Major ph confusion

[Supermassive]

On 9/3/2023 at 8:07 PM, Mmiller2001 said:

his would depend on other factors in the water. Phosphate buffers water also. Seachem Neutral Regulator uses phosphates to buffer the tank to neutral.

Okay I see. From my use of Neutral Regulator it has not affected my PH at all. Maybe I got a bad batch or something. Could also be because I cant actually tell what exactly the PH is using the API master test kit. It seems basically impossible to tell when its between 7.6 and 7.8 so maybe it has changed it from 7.8 to 7.6 and I cant tell. That being said on my 5 gallon tank I tried for weeks to lower the PH using neutral regulator and it never went down. I was doing 20% water changes and dosing for the full 5 gallons every 2-3 days trying to get the PH down. Eventually I was dumping in the full dose directly without even doing water changes. I did that 4 days in a row and PH was exactly the same through all of that. That's when I gave up trying to get my PH down. I am setting up a new tank so I figured I try to figure out PH and with the help of everyone here I feel like I have better understanding. I wont be trying to change my PH anymore.

Thank you so much everyone. It really means a lot to me. I am really happy Aquarium Co Op made this forum. I plan on being active and look forward to talking with you all in the future. 😄❤️

[Supermassive]

On 9/3/2023 at 8:07 PM, Mmiller2001 said:

Why would it be a bad idea?

Here’s my pH profile over a few days and I run 0KH. There’s no “crash”, it’s all very predictable and is the same weekly.

PH would keep dropping if you had driftwood and 0KH wouldn't it?

 

If my PH is 7.8 now and then I removed all the KH wouldn't it "crash" down to where your PH is.

[tolstoy21]

On 9/3/2023 at 8:43 PM, Supermassive said:

PH would keep dropping if you had driftwood and 0KH wouldn't it?

 

If my PH is 7.8 now and then I removed all the KH wouldn't it "crash" down to where your PH is.

I run 20+ tanks at 0Kh. I have found that Ph will only bottom out if I don't change the water and let a lot of organic waste build up (and this is bad for a wide range of reasons, low Ph being the least of these). And even then, the change doesn't happen overnight.

With regular maintenance, my Ph tends to stay pretty stable at 6.0-6.4. I have to consciously try to get my Ph lower than that and this includes the addition of peat and/or a lot of leaf litter. It's some effort for me to get down into the 5's and even more to get down and hold my Ph in the 4's. A bit of driftwood is not enough to make a significant impact. I have a tank with a TON of Malaysian driftwood (big giant hunks of it) and some peat in a box filter. The water is 0Kh and close to 0Gh, and even with these conditions, it still remains pretty stable in the mid 5's. In fact, I'm struggling to get it lower!

The key to stability is to keep up with normal regular tank maintenance, and consistency in terms of your caregiving habits.

Theoretically, if you could instantly remove all the Kh from a tank that is currently 7.8, yes it would crash but ultimately it will settle out somewhere and level off. The dive from 7.8 down into the 6's or lower could be problematic if it happens very, very rapidly. If the change is gradual, then you'd not have any problems unless the inhabitants aren't meant to be in acidic conditions.  Think about how we sometimes acclimate fish with a cup of tank water every ten minutes for an hour. Certainly there is a