Fish-In Cycling Question (With Seachem Prime)

[Mercfh]

So with my new aquarium I did a TON of research and I think I felt confident on the fish-in cycling method. I have a 29 Gallon aquarium and the test strips as well as Seachem Prime and Stability (Both dosed yesterday). Later in the day I purchased 4 guppies (To keep the bio-load at a minimum) and 6 plants (Some Java Ferns and some Anacharis, which the Anacharis came from a cycled tank so that should help). I thought maybe a couple of small snails probably wouldn't hurt the bio-load. My aquarium sand also came with a few packs of "bacteria starter" so I tossed those in too (Couldn't hurt).

The fish seem fine and are eating, and aren't like gasping for air or anything.

That being said I want to make sure I understand the process:

1. Keep checking tests everyday (I have the API test kit)
2. If you see Ammonia, dose it with Seachem prime (1 "dose" can handle 1 ppm of Ammonia from what i've read)
3. (Here is where I get confused and read conflicting steps): Sometimes I see "If it goes above .2 do a partial water change" (Does partial mean 50% or like 25%?) however https://fishlab.com/fish-in-cycle/ states if it goes above 2ppm do a 50% change. This reddit thread (From a chemist presumably) sorta indicates that you should not OVER change your water if ammonia or nitrite is between 1-2 (https://www.reddit.com/r/PlantedTank/comments/ttdmvc/heres_your_friendly_reminder_that_your_green_api) 
4. Keep doing this basically until Ammonia is 0 and Nitrites are 0 and you see some nitrates

There is a bit of confusion because Seachem prime doesn't "get rid" of Ammonia, so you still see it on the test? I guess thats why you don't change water till it's at 2 (or 4 combined Ammonia and Nitrite). However if you change the water do you still dose it with Prime based on the new result I guess?

Secondly any thoughts on what my reads are? Im worried my PH is too high at like 8+ but my Ammonia looks to be around .5 (Although I read seachem prime can give false ammonia readings):

 

 

[Galabar]

I fish-in cycle is as as old as the hobby.  However, more modern methods (which involve adding ammonia without fish) are more fish friendly and faster at cycling your tank.  With the method you are utilizing, you are slowing down the cycling of the tank with frequent water changes.

Also, when researching SeaChem Prime (and similar products), there really isn't much strong evidence that it works (or doesn't work).  I could personally find only two experiments that (a) conflicted with each other and (b) were not very rigorous.  It may help as a buffer between ammonia and your fish, but it also may not.

It's really difficult to now the "correct" amount of water changes needed when doing a fish-in cycle.  It may be good to keep fish exposed to lower levels of ammonia for a longer period of time or higher levels of ammonia over a shorter period of time.  I'm not sure there is any good data out there to answer that.

 

Edited December 21, 2023 by Galabar

[nabokovfan87]

On 12/20/2023 at 10:19 AM, Mercfh said:

That being said I want to make sure I understand the process:

1. Keep checking tests everyday (I have the API test kit)
2. If you see Ammonia, dose it with Seachem prime (1 "dose" can handle 1 ppm of Ammonia from what i've read)
3. (Here is where I get confused and read conflicting steps): Sometimes I see "If it goes above .2 do a partial water change" (Does partial mean 50% or like 25%?) however https://fishlab.com/fish-in-cycle/ states if it goes above 2ppm do a 50% change. This reddit thread (From a chemist presumably) sorta indicates that you should not OVER change your water if ammonia or nitrite is between 1-2 (https://www.reddit.com/r/PlantedTank/comments/ttdmvc/heres_your_friendly_reminder_that_your_green_api) 
4. Keep doing this basically until Ammonia is 0 and Nitrites are 0 and you see some nitrates

Cycling for me has been with food to generate ammonia, not necessarily fish in there.

Test for all stages of the nitrogen cycle as mentioned. Preferably every 12 hours.

If you see any ammonia or nitrite, then you'd do your water change and dose in dechlorinator. (No more than once per 24 hours)

If you have chloramines or very high levels, do a double dose of dechlorinator.

Make sure you're running an extra air stone and that your filtration is working properly.

If you see ammonia high (let's say above 0.5) or nitrite high (above 0.5) then you'd do that water change.

If you run into issues with levels, use a bacteria starter like seachem stability or fritz zyme 7 for about a week.

[Mercfh]

On 12/20/2023 at 9:47 PM, nabokovfan87 said:

Cycling for me has been with food to generate ammonia, not necessarily fish in there.

Test for all stages of the nitrogen cycle as mentioned. Preferably every 12 hours.

