Cycling attempt failing - old, reused gravel possibly to blame?

[HoosierJeff]

Hi, folks.

I'm three weeks into attempting to cycle a new tank, and it isn't going as intended at all. (The only critters in the tank are a couple pest snails that hitch-hiked in on the plants.)

I used old gravel in this new tank (not at all as a source of beneficial bacteria; just because it was lying around and already paid for.) The gravel came out of an established tank a few months ago and laid on a towel in the sun for several days to dry before being stored in a closed bag in the garage. Before putting it in the new tank, I thoroughly rinsed it off bit by bit in a strainer (with tap water) then added it to the new tank. When I filled the tank, there was no cloudiness or floating debris/detritus, which told me the gravel was good and clean.

I am using a new filter, but seeded it with some filter media from an established tank, as well as attempting to kick start things with both Stability and Fritz 7 (whatever it is actually called), and using Prime to condition the tap water. There are live plants in the tank (fairly heavily planted), so I added some Easy Green to further feed the cycle and provide some nutrients for the plants as they got established.

I let things run for about 10 days, then tested the water. 0 ppm on ammonia, but both nitrites and nitrates completely spiked on the Aquarium Co-op test strips as soon as I inserted them in the water. I mean instant dark pink as soon as the water touched them. Did an 80ish% water change and tested immediately after...same result. Added more Prime and Stability and gave it a few days. Tested again, and again, same instant spike on nitrite and nitrate, but trace amounts of ammonia this time. Did a large water change...same result when I tested after the water change. Added more Prime and Stability. Waited a week or so, tested again...same exact result (instant spike on nitrite/nitrate, and trace amounts of ammonia.) Did a water change, tested again. Same results. Waited a few more days and tested again...same results. (FWIW, I've been using that same set of test strips on my other tanks and they're reading normal, so don't think it is bad test strips.)

This is my fifth tank (MTS is real!!), and the others all cycled as expected. The only difference I can think of this time around is the re-used gravel, which has me wondering if I imported a bunch of something or another that is causing me so much hassle. 

If I break it down to re-clean the gravel, how would you suggest I go about cleaning it to make sure it isn't the cause of the problems?

Thank you!

Jeff

Edited September 25, 2023 by HoosierJeff

[gardenman]

If your nitrites and nitrates are spiking immediately after a large 80% water change, I'd test your tap water. I suspect that's the source of your problems. If your tap water is good, you shouldn't see a spike immediately after an 80% change.

[HoosierJeff]

On 9/25/2023 at 5:00 PM, Pepere said:

I would clean a filter or two from one of them and pour the filter squeezings in the new tank….  That is the most reliable and quickest way I have cycled a new tank…

Great idea. Thank you!

[HoosierJeff]

On 9/25/2023 at 6:44 PM, gardenman said:

If your nitrites and nitrates are spiking immediately after a large 80% water change, I'd test your tap water. I suspect that's the source of your problems. If your tap water is good, you shouldn't see a spike immediately after an 80% change.

Thanks for the reply!

I didn’t think it was tap water because I have no such issues with my other tanks, but checked on your request, and, straight tap water has no measurable nitrite or nitrate on Aquarium Co-op’s test strips.

Have any other suggestions?

[Galabar]

Also, I would lay off of the water changes.  Just let things run and wait for the ammonia and nitrite to both hit 0.

 

[nabokovfan87]

On 9/25/2023 at 1:36 PM, HoosierJeff said:

I am using a new filter, but seeded it with some filter media from an established tank, as well as attempting to kick start things with both Stability and Fritz 7 (whatever it is actually called), and using Prime to condition the tap water. There are live plants in the tank (fairly heavily planted), so I added some Easy Green to further feed the cycle and provide some nutrients for the plants as they got established.

