Can't seem to grow val

[MN-AQUARIST]

Hi I have a 60g  established tank that for some reason I can't get Val to grow in. It stays short and redish in color, and will hardly spread if at all. I can grow crypts, pogostems, Java fern, flame sword and anubias however.   Small sized established gravel plus root tabs, easy green to keep nitrates between 20-60 ppm ie 6 pumps or so a week, aco 4ft light at 70%.  Water is very hard but I did just install a water softener today so that will be changing. Any advice? 

[Kit Craft]

Val. grows well for me in a tank with lighting that is somewhere around the 30 par (based on what data I could find online). 6 hours of light a day. I keep my nitrates at 40ish ppm. Weekly water changes at around 40-50 percent (I eyeball it). Temperature is kept at around 70. More like 69-71. 7.8 ph, 300+ppm gh, 180ppm kh. I pump of easy green per 10 gallons per week. Loads of snail waste (mystery, ramshorns and mts). The tank is a dirt tank capped with sand and gravel. About 1 inch of homemade potting soil with worm castings, coco peat, sphagnum and sand. An inch and a half of sand on top and a very thin layer of pea gravel. 

What grows in the same tank? Salvina and java moss. What doesn't like to grow? Anubias and Java fern. I think this, for me, is a lighting issue as these plants do fine in my tanks that don't use dedicated planted lights, but the val does less well in those tanks. 

I will say it took about a month for my val to establish and another month to start throwing runners and now it won't stop. 

Other things to mention. My water is super high in iron. Like fill up a cup and the whole bottom is full of it. My water is also high in calcium. Makes tons of scale quickly. But I have no idea what else is in my water fwiw. 

Fwiw, my val seems to do better with less frequent water changes. I have no idea why. Maybe it likes stability more than fresh water. 

So, no real advice as I am new to plants, but I can at least share with you what is going on in my tank with the same plant. I hope someone has something more substantial to add. I have a thread about val too and it seems like some people can grow val really well and some people can't grow it well at all. 

[nabokovfan87]

The first thing I noticed is that you have an inert substrate, but you also have a very thin layer for that substrate.  Val, PSO, and other plants like that need space for the root systems.   It also helps when adding root tabs to have a little bit of height on the substrate (4-6 inches is typical, 3-4 inches as a good minimum).

My gut tells me that there's just not enough on the root section for the val to utilize.  PSO does a bit better because it's a stem plant as oppose to a rosette plant.  This just means they feed in slightly different methods.

On 11/26/2023 at 9:28 AM, MN-AQUARIST said:

Water is very hard but I did just install a water softener today so that will be changing. Any advice? 

Be careful with this and potentially have a tap installed so you can get water prior to the softener.  The reason being is that some softener systems release salt into the water which could harm the fish and plants.

.......

The only other note I would have is to keep the PSO contained. It is a nutrient hog and it grows really fast.  It might be growing so fast that plants like val struggle to get what they need.  It could be an instance of root feeding the val as your main method to make sure it gets nutrients.  It should do well with that type of feeding and has for me in the past.  Just make sure there's enough room for the plant (vertically, at least 3-4 inches of substrate if you can).

Considering all the other plants are growing, I would use indicators on those plants to determine what's really going on here.  If the crypts and PSO are showing new growth, take some good photos of that growth and let's see what we can see.  The plants in general seem pale, but it could just be lighting.

[Tanked]

What Val are you trying to grow? I don't have an answer because my planted tank can grow Crypts, but won't support PSO or Val.  I do have some Italian Val runners, but it remains to be seen if they will survive.

 

 

[MN-AQUARIST]

As far as I can tell it's just jungle Val, I was able to get some pictures of new growth that I attached, I seem to be deficient in something. Not sure what though.  

[MattyM]

Maybe try getting a small clay flower pot, and putting a deeper substrate in along with some root tabs and see if that does it. I agree that vals have pretty big root systems that need space.

You can also try just floating the val or gently putting a plant weight on it and putting it on top of the substrate - I do this in my hospital tank and they still grow. 

[anewbie]

Naw you don't need dirt - a root tab won't hurt but i use pool filter sand - threw in some vals and a month later it quad-truple or something in size - infact i spent the last 2 weeks pulling out new plants because they spread out of permissible regions. Anyway it might help if you give your water parameters and par - a couple of root tabs certainly won't hurt but don't go overboard this isn't plant that requires a lot. One thing i will note is val i buy have always been over 8 inches tall (my tank is 24 inches tall); but having a bit of length will certainly help as it will get stronger light and this is a plant that will eat all available light. One other thing there are different types of vals - the only one that haven't grown no matter how much i abuse it is the cork-screw one i forget the name but it spiral around. That one requires a bit of hugging.