If you see any ammonia or nitrite, then you'd do your water change and dose in dechlorinator. (No more than once per 24 hours)

If you have chloramines or very high levels, do a double dose of dechlorinator.

Make sure you're running an extra air stone and that your filtration is working properly.

If you see ammonia high (let's say above 0.5) or nitrite high (above 0.5) then you'd do that water change.

If you run into issues with levels, use a bacteria starter like seachem stability or fritz zyme 7 for about a week.

The issue from i've seen is that even with dosing seachem it doesn't change the test itself (Which is why I guess i've seen it suggested to change water when it hits 2.0 of Ammonia (or 4.0 of Ammonia + Nitrite)

On the plus side I purchased 2 Driftwood and about 4 plants from a cycled tank so that'll probably help? My Ammonia seems to be sticking around .25 for the past 2 days now.

[nabokovfan87]

On 12/20/2023 at 7:10 PM, Mercfh said:

On the plus side I purchased 2 Driftwood and about 4 plants from a cycled tank so that'll probably help?

It would help, but it won't be as helpful as other things.

On 12/20/2023 at 7:10 PM, Mercfh said:

My Ammonia seems to be sticking around .25 for the past 2 days now.

That's good, lower is best!

[Mercfh]

On 12/20/2023 at 10:23 PM, nabokovfan87 said:

It would help, but it won't be as helpful as other things.

That's good, lower is best!

When do you think it's worth doing a water change? the fish in cycling guide most people refer to (Using seachem prime) says 50% at 2.0 but maybe when it hits 1 or .5 doing a 25% change would be better?

The fish at least seem ok, they are eating and swimming around normally. 

[nabokovfan87]

On 12/20/2023 at 7:40 PM, Mercfh said:

When do you think it's worth doing a water change? the fish in cycling guide most people refer to (Using seachem prime) says 50% at 2.0 but maybe when it hits 1 or .5 doing a 25% change would be better?

The fish at least seem ok, they are eating and swimming around normally. 

Fish only, no dwarf shrimp, then I will often just do a 50% water change.  The max ammonia I ever want to see is 0.25 at most.  By the time you do the water change, that's cut to about 0.15 and after 24 hours you're back up.  Ammonia --> Nitrite happens pretty fast, but nitrite --> nitrate takes a little bit longer to get done.  1.0 is a pretty high amount of ammonia, in my experience.  The goal of water changes at this point is to keep ammonia from climbing too high, but it's also about getting the dechlorinator in there when you end up with any ammonia or nitrite.  Once you see nitrite, you'll likely never see ammonia anymore because it can so quickly be converted to nitrite.  Then you're doing that same thing with nitrite.

Edited December 21, 2023 by nabokovfan87

[Mercfh]

Ok thanks, that makes sense. Since im dosing with prime everyday i'll probably try not to let it get over .5 and check daily.

[Chick-In-Of-TheSea]

I’d personally water change when I see ANY ammonia. Ammonia is highly toxic to fish, even at low levels. This may slow the cycle, sure, but I think it won’t slow it that much because you added bacteria as well.

Prime “locks up” ammonia for 24 hrs but it’s still ammonia, and will show up on a test.

[JettsPapa]

There is no substitute for clean water.  I'd skip the Prime and just do water changes to keep the combined ammonia and nitrites low; ideally below .50 ppm, but definitely below 1.0 ppm.  The safe level depends on your pH, since ammonia is more toxic at higher pH, but those values are a good general guideline.

Edit:  Add Prime or a similar product to neutralize chlorine or chloramine when you add fresh water.  I don't have to bother with it, so I forgot to mention it above.  I just meant that I don't recommend using Prime instead of doing a water change.

Edited December 21, 2023 by JettsPapa

[AndEEss]

On 12/21/2023 at 6:34 AM, JettsPapa said:

There is no substitute for clean water.  I'd skip the Prime and just do water changes to keep the combined ammonia and nitrites low; ideally below .50 ppm, but definitely below 1.0 ppm.  The safe level depends on your pH, since ammonia is more toxic at higher pH, but those values are a good general guideline.

To be clear, you should still dose prime when performing a water change to deal with any chlorine or chloramines in the water. 

[Tanked]

On 12/20/2023 at 10:40 PM, Mercfh said:

When do you think it's worth doing a water change? the fish in cycling guide most people refer to (Using seachem prime) says 50% at 2.0 but maybe when it hits 1 or .5 doing a 25% change would be better?

The fish at least seem ok, they are eating and swimming around normally. 

