna tank, i have already started conditioning the K1 media (fluidized bed) in a 5 gallon bucket. Once the tank is set up, I will run it for a month or so before i buy the fish. Just before buying the fish, I will heavily dose the tank with ammonia.

On a positive note, 20-24 juvenile Mbuna cichlids will have a much lower bio load than adults. So as the fish grow, so will the bacteria colonies. 

Good luck! 

Edited December 30, 2023 by madmark285

[Billipo]

On 12/30/2023 at 12:26 AM, jwcarlson said:

I have six sterbai in my 40B community tank.  They seem to be fine.  They spawn sometimes in there, I've pulled them to spawn them separately and raise the fry myself.

I'm trying to decide if I think you'll have an issue with too many fish.  My 40B has become a catch all.  It has 15 or 16 kerri tetras.  2 rummynose, 1 lemon tetra, 1 cardinal tetra, 1 kuhli loach that I ended up with thinking I owned 7 when I rehomed them, 6 sterbai, a couple of small bristlenose, and 1-2 male apistos depending on what is going on in the apisto tanks.  A bunch of left overs from the last couple of years.  Sadly, the majority of those losses were to rummy and lemons swimming into the water change hose in my discus tank when draining unmonitored.  So I think you'll probably be OK.  Mine is a jungle of plants, so that helps.  But as long as the rams get along you should be OK.  

Would it be possible for you to return the GBR in favor of another bolivian?  The temperature requirements are likely to be an issue at some point.

I would stock it slowly if you can, BUT ordering online usually makes that difficult.  Are you going to quarantine them for awhile?  If you've got a QT tank or tub, that might help you be able to order more at once.  I'm not suggesting you do this necessarily, but I "fish-in" cycle almost everything using frequent water changes and Seachem Prime and Stability.  It usually only takes a couple weeks to get it rolling decently, though maybe not fully cycled in every meaning of the word.

It appears your tank stocking level is similar to what I was thinking. Please continue to share your thoughts. I watched couple YouTube videos comparing tank size, footage of school sizes, and behavior for Blue Emperors. In a community tank, they look good both in 8 and 16. As was stated on an earlier post (ColBud) better to plan for a few losses which is leaning me towards 16. Yet I don't want the tank to be too busy. Too bad there isn't a virtual tank App where you can stock your fish and see virtually! 

Online ordering becomes my real issue. Unlike a local fish store there isn't the option of picking your own quantities and spreading out orders without paying all that extra shipping.

Multiple forum comments got me thinking about temporarily setting up an idle 20 long I have with the extra filter which is generating bacteria, stealing one of the three heaters from the 40 and using the 20 as a quarantine tank. 

I'll figure a relocation plan for the GBR, but I will likely just keep only 2 Bolivian not to change dynamics since they seem to be getting along well.

Thank you and everyone else for feedback. It has been helpful in steering me on a righteous path and creating confidence in my planning. Time to get my morning coffee!

[Billipo]

Still patiently waiting.  Historically, I have seldom lost any fish and I hope to continue this way. 

Yet I think my past tropical tank success was luck based on the "What doesn't kill the fish makes them stronger" method of fish introduction and of course a different water source - my local water uses Chloramines, not Chlorine as was my previous experience.  I'm thinking the water difference is the root of my current issues.

The biggest lesson I've learned wading through this entire tank start-up process is "understand your entire situation first, then you can ask better questions and get better answers".

This has been a fun re-education to fish-keeping. I guess "What doesn't kill me makes me stronger".

[Billipo]

Still patiently waiting .........................

Algae Bloom on rocks. Plants showing new growth. Ammonium 0.0, Nitrites 2.0 - Been that way for days.

Fish seem fine, just hungry since I've been limiting feedings. Fish colors washed out in photos. Much better "in person". I had trouble getting a decent picture w/ fish and algae.

[Galabar]

Cycling a new tank can take 40 days.  It looks like you are right on track with the nitrite spike.

On a side note, it would be amazing if someone like Dr. Tim's would include both ammonia and nitrite in their cycling product... 🙂

[Lennie]

On 1/8/2024 at 11:50 PM, Billipo said:

Algae Bloom on rocks.

That looks like cyanobacteria/blue green algae. You may want to kill it before it spreads too much

Also the ram on the right have a sunken belly it seems. You may need to try stuff like deworming/using antibiotics etc.

@Colu what do you think?

[Colu]

On 1/8/2024 at 8:50 PM, Billipo said:

Still patiently waiting .........................

Algae Bloom on rocks. Plants showing new growth. Ammonium 0.0, Nitrites 2.0 - Been that way for days.

Fish seem fine, just hungry since I've been limiting feedings. Fish colors washed out in photos. Much better "in person". I had trouble getting a decent picture w/ fish and algae.

With nitrites of 2ppm I would do daily 50% water change and add a double dose of prime to help detoxify any ammonia or nitrite till it constantly stays at zero the ram on the in the middle of the picture looks like it's go a sunken if so you would need to treat with levamisole once a week for for for weeks am not sure if that's cyanobacteria it could be an not the best when it comes to Identifying algae @Lennie

[Billipo]

Thanks for feedback.

Regarding Algae - I noticed the fish snack on it. Since photo taken 60% on the big rock is gone. I do plan on cutting back on hours of lighting. 

The fish on the left is more aggressive feeding and bullies the other a little bit. One reason, I'm anxious to get tank mates (when appropriate) for distraction. The fish on right is thinner, but photo is definitely not flattering. Makes the belly seem worse. I'm watching. Ironically it has stronger coloring. Neither seem to be behaving strangely. They typically hang out and swim together though there is an occasion brief sign of aggression.

I have been doing 20% water changes about every other day. 20% allows me to keep filtration on while changing water. But honestly, I'm a bit scared to do larger/more frequent water changes. Is that not OK? 

Shortly after initiating this post, I added a seasoned sponge and started the process to cycle a fishless quarantine tank. 

EDIT - picture added- taken 1/10 9AM

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited January 10 by Billipo
added picture

[flyingcow]

On 1/10/2024 at 8:47 AM, Billipo said:

Thanks for feedback.

Regarding Algae - I noticed the fish snack on it. Since photo taken 60% on the big rock is gone. I do plan on cutting back on hours of lighting. 

The fish on the left is more aggressive feeding and bullies the other a little bit. One reason, I'm anxious to get tank mates (when appropriate) for distraction. The fish on right is thinner, but photo is definitely not flattering. Makes the belly seem worse. I'm watching. Ironically it has stronger coloring. Neither seem to be behaving strangely. They typically hang out and swim together though there is an occasion brief sign of aggression.

I have been doing 20% water changes about every other day. 20% allows me to keep filtration on while changing water. But honestly, I'm a bit scared to do larger/more frequent water changes. Is that not OK? 

Shortly after initiating this post, I added a seasoned sponge and started the process to cycle a fishless quarantine tank. 

EDIT - picture added- taken 1/10 9AM

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Bolivian Rams can be tricky if you have two males. I had this issue, and sadly the one who was bullied stopped eating and passed away before I could get a quarantine tank running. My lesson learned (which won't help you at this point) was get the dither fish first, and add cichlids in groups of three or more. My remaining ram is happy as a lark, but I'm not gonna introduce any more until he's gone.