Just an FYI.... I've seen reports of some people who would have the knowledge to say this, that if you're using multiple bacteria sources, one of them can simply out compete the other.  Given certain parameters like PH, the live version of the fritz bacteria may not do a whole lot.  They do have a version that is much more similar to seachem's stability product.  I would suggest using one only and I would suggest following the directions for dosing off of the seachem stability side of things as opposed to the fritz packaging.  (One big dose on day 1, then normal doses for 7 days)

That being said, I don't think gravel or bacteria is to blame here, so let's dive in.  What is the actual filtration you're running and what is the media setup in that filtration.  (photos help a ton here)
 

 

On 9/25/2023 at 1:36 PM, HoosierJeff said:

I let things run for about 10 days, then tested the water. 0 ppm on ammonia, but both nitrites and nitrates completely spiked on the Aquarium Co-op test strips as soon as I inserted them in the water. I mean instant dark pink as soon as the water touched them. Did an 80ish% water change and tested immediately after...same result. Added more Prime and Stability and gave it a few days. Tested again, and again, same instant spike on nitrite and nitrate, but trace amounts of ammonia this time. Did a large water change...same result when I tested after the water change. Added more Prime and Stability. Waited a week or so, tested again...same exact result (instant spike on nitrite/nitrate, and trace amounts of ammonia.) Did a water change, tested again. Same results. Waited a few more days and tested again...same results. (FWIW, I've been using that same set of test strips on my other tanks and they're reading normal, so don't think it is bad test strips.)

It's definitely a unique situation and I am not sure why or what's going on.  If I had to guess, I think there's a combination of things, but most importantly something is leeching into the tank.

I would start by testing your tap water.  I would ensure that you're not getting ammonia from chloramines and that you're not getting nitrates from the tap.  As mentioned, you did this, and it was a big goose egg. 😞

That's a wonderful thing though because it means we can isolate everything to something inside the tank.

The common things here would be substrate (active soil leeching) or snails.  Is there anything like that going on?  Maybe some snails got brought into the tank via the other filtration?

Last but not least, I don't think rocks leech ammonia, but I have heard of gravel leeching/raising ammonia.  This could be due to things in (or on) the rock/gravel and it may just be a matter of doing a ton of water changes. 

The only think you really should or need to do, is to do daily water changes as large of water volume as you can.  There is only plants in the system, they will actually be fine with larger water changes as long as they stay wet.  Daily 50-80% water changes would be my go to right now.  Before you do any water changes, disturb the substrate with your hand and see if there is a lot of debris that ends up in the water column.  Move things around, try to find that ammonia source, and just change water until things stabilize.

For 1-2 weeks I would stop dosing in any of your bacteria product and I would simply focus on water changes, dechlorinator, and trying to observe test results.  Take a water sample to the LFS to verify the ammonia, nitrite, and nitrate levels.  Consider grabbing a KH / GH liquid test kit to verify what your parameters are as well.

It'll sort itself out, right now, just a bit of patience and see what's going on.
 

[Chick-In-Of-TheSea]

On 9/25/2023 at 5:00 PM, Pepere said:

I would clean a filter or two from one of them and pour the filter squeezings in the new tank….

I use Fritz Zyme 7 in new tanks, whether I'm using used filter media or new; just to get a coating of bb on the substrate and objects. But squeezing an established filter as @Pepere suggested will accomplish the same thing.

[HoosierJeff]

On 9/25/2023 at 10:49 PM, Galabar said:

Also, I would lay off of the water changes.  Just let things run and wait for the ammonia and nitrite to both hit 0.

 

You're right. Patience is so hard for this! Will do. Thanks again for chiming in.

[HoosierJeff]

On 9/26/2023 at 12:44 AM, nabokovfan87 said:

Just an FYI.... I've seen reports of some people who would have the knowledge to say this, that if you're using multiple bacteria sources, one of them can simply out compete the other.

I would suggest using one only and I would suggest following the directions for dosing off of the seachem stability side of things as opposed to the fritz packaging.  (One big dose on day 1, then normal doses for 7 days)

 

It's definitely a unique situation and I am not sure why or what's going on.  If I had to guess, I think there's a combination of things, but most importantly something is leeching into the tank.

