Vallisneria in shallow tank

[Kit Craft]

So far, my Val. is the plant that is taking off. First, it melted but it started to grow new leaves while this was happening. Now the new leaves are about 6 inches long and the plants are starting to throw runners. I was thinking about putting some of the runners into my 3 gallon jar projects but this stuff gets tall pretty quickly and they are only about 7-8 inches tall after substrate is taken into consideration. Would you suggest trimming or once a plant starts throwing runners keeping the smaller plants and moving the bigger ones to a taller tank? As these are dirted I am not sure I want to be uprooting things frequently but Idk really.

I'm new to all things plant! As of now the only thing I can get to grow is Val, Java Moss and Salvinia. Dwarf sag.  is iffy and my Bacopa isn't sure yet, lol. 

 

Thanks all!

[JettsPapa]

I'm afraid keeping vallisneria in a shallow tank will be a constant struggle.  I'd suggest trying one of the many crypt varieties.  While there may be an initial melting period (like with most aquatic plants), most of the crypt species are easy to grow, and don't need special lights or CO2.  In fact they often do well in relatively dim light.

[Kit Craft]

On 11/1/2023 at 3:33 PM, JettsPapa said:

I'm afraid keeping vallisneria in a shallow tank will be a constant struggle.  I'd suggest trying one of the many crypt varieties.  While there may be an initial melting period (like with most aquatic plants), most of the crypt species are easy to grow, and don't need special lights or CO2.  In fact they often do well in relatively dim light.

Hum, well, I have been terrified for crypts. Java fern is said to be an easy plant but I can't keep it alive. Val., Java moss and Salvina do fine though. 😞But I figured that would be the case. Thoughts on something like dwarf chain sword? I will try some crypts too though. 

 

[JettsPapa]

I haven't grown dwarf chain sword, so I can't help with that.  I have grown Crytocoryne wendtii, which is probably the most common species, along with spiralis, usteriana, undulata, pontederiifolia, and probably others.  Spiralis is the only one that hasn't spread to make more plants.  It looks healthy, but it just sits there.

[JoeQ]

The only feasible way to keep val in a shallow tank is: (IMO) to cut it at the substrate level (keeping roots in soil to decompose, maybe even regrow) or pull it once it gets tall, grow out the babies, rinse then repeat!

Edited November 2, 2023 by JoeQ

[Kit Craft]

On 11/2/2023 at 9:20 AM, JoeQ said:

The only feasible way to keep val in a shallow tank is: (IMO) to cut it at the substrate level (keeping roots in soil to decompose, maybe even regrow) or pull it once it gets tall, grow out the babies, rinse then repeat!

Yeah, I think I'd be more inclined to pull it and transfer it if I went that route. If it grows at the rate, I am familiar with, this far, that is about 1/4 an inch a week then it would take a while. 

On 11/2/2023 at 8:46 AM, JettsPapa said:

I haven't grown dwarf chain sword, so I can't help with that.  I have grown Crytocoryne wendtii, which is probably the most common species, along with spiralis, usteriana, undulata, pontederiifolia, and probably others.  Spiralis is the only one that hasn't spread to make more plants.  It looks healthy, but it just sits there.

Cool, I'll have to check it out. The wendtii and parva are the only ones I have heard about because of the videos Cory has made. 

 

[JettsPapa]

On 11/2/2023 at 10:45 AM, Kit Craft said:

Cool, I'll have to check it out. The wendtii and parva are the only ones I have heard about because of the videos Cory has made. 

Several of the ones I mentioned above, especially the usteriana, get too large for your situation, but the wendtii should be okay.  It's probably the most common one, so you shouldn't have any problems finding it, and there are several color varieties.

I have a reddish crypt that never seems to get over about 2" tall, so would be perfect for you.  I wish I knew what species it is, but I don't have a clue.

[Kit Craft]

On 11/2/2023 at 12:00 PM, JettsPapa said:

Several of the ones I mentioned above, especially the usteriana, get too large for your situation, but the wendtii should be okay.  It's probably the most common one, so you shouldn't have any problems finding it, and there are several color varieties.