Admittedly it has been a long time since I've done a straightforward  fish in cycle setup.  Zero being the goal, I would begin water changes at 1 ppm.  Smaller water changes are easier on you and the fish.

https://www.aquariumcoop.com/blogs/aquarium/how-to-change-aquarium-water-correctly

[JettsPapa]

On 12/21/2023 at 9:51 AM, AndEEss said:

To be clear, you should still dose prime when performing a water change to deal with any chlorine or chloramines in the water. 

Thanks.  I added an edit to clarify that.

[Lonkley]

On 12/21/2023 at 3:03 AM, Chick-In-Of-TheSea said:

Prime “locks up” ammonia for 24 hrs but it’s still ammonia, and will show up on a test.

You know, that's what I always read, and it's like what does that even mean.  I mean if it looks like a duck, and it quacks like a duck..  I just don't see how it locks up ammonia. 

[Mercfh]

Im still going to do water changes regardless (When it hits .5ppm) or every 48hours since thats when prime wears off. 

When it comes to de-chlorinating water since it's kinda hard to gauge how much is going in (or if you use a system like the python where you can fill it from the tap): Is it ok to just put whatever the "total amount" of dechlorinator for the total tank size in BEFORE putting in the new water? Or is that dangerous? (I guess it's better to do a little over right?)

Because sometimes it's hard to really say "Oh I removed exactly 10 gallons" or whatever. Surely the extra dechlorinator wouldn't hurt the fish if the extra was in there while you put the new water in? (Sorry if the question is confusing)

[nabokovfan87]

On 12/21/2023 at 9:01 AM, Mercfh said:

Because sometimes it's hard to really say "Oh I removed exactly 10 gallons" or whatever. Surely the extra dechlorinator wouldn't hurt the fish if the extra was in there while you put the new water in? (Sorry if the question is confusing)

Double dose is pretty common. Used for when tap has chloramines. That being said it's often stated on the bottle that up to 5x does is safe. The main thing is to just have oxygenation because the chemical does remove some oxygen from the water. Not any sort of major issue. Dose it for the tank, add back in your water. Bobs your uncle.

[AllFishNoBrakes]

On 12/21/2023 at 10:01 AM, Mercfh said:

"Oh I removed exactly 10 gallons" or whatever.

I dose for the entire volume on the tank. When doing water changes on my smaller tanks, I’ll dose the water as it’s filling up in a bucket. When I’m doing the bigger tanks and using my Python I’ll dose as soon as the water starts to flow from the Python. Never had an issue doing it this way. 

[Chick-In-Of-TheSea]

On 12/21/2023 at 12:01 PM, Lonkley said:

You know, that's what I always read, and it's like what does that even mean.  I mean if it looks like a duck, and it quacks like a duck..  I just don't see how it locks up ammonia. 

It changes the properties of the ammonia, rendering it nontoxic for 24 hours. Like how you take ibuprofen for a headache and when the ibuprofen wears off the headache comes back.

[Mercfh]

On 12/21/2023 at 12:47 PM, Chick-In-Of-TheSea said:

It changes the properties of the ammonia, rendering it nontoxic for 24 hours. Like how you take ibuprofen for a headache and when the ibuprofen wears off the headache comes back.

I think they say actually 48 hours but probably better to be on the safe side.

Glad to hear people dose for the full volume of the tank during water changes because I feel like that's just safer than underdosing.

[Chick-In-Of-TheSea]

On 12/21/2023 at 1:50 PM, Mercfh said:

I think they say actually 48 hours but probably better to be on the safe side.

Glad to hear people dose for the full volume of the tank during water changes because I feel like that's just safer than underdosing.

Yes I dose at 24 hr because I don’t want them to suffer if/when it wears off.

[Galabar]

On 12/21/2023 at 9:01 AM, Lonkley said:

You know, that's what I always read, and it's like what does that even mean.  I mean if it looks like a duck, and it quacks like a duck..  I just don't see how it locks up ammonia. 

The chemists on the various forums state that they don't believe it works as they don't know of any way that it could work (and they are still able to measure ammonia after dosing Prime or similar products).  Others swear by it.  It's actually quite a big controversy.

I tried to research it a bit, but I was able to find little actual experimental data.  I found two contradicting experiments, neither of which was particularly rigorous.

It's actually quite a strange situation.  You've got a product that is widely used, but with no actual solid research to show that it does (or doesn't) work.

It could be just bloodletting, or it could be a fish life saver. 🤔

My advice is, if you have it, you might as well use it, but pretend that it doesn't work, meaning continue to do your water changes.  If it works, great, if not, you are still reducing ammonia with the water changes.

Edited December 22, 2023 by Galabar