I would start by testing your tap water.  I would ensure that you're not getting ammonia from chloramines and that you're not getting nitrates from the tap.  As mentioned, you did this, and it was a big goose egg. 😞

That's a wonderful thing though because it means we can isolate everything to something inside the tank.

The common things here would be substrate (active soil leeching) or snails.  Is there anything like that going on?  Maybe some snails got brought into the tank via the other filtration?
 

Thanks for the thorough reply, @nabokovfan87 !

I started with the Fritz, and after a couple water changes with such weird results, switched to Stability. I'll lay off these for now and focus on the water changes as you said.

It is just a five gallon tank that will be heavily planted and lightly stocked, so I'm using an Oase BioCompact 50. I am using the coarse sponge it came with on the left, and Seachem matrix in both "pill boxes" on the right. I started things out with a pile of biorings from an established tank in there for the first couple weeks, but have since removed them. My intent is to leave the tank animal-free until it is fully and properly cycled. Except for a three small pest snails that snuck in with the plants. I was surprised to see them listed as a possible culprit in your reply. Should I remove them? 

And, it is proper aquarium gravel I'm using. The natural river stone style, purchased from my LFS (although I don't recall the brand.) I had no issues when it was new and went into a previous tank, but this fiasco has me wondering if there was detritus or bacteria left on it that is somehow messing with things.

Again, thanks for your input. I appreciate any further insights, and will reply with updates along the way.

[nabokovfan87]

On 9/26/2023 at 6:48 AM, HoosierJeff said:

so I'm using an Oase BioCompact 50.

I had a look at the filter.  It seems really undersized.  It could just be a scale thing or due to the way the photos look.  I also tend to over filter my tanks a bit just for stability sake.  Either way, maybe this is the first time you've used this particular filter and that speaks to the issues you've experienced?  In terms of circulation and flow, how is the pump working for you with this particular setup?

Just in terms of media, how do you think it compares to something like this... https://store.oase-usa.com/collections/aquarium-filters/products/oase-filtosmart-60

[Ben P.]

I'm gonna tell you exactly what I do and maybe this will help.  Stop testing and stop adding things.  Just let it sit.  Nitrates are not actually proven to be harmful (yes I know there is differing opinions on this) so paying attention to them tends to be just something you chase for no real reason.  Also adding easy green for me has been nothing but a complete mess, always causes a major algae bloom so I don't use it anymore and have found my plants do just fine, granted mine are not heavily planted.  Also I find large water changes to be nothing but a net negative.  The only time I test for anything anymore is just to test for ph and tds.  Your fish will tell you if you need to change water.  Also just pull some filter media out of a running tank and you won't have any problems.  I'm not saying to not care about your tanks, I'm telling you that testing for me just causes me to chase my tail.  Do a semi weekly roughly 15 percent water change and if you're still having issues, your stocking is probably pretty imbalanced.  I ascribe to a similar theory to what Cory says on some of his videos is that nature will do what nature does and finds a way.  What that means to me is that adding all these different chemicals and supplements for your water is probably not helping.  Best of luck

Edited September 27, 2023 by Ben P.

[HoosierJeff]

On 9/26/2023 at 6:53 PM, nabokovfan87 said:

I had a look at the filter.  It seems really undersized.  It could just be a scale thing or due to the way the photos look.  I also tend to over filter my tanks a bit just for stability sake.  Either way, maybe this is the first time you've used this particular filter and that speaks to the issues you've experienced?  In terms of circulation and flow, how is the pump working for you with this particular setup?

Just in terms of media, how do you think it compares to something like this... https://store.oase-usa.com/collections/aquarium-filters/products/oase-filtosmart-60

@nabokovfan87 it is my first time with the filter, and it is small. For a 5 gallon tank that will be lightly stocked, I think it’ll be sufficient. I can add a small sponge filter if needed down the road, but I like the flow the BioCompact adds to keep things from getting stagnant. There’s no livestock in it yet. 
 