I have a reddish crypt that never seems to get over about 2" tall, so would be perfect for you.  I wish I knew what species it is, but I don't have a clue.

Eh, I'll have to order regardless. I live in the middle of nowhere. Only thing around is a petco and I don't like to buy anything alive from there. I miss the days where there was a local fish shop in every town. Like I said, I'll check out the wendtii for sure. Though I'd love something that looks and acts like val but is shorter, lol. I thought dwarf sag would be it but mine isn't taking off too well in my other tank. 

[nabokovfan87]

On 10/31/2023 at 9:29 AM, Kit Craft said:

I'm new to all things plant! As of now the only thing I can get to grow is Val, Java Moss and Salvinia. Dwarf sag.  is iffy and my Bacopa isn't sure yet, lol. 

😂

I love the "bacopa isn't sure" mindset.

@Chick-In-Of-TheSeahas a jar used for growing plants and it's done pretty well. It might be an interesting look to apart ideas or just to check out something cool, similar to what you were mentioning with the smaller projects.

As for Val, they do have smaller forms, but I do think microsword is a good place and size for the smaller setups. Root tabs might help, same with the bacopa, depending on what your substrate it and those factors of course.

[Kit Craft]

On 11/5/2023 at 3:15 PM, nabokovfan87 said:

😂

I love the "bacopa isn't sure" mindset.

@Chick-In-Of-TheSeahas a jar used for growing plants and it's done pretty well. It might be an interesting look to apart ideas or just to check out something cool, similar to what you were mentioning with the smaller projects.

As for Val, they do have smaller forms, but I do think microsword is a good place and size for the smaller setups. Root tabs might help, same with the bacopa, depending on what your substrate it and those factors of course.

I have capped potting soil. But I do have root tabs that I can use too if needed. I have been watching the jar thread!

As for Bacopa, I put some in two jars and it is taking off better in one than the other. The one that gets indirect sunlight, for whatever reason. I had a small chunk grow up past the rim so I cut it and planted it in the 10 gallon replacement that I setup on Wednesday. We shall see how that goes. 

Anyway, I wanna order a CO-OP air pump and more of that black tubing because it is so much better than the stuff from petco. I guess I will throw in some chain sword, dwarf sag and a crypt too. 

As an aside, my WCMM think my duckweed is fish flakes...It hitchhiked on the Salvina. It is funny to see them go after it. 

Thanks, again, for the suggestions!

[Opie]

Any one know if there is a height that Val will stop growing at?

[JettsPapa]

On 11/5/2023 at 5:16 PM, Opie said:

Any one know if there is a height that Val will stop growing at?

I'm sure it has a height limit, but it's pretty far up there.  I have corkscrew val, which as I understand it doesn't get as tall as the regular val, and it reaches the top of my 65 gallon tank and then lays over, so it's probably 36" or more. 

[Rube_Goldfish]

On 11/7/2023 at 9:48 AM, JettsPapa said:

I'm sure it has a height limit, but it's pretty far up there.  I have corkscrew val, which as I understand it doesn't get as tall as the regular val, and it reaches the top of my 65 gallon tank and then lays over, so it's probably 36" or more. 

Haha, I just bought some corkscrew val for a 20 long from my LFS specifically because "it doesn't get as tall as the regular val"! So far it's still adjusting, but seeing what you said here, I might end up moving it to my 55 gallon... guess we'll see!

[Tanked]

Vallisneria continues to frustrate me.  Jungle Val was my first plant when I decided to try live plants again.  It put out 5 runners, but never got more than a few inches tall.  It took 2 years to kill it.  I'm on my second go round with Italian Val.  Upgrading the lighting, and fertilization hasn't helped.  The IV puts out some runners and so far, that is all it has done.  The new plants have all shown up in the front corner of the tank, but they are not growing.  I assume direct sunlight has something to do with that location.   I'm contemplating  cutting off one of the runners and putting back where I want it to grow.

The crypts on the other hand, have an algae problem, have never melted and are looking pretty good otherwise.