Also current can impact this plant but your current would have to be extreme.

Oh one other thing patience is required - at least 30 days perhaps 60 days as the plant can take a while to adjust to your water - and temp can impact the plant depending on variety - i mostly grow it between 76 and 82 - it has a wider range (dependent on species) that just happpens to be the temp i feed it. And as i mentioned above pool filter sand is as inert as substrate can be inert.

[nabokovfan87]

On 11/27/2023 at 12:16 PM, MN-AQUARIST said:

As far as I can tell it's just jungle Val, I was able to get some pictures of new growth that I attached, I seem to be deficient in something. Not sure what though.  

@Seattle_Aquarist Can you help us here with what you see going on, if anything?

[Seattle_Aquarist]

Hi All,

Thank you @nabokovfan87 for the shout out.

@MN-AQUARIST do you have any water parameter information you could share?  Specifically:

pH -
dKH -
dGH -

Also, if you are on a utility water system what is the name of the company? (Sometimes they post the water parameters on their websites).  BTW, love MN in the summer, used to go to Detroit Lakes with my family when I was a kid.  -Roy

[MN-AQUARIST]

Ph is around 7.8  

KH and GH currently max out the aco test strips, city site says about 18°hardness.

The anubias, crypts and Java fern have been growing well for several years at this point,  the Val has been surviving in thr tank for about 4 months, the pso was added about a month ago and is going crazy.   

Not sure about par measurements but the tank is 24" tall with the 4ft aco light at 70% if that helps.  I have a small amount of Val in another tank that while not spreading quickly is growing and looks much healthier. 

I think those who said the substrate isn't deep enough might be right or perhaps the crypts have taken up all the available space in the gravel with their roots.

I will be sure to monitor the water after the softener to see if it does too much or leaks salt, but best I can figure is as long as I don't run water during a recharge cycle or shortly after it no salt will be introduced to the water supply. I do have access to a non-soften tap but it is only cold so water changes will get a little trickier if I need to use that.   

Thank you to everyone so far for your input.

[nabokovfan87]

On 11/28/2023 at 7:12 AM, MN-AQUARIST said:

Not sure about par measurements but the tank is 24" tall with the 4ft aco light at 70% if that helps.  I have a small amount of Val in another tank that while not spreading quickly is growing and looks much healthier. 

That light should be plenty strong then. Yeah.

[Seattle_Aquarist]

On 11/28/2023 at 7:12 AM, MN-AQUARIST said:

Ph is around 7.8  

KH and GH currently max out the aco test strips, city site says about 18°hardness.

I will be sure to monitor the water after the softener to see if it does too much or leaks salt, but best I can figure is as long as I don't run water during a recharge cycle or shortly after it no salt will be introduced to the water supply. I do have access to a non-soften tap but it is only cold so water changes will get a little trickier if I need to use that.   

Thank you to everyone so far for your input.

Hi @MN-AQUARIST

I believe the issue is with using the 'softened' water.  Water softeners replace the calcium ions and magnesium ions in the incoming water with either sodium ions or potassium ions (depending upon the recharge agent: sodium chloride ((common)) or potassium chloride ((uncommon)).  Water coming out of the water softener should typically has a high dKH and but a low with dGH - the pH is about right for softened water. Besides not having any calcium or magnesium in your water the excess of sodium (Na) (not saying sodium chloride ((NaCl)) can also effect the ability of plants to uptake other nutrients.

Assuming you are using salt (sodium chloride ((NaCl)) as the recharge agent for your water softener I would start with just trying to re-mineralize the softened water.  This is easier than changing your water source

For convenience let's start with adding Seachem Equilibrium to the 60 gallon tank.  Do an initial dose of 1 teaspoon per 10 gallons, this will add about 13.5 ppm of calcium and 4.0 ppm of magnesium to your tank.  After the initial dose, when you do a water change add 1 teaspoon of Equilibrium for every 10 gallons you have removed from the tank.  Do not add Equilibrium for water lost due to evaporation.  Do this for one month and watch the new growth on your plants as it emerges; do not watch existing growth it will not change appreciatively.  What you should see is healthier, greener growth and an increase in the growth rate.

If you do see improvement you can change to other re-mineralizing products which are cheaper to dose.  Contact me and I will give you some alternatives.

Also, the EDTA chelated iron in ACO Easy Green in unavailable to your plants at a pH 7.8.  Start dosing Seachem Iron in addition to the Easy Green.  The ferrous gluconate iron in Seachem Iron is much easier for plants to access when the pH is over 6.8.  Hope this helps, let us know how things progress.  -Roy