The smallness of the filter will limit what I can stock, but so does the smallness of the tank in my mind. What’s got me scratching my head is the nitrate/nitrite spike even immediately after a water change. 

On 9/26/2023 at 9:29 PM, Ben P. said:

I'm gonna tell you exactly what I do and maybe this will help.  Stop testing and stop adding things.  Just let it sit.  Nitrates are not actually proven to be harmful (yes I know there is differing opinions on this) so paying attention to them tends to be just something you chase for no real reason.  Also adding easy green for me has been nothing but a complete mess, always causes a major algae bloom so I don't use it anymore and have found my plants do just fine, granted mine are not heavily planted.  Also I find large water changes to be nothing but a net negative.  The only time I test for anything anymore is just to test for ph and tds.  Your fish will tell you if you need to change water.  Also just pull some filter media out of a running tank and you won't have any problems.  I'm not saying to not care about your tanks, I'm telling you that testing for me just causes me to chase my tail.  Do a semi weekly roughly 15 percent water change and if you're still having issues, your stocking is probably pretty imbalanced.  I ascribe to a similar theory to what Cory says on some of his videos is that nature will do what nature does and finds a way.  What that means to me is that adding all these different chemicals and supplements for your water is probably not helping.  Best of luck

Thanks, @Ben P.. I appreciate your input and sharing your perspective. I have a heavily planted 20 gallon that mostly runs on auto pilot these days. The balance is just perfect, and it is a joy to sit and enjoy.

i know smaller tanks are harder to balance out, and I’m looking forward to figuring out what “balanced” looks like for this one.

thanks again for your perspective…refreshing and encouraging for sure.

[Ben P.]

@HoosierJeff I hope that didn't come off as rude because it definitely wasn't meant to be, my 3 month old was not allowing me to be overly articulate 😂

[nabokovfan87]

On 9/26/2023 at 6:29 PM, Ben P. said:

Nitrates are not actually proven to be harmful (yes I know there is differing opinions on this) so paying attention to them tends to be just something you chase for no real reason. 

There are plenty of studies about the impact of nitrates on livestock in aquaculture.  Nitrate levels do matter and there is an acceptable threshold for things.  That being said, I understand the intent behind what you were saying.  Sometimes we just do too much and try for too many things.
 

On 9/26/2023 at 6:47 PM, HoosierJeff said:

@nabokovfan87 it is my first time with the filter, and it is small. For a 5 gallon tank that will be lightly stocked, I think it’ll be sufficient. I can add a small sponge filter if needed down the road, but I like the flow the BioCompact adds to keep things from getting stagnant. There’s no livestock in it yet. 
 

The smallness of the filter will limit what I can stock, but so does the smallness of the tank in my mind. What’s got me scratching my head is the nitrate/nitrite spike even immediately after a water change. 

I think in terms of media, maybe it's sufficient for nano setups.  For something like a 5-10G tank it's tough.  If you continue to see issues then I would consider finding a way to add more biologicals.  One of my favorite ways is with porous rock in the hardscape (lava rock).

[HoosierJeff]

On 9/27/2023 at 3:17 AM, nabokovfan87 said:

I think in terms of media, maybe it's sufficient for nano setups.  For something like a 5-10G tank it's tough.  If you continue to see issues then I would consider finding a way to add more biologicals.  One of my favorite ways is with porous rock in the hardscape (lava rock).

Update: on Wednesday I did three 80% water changes back to back to get down to 0ppm of ammonia, nitrite, and nitrite. Then I squeezed a sponge from an established tank and added some fish food and an algae wafer to continue providing ammonia for the beneficial bacteria to work on. 
 

Tested the water today: no measurable ammonia, and INSTANT dark pink for both nitrite and nitrate (sorry…forgot the values and don’t have the test kit handy). 
 

