Gender-nonconforming betta really wants to be a mom/dad?

[Epiphanaea]

My female betta has released eggs a couple times, and keeps a small bubble nest as a matter of routine, but this time she’s made a huge bubble nest and actually put the eggs in it and is tending them.  
 

I know they won’t hatch, barring her being the first ever example of parthenogenesis in a betta, but I hate to take them out and destroy her nest, that just sounds so traumatic for her.  (For personal reasons off-topic for this forum, this is really doing my head in).  Will she lose interest when they don’t hatch in a few days?  If I take her out of the tank before removing the nest, would that be better?  
 

I’m debating breeding her, even though she’s just a random Petco fish - I’d order a male from a breeder to be sure of no inbreeding, and outcrosses tend to be healthier, right?  Fresh blood and all that?  She does have some desirable traits phenotype-wise.  But I’m worried the male might kill her - and besides that, it seems like she wants to brood and raise babies, which the male wouldn’t let her do anyway, unless maybe I could re-divide a breeder tank after mating and let them each raise some?  (Or maybe she wouldn’t even want to in the presence of a male).  

I actually looked up whether you can buy betta sperm (it’s a thing for horses!). Not that I can find.  
 

I don’t even know what my question is here, LOL - how do I help my girl accept not being a parent?  Does she need a fishy therapist? (Not serious on that one, in case that wasn’t obvious).  
 

The little headache herself: 

 

 

 

 

Edited September 15, 2023 by Epiphanaea

[Guppysnail]

I thought your topic was interesting. Out of curiosity I went web surfing. I found this article that says if you remove the nest she will just build another. Not to much more information though. 
 

https://badmanstropicalfish.com/do-female-bettas-make-bubble-nests/#:~:text=If you see a female,because the male is absent.

[Epiphanaea]

Well, after a couple days the eggs disappeared, so I think she figured out they weren’t fertilized and ate them.  She’s let the nest go, and seems back to her usual self.

. . . I may still be considering that it’d be really cool to breed betta imbellis hybrids.  Just need to figure out where to put a breeding tank.  How weird would a tank over the toilet be?  Asking for a friend . . .

[Odd Duck]

If Masterbreeder Dean has one in the bathroom, you can, too!

I have tiny shrimp tank on the bathroom counter.

[Epiphanaea]

Oh, this girl already lives in the bathroom - this would be *another* one.

[Epiphanaea]

Another nest has come and gone since last posting, and she has one active now.  
 

I am a little concerned about her becoming nutrient-deficient if she keeps this up, but so far she’s active as ever, color is good, and if anything she’s a little chubby (though that could be yet more eggs - but she has a good top down silhouette, no appearance of having swallowed a marble).

 

If anybody here is actually trying to cause egg production on purpose, she’s eating mostly Fluval BugBites betta granules, with occasional mysis shrimp. Tried bloodworms for the first time not too long ago but they’re not a staple.  I’m guessing she likely has snail eggs / newly hatched snails, too, because there’s a ramshorn snail and a couple bladder snails in there and they haven’t turned into a million of them.  I did offer her bladder snail eggs from another tank, and she ate them but seemed frustrated with getting the edible bits out of the gel, they weren’t a big hit, but maybe that’s easier if the blob of eggs is attached to something?  
 

She’s in a 5g with lots of almond leaves, wood, some buce that hasn’t really taken off, ferns, red root floaters, a “banana” lotus, and as of a couple days ago a small water lettuce.  Water is the color of weak tea.  Has a smallish full spectrum bar light at one end of the tank, the other end faces a window that is always uncovered.  She’s getting about 14 hours of light.  Filter is a small submersible.

No heater at the moment, though I’m going to have to figure that out soon.  The tank is in the bathroom, I keep the door closed, no air conditioning, so it’s hot and humid in there all summer.  It’s gotten cooler the last couple days, especially overnight.  But there would have been a temperature gradient over the course of 24 hours, even when it was hot.  
 

~40% water change roughly once a week, mostly to keep the tannins from getting so intense I can’t see anything.  I use Prime to condition tap water.  Substrate is a combo of all-purpose sand, fluval black sand, and crushed fluval stratum - heavy on the all-purpose sand.  
 

No idea if that’s helpful to anybody, but there you go.  