[Kit Craft]

On 11/22/2023 at 12:20 PM, Tanked said:

Vallisneria continues to frustrate me.  Jungle Val was my first plant when I decided to try live plants again.  It put out 5 runners, but never got more than a few inches tall.  It took 2 years to kill it.  I'm on my second go round with Italian Val.  Upgrading the lighting, and fertilization hasn't helped.  The IV puts out some runners and so far, that is all it has done.  The new plants have all shown up in the front corner of the tank, but they are not growing.  I assume direct sunlight has something to do with that location.   I'm contemplating  cutting off one of the runners and putting back where I want it to grow.

The crypts on the other hand, have an algae problem, have never melted and are looking pretty good otherwise.

That is so weird. Val. is the only plant I haven't had trouble with. I put it in the tank, it spreads and grows. I think I got around a dozen new growths last week and the ones from the week before are doubled in size (about 4 inches atm). I'd say I have medium-low light. An Aqueon Planted Clip-on, on a 10-gallon tank with a 6-inch riser so it is about 10 inches off the water total. 6 hours of light a day. I think mine is Val. "Italian". Also, I have about an inch of "dirt" under the sand. It is really just a mix of coco peat, sand, sphagnum and worm castings. Plus, a dose of easy green and a heavy snail bio load. 

How long have you had it? Mine looked like it was going to die off for the first month, took a month to recover, and then started to grow like a weed after. 

My Dwarf Sag is finally starting to bounce back 2 months later. Bacopa, no dice. Out of two pots I have three stems alive. In my no light tank of all places. My Salvinia is like a disease, it won't stop growing. Java moss is hit and miss. What I got from Cory is doing great! I got some from another source and it isn't doing well at all. 

Anyway, I have non fert no light jars where my plants grow better than my lighted, dosed tanks...It is a mystery to me. But Val. hasn't been an issue yet. 

[Tanked]

On 11/22/2023 at 12:43 PM, Kit Craft said:

That is so weird. Val. is the only plant I haven't had trouble with. I put it in the tank, it spreads and grows. I think I got around a dozen new growths last week and the ones from the week before are doubled in size (about 4 inches atm). I'd say I have medium-low light. An Aqueon Planted Clip-on, on a 10-gallon tank with a 6-inch riser so it is about 10 inches off the water total. 6 hours of light a day. I think mine is Val. "Italian". Also, I have about an inch of "dirt" under the sand. It is really just a mix of coco peat, sand, sphagnum and worm castings. Plus, a dose of easy green and a heavy snail bio load. 

How long have you had it? Mine looked like it was going to die off for the first month, took a month to recover, and then started to grow like a weed after. 

My Dwarf Sag is finally starting to bounce back 2 months later. Bacopa, no dice. Out of two pots I have three stems alive. In my no light tank of all places. My Salvinia is like a disease, it won't stop growing. Java moss is hit and miss. What I got from Cory is doing great! I got some from another source and it isn't doing well at all. 

Anyway, I have non fert no light jars where my plants grow better than my lighted, dosed tanks...It is a mystery to me. But Val. hasn't been an issue yet. 

I just checked my notes. My first plants were Jungle Val, Dwarf Sag, and Anubia Nana.  Only the Anubia survived.   This is actually my third attempt at Italian Val.  This one was purchased July 3rd.  Planted in the middle ground, directly under the light it should have been happy to stay there. The new runners have come up so close to the front glass that I can't scrape off the algae.

[Kit Craft]

On 11/22/2023 at 1:15 PM, Tanked said:

I just checked my notes. My first plants were Jungle Val, Dwarf Sag, and Anubia Nana.  Only the Anubia survived.   This is actually my third attempt at Italian Val.  This one was purchased July 3rd.  Planted in the middle ground, directly under the light it should have been happy to stay there. The new runners have come up so close to the front glass that I can't scrape off the algae.

It is weird how things seem to work differently for everybody. I have a hard time with low tech plants like Java Fern and Anubias. 

[JE47]

@Tanked I have had similar experience with val it refuses to grow and remains small similarly my dwarf sag sends out runners for new plants but doesn't look good. I cannot for the life of me figure out the problem which is frustrating sometimes when they are touted to be beginner friendly. I have had good success with Rotala Rotundifolia green, and java fern though.

[JoeQ]

Check out micro swords! It propagates with runners like val but stays about 4~6 inches tall. I also find it grows quicker than dwarf chain sword or dwarf sag! 

 

Edited November 23, 2023 by JoeQ

[Kit Craft]

On 11/22/2023 at 7:25 PM, JoeQ said:

Check out micro swords! It propagates with runners like val but stays about 4~6 inches tall. I also find it grows quicker than dwarf chain sword or dwarf sag! 

 

Thank you I will give it a go. It is funny, I've seen others say the opposite. That micro sword was hard for them to grow. I find this sort of thing fascinating. 

[JoeQ]

On 11/22/2023 at 7:51 PM, Kit Craft said:

Thank you I will give it a go. It is funny, I've seen others say the opposite. That micro sword was hard for them to grow. I find this sort of thing fascinating. 

Im starting to think water hardness is a huge part of that, my water (i think) has become extremely soft over time, I remember growing val no problem...... Now it barely survives in my main tank, along with money wort! I put both in my 15g (which im trying to make a hard water tank) and have seen more growth than I have in months! 

Edited November 23, 2023 by JoeQ

[JoeQ]

This should be Italian val with new growth

 

[Kit Craft]

On 11/22/2023 at 7:58 PM, JoeQ said:

Im starting to think water hardness is a huge part of that, my water (i think) has become extremely soft over time, I remember growing val no problem...... Now it barely survives in my main tank, along with money wort! I put both in my 15g (which im trying to make a hard water tank) and have seen more growth than I have in months! 

My water is pretty hard. My test strips max out GH 300+ ppm. KH is around 180, last I checked. 7.8(ish) PH depending on the tank in question. My Val. is going crazy! I have it sprouting up all over the tank. I can't wait to have a Val. jungle. The video Cory did on Val. is what made me get plants to begin with.

[Tanked]

On 11/22/2023 at 7:18 PM, JE47 said:

@Tanked I have had similar experience with val it refuses to grow and remains small similarly my dwarf sag sends out runners for new plants but doesn't look good. I cannot for the life of me figure out the problem which is frustrating sometimes when they are touted to be beginner friendly. I have had good success with Rotala Rotundifolia green, and java fern though.

So far I've only killed 17 beginner friendly plants.  I've also brought 3 back from the brink.  I bought the ACO light as soon as it became available, thinking that my DIY light systems were the problem.  Nope!   None of my plants grow the way they are supposed to.   That is why I keep trying to grow them. 

@JoeQ That is what my Italian Val runners look like but they aren't growing. I have a 3 year old Amazon Sword that I suspect is actually a Dwarf Chain or Micro sword.  It isn't growing either.  Last week I moved it to the project tank. The lower light and 16 hour day sometimes gets results.

@Kit Craft My Gh is 290+, Kh is 50+- but my Ph is 6.6.  I don't know if higher Ph is the answer for growing Vals.

 

I'm in week #2 of my variation of Bentley Pascoe's lean dosing plan.  Instead of dosing 3 or 4 pumps of Easy Green once a week, I'm adding 1 pump every other day.  It's too soon to tell what this will accomplish with the plants, but I may be seeing a slight reduction in algae.  ...or it might just be wishful thinking!

[Macready]

On 11/22/2023 at 12:20 PM, Tanked said:

Vallisneria continues to frustrate me.  Jungle Val was my first plant when I decided to try live plants again.  It put out 5 runners, but never got more than a few inches tall.

Upgrading the lighting, and fertilization hasn't helped. 

This has been my experience with val as well. All sorts or runners, only grows about 2 inches high. I tried some root tabs under a couple of them and no luck, I dose Easy Green weekly.  I can't figure out if they are getting too much light (which I doubt because the light isn't that bright) or not enough light, but I'm afraid to increase the intensity of the light too much, every thing else seems to grow fine or at least well enough.

I gave up and put a Red Flame Sword where I wanted to val to grow instead. Just left the little val's in place. 
PH 7.5 / GH 8 / KH 4 / Temp 76 f / 10.5 hours of light a day, 4 hour siesta.