I haven’t added anymore chemicals other than Prime to the water during the water changes. The only other variable I can think of is there is a grid of 8 Aquarium Co-op root tabs in the gravel under the plants.

attaching a picture of the tank in question. The Val and stem plants are all propagated from my other tanks. (I’m unsure how those stem plants are going to do…)

I appreciate any continued input or advice!

[nabokovfan87]

On 9/29/2023 at 7:16 PM, HoosierJeff said:

The only other variable I can think of is there is a grid of 8 Aquarium Co-op root tabs in the gravel under the plants.

Ah. That might explain the leeching then. Maybe too many or they weren't deep enough?

If you continue to see ammonia or nitrite, I would look at filtration.

I love the simplicity and beautiful aesthetic. Very nice job on the tank.

[HoosierJeff]

On 9/30/2023 at 12:30 AM, nabokovfan87 said:

Ah. That might explain the leeching then. Maybe too many or they weren't deep enough?

If you continue to see ammonia or nitrite, I would look at filtration.

I love the simplicity and beautiful aesthetic. Very nice job on the tank.

Thanks! I love the look of this tank, too. Can't wait for it to be fish-safe.

I'm not sure what to do about the root tabs. They're needed, and I suppose I could add some more gravel, but its still a pretty loose gravel that is going to allow a lot of leaching. (My other tanks have only sand, which traps the root tabs in much better...when they don't pop up to the surface.)

Thanks for your input. I'll give it more time and see what comes of it.

[Tanked]

I really like the simple setup. Unfortunately I don't seem to be able to grow JV. Your gravel is a lot coarser than I usually see, and probably does explain the leeching.  You might be able to cap with some finer gravel in areas where you use the root tabs.   

[nabokovfan87]

On 9/30/2023 at 6:27 AM, HoosierJeff said:

I'm not sure what to do about the root tabs. They're needed,

It might just be a matter or using a different brand.

[HoosierJeff]

On 9/30/2023 at 12:51 PM, nabokovfan87 said:

It might just be a matter or using a different brand.

I've wondered. I want to try some Seachem Flourish Tabs; they don't seem as problematic when it comes to rising above the substrate and releasing their contents straight into the water column. 

Have another suggestion?

[nabokovfan87]

I've used a few other ones, I pretty much stick to the flourish tabs for my use. They have "more stuff" in them compared to others that might just be NPK tabs. I generally have an easier time using them compared to the capsule style ones.

[Flipper]

On 9/30/2023 at 8:27 AM, HoosierJeff said:

Thanks! I love the look of this tank, too. Can't wait for it to be fish-safe.

Bless your heart!  I love the look of your tank, too.  I know you're frustrated, as I would be.  I hope things will normalize for you real soon.  I wish I knew something that would help.  Strange situation 🤔

[HoosierJeff]

On 9/30/2023 at 3:37 PM, Flipper said:

Bless your heart!  I love the look of your tank, too.  I know you're frustrated, as I would be.  I hope things will normalize for you real soon.  I wish I knew something that would help.  Strange situation 🤔

Thank you, @Flipper! I really appreciate the encouragement!

[HoosierJeff]

Well, folks. I found the culprit: it was the metal plate I attached to my filter so I could use magnets to hold the filter in place (magnets on a metal plate on the outside of the tank holding the filter on the inside of the tank.) Whether it was something in the finish of the metal plate or the 3M adhesive tape that was on the metal plate, removing those solved the problem 100%. It’s been about a month since I identified the problem. After a couple water changes and monitoring water parameters, I confirmed all was well and added a few guppies. Love the tank! 

I wanted to report back since you all were so helpful when I was trying to figure it out. (I am also going to update my post about the magnetic mount idea with how terrible it turned out.)

[Galabar]

Interestingly, this document from 3M mentions nitrite and nitrate for their various products: file:///Users/kevin.regan/Downloads/multimedia.pdf

However, I'm not sure exactly what they are trying to say...

You could try soaking the tape in tap water for a while and then testing it... 🙂

Edited November 18, 2023 by Galabar