 

 

[Epiphanaea]

She’s still at it, but the nests are getting kinda sad.  I think she’s caught on that this is a fruitless endeavor.  

Meanwhile I’m wavering between ordering a hybrid male by mail, vs just getting one with hybrid traits locally - mail all the way from *Thailand* makes me nervous.  My local privately-owned fish stores are not great for bettas, while a couple of the big P locations have fish-knowledgeable staff and healthy-looking bettas.  It’s a dilemma.

[Chick-In-Of-TheSea]

Do you do anything beside almond leaves to create tannins @Epiphanaea?  I like how dark yours look.  Mine never look that dark.  I've been adding IAL tea but it seems to just clear up right away.

[SkaleyAquatics]

On 10/12/2023 at 10:34 AM, Chick-In-Of-TheSea said:

Do you do anything beside almond leaves to create tannins @Epiphanaea?  I like how dark yours look.  Mine never look that dark.  I've been adding IAL tea but it seems to just clear up right away.

why not just add indian almond leaves to the tank? Almost all my wild type bettas, macropodus and parosphromenus get them in there tank. Some get more botanicals to increase tannins. The parosphromenus tank was nearly black with very little light penetration for a little while when they came in.  

[Chick-In-Of-TheSea]

On 10/12/2023 at 11:12 AM, SkaleyAquatics said:

why not just add indian almond leaves to the tank? Almost all my wild type bettas, macropodus and parosphromenus get them in there tank. Some get more botanicals to increase tannins. The parosphromenus tank was nearly black with very little light penetration for a little while when they came in.  

Well, because they turn to dust.

[Epiphanaea]

On 10/12/2023 at 10:34 AM, Chick-In-Of-TheSea said:

Do you do anything beside almond leaves to create tannins @Epiphanaea?  I like how dark yours look.  Mine never look that dark.  I've been adding IAL tea but it seems to just clear up right away.

Lots of almond leaves, like a partial carpet of them, and driftwood.  

[SkaleyAquatics]

On 10/12/2023 at 4:59 PM, Chick-In-Of-TheSea said:

Well, because they turn to dust.

I do not see how this is a problem but to each there own.

[Chick-In-Of-TheSea]

On 10/13/2023 at 6:19 AM, SkaleyAquatics said:

I do not see how this is a problem but to each there own.

I just don't like little clouds of dust kicking up whenever the fish swims along the bottom.  

[Epiphanaea]

On 10/13/2023 at 8:23 AM, Chick-In-Of-TheSea said:

I just don't like little clouds of dust kicking up whenever the fish swims along the bottom.  

The solution is enough plants that you can’t tell, along with siphoning up during water charges.

[Cinnebuns]

Wow. This is super interesting behavior I've never heard of before. 

[Chick-In-Of-TheSea]

On 10/13/2023 at 6:29 PM, Epiphanaea said:

The solution is enough plants that you can’t tell, along with siphoning up during water charges.

Come to think of it, my bad experience with leaves was mainly in a shrimp tank, where I couldn’t siphon because there were always shrimplets. Should work fine in the betta tank. In the meantime I put a rooibos tea bag in overnight. Here is before & after.

 

There are a bunch of new crypts in there; I’m waiting for them to fill out the tank. They get easy green and root tabs.

Edited October 14, 2023 by Chick-In-Of-TheSea

[Chick-In-Of-TheSea]

Ok guys I did it. Put some leaves again. I had a bunch of my freezer. That’s where I put them after I boil them for tea, then later I feed to shrimps. Geppetto is really really happy @SkaleyAquatics @Epiphanaea 

 

 

ok now back to the original topic 😌

Edited October 14, 2023 by Chick-In-Of-TheSea

[Epiphanaea]

Aww, look at his little face sticking out!

You know, the freezing may be contributing to the rapid breakdown.  
 

[Chick-In-Of-TheSea]

On 10/14/2023 at 10:40 AM, Epiphanaea said:

Aww, look at his little face sticking out!

You know, the freezing may be contributing to the rapid breakdown.  
 

The ones I had used previously in tanks had not been frozen. I plan to check these each week to see how long they truly last.

Edited October 15, 2023 by Chick-In-Of-TheSea

[Epiphanaea]

She’s actually guarding a nest again.  
 

On further thought and research (and finding an amazing semi-local store that has wild betta species), I think I will not go that route for a first try.  
 

New plan!  Mirabelle gets a *betta splendens* paramour, I only keep a small number of eggs (still pondering how to accomplish this, but I don’t want to cull fry unless I must for deformities - I’m think maybe a grate at the bottom so only a small number of eggs get picked up for brooding?), with the plan to keep the girls for a sorority, and maybe sell / adopt out the males.  
 

Assuming this is not a disaster, I then want to try, separately, breeding one of the endangered species.  I don’t think it would be responsible to snap up a breeding pair when I’ve never bred before, so, Mirabelle who is so eager to be a mom will be practice for breeding her wild distant cousins.

 

Does anybody with experience know what sort of survival rate I should expect in the fry?  Would 30-ish eggs yield me 10-15 adults, or would it be far fewer, on average?

Edited October 15, 2023 by Epiphanaea

[Chick-In-Of-TheSea]

On 10/15/2023 at 11:34 AM, Epiphanaea said:

Does anybody with experience know what sort of survival rate I should expect in the fry?  Would 30-ish eggs yield me 10-15 adults, or would it be far fewer, on average?

Maybe @TheSwissAquarist or @Fish Folk can help with hatch rate of bettas?  Or @Goldie BlueOr @Odd Duck

Edited October 15, 2023 by Chick-In-Of-TheSea

[Fish Folk]

On 10/15/2023 at 11:34 AM, Epiphanaea said:

Does anybody with experience know what sort of survival rate I should expect in the fry?  Would 30-ish eggs yield me 10-15 adults, or would it be far fewer, on average?

Female Betta splendens will be ready to spawn on a regular cycle if they are well fed and cared for. If fed a rich varied diet of live foods, females can release HUNDREDS of eggs per spawn.

I leave a light on for 48-72 hrs to let a pair spawn. Then the female comes out. Male guards until I can see free-swimming fry, then he comes out. I never keep them in a tank much deeper than 6-inches of water.

Anabantid fry must develop their labyrinth organ to survive. You’ll have hundreds… then they’ll all mysteriously crash. Micro nematodes like Banana worms, Walter Worms, or Micro Worms are excellent early goods. Artemia nauplii (BBS) are staple too. If you can get them past 2-weeks, your chances are very good!

[TheSwissAquarist]

On 10/15/2023 at 6:46 PM, Fish Folk said:

Female Betta splendens will be ready to spawn on a regular cycle if they are well fed and cared for. If fed a rich varied diet of live foods, females can release HUNDREDS of eggs per spawn.

I leave a light on for 48-72 hrs to let a pair spawn. Then the female comes out. Male guards until I can see free-swimming fry, then he comes out. I never keep them in a tank much deeper than 6-inches of water.

Anabantid fry must develop their labyrinth organ to survive. You’ll have hundreds… then they’ll all mysteriously crash. Micro nematodes like Banana worms, Walter Worms, or Micro Worms are excellent early goods. Artemia nauplii (BBS) are staple too. If you can get them past 2-weeks, your chances are very good!

What he said. 😂

Survival rate tend to depend on the breathing organ development (and other things). Make sure that you have a lid on the tank so that the fry can breathe warm air instead of cold air that kills them. Hence @Fish Folks “mysterious crash”. 
 

[Epiphanaea]

On 10/15/2023 at 12:46 PM, Fish Folk said:

Female Betta splendens will be ready to spawn on a regular cycle if they are well fed and cared for. If fed a rich varied diet of live foods, females can release HUNDREDS of eggs per spawn.

Oh I’m aware, LOL - I haven’t done exact counts but my girl is producing around 100-150 eggs every few days for a week or so, then a gap of about a week with no eggs, then off she goes again.  I’m not trying to maximize number of eggs - no problem there! - I’m trying to keep the number of fertilized eggs that get brooded to a number I could potentially handle if by some miracle they *all* survive (that number is not 300-450).  I would rather limit the number of eggs that get picked up at spawning time than have to cull fry later.  I’m willing to cull for deformities that would impact quality of life, but doing it just to reduce numbers would bother me.

 

EDIT:  I should clarify - I want to keep the betta splendens fry to reasonable numbers, not whatever wild type I decide to try.

Edited October 15, 2023 by Epiphanaea

[Fish Folk]

I miss my Betta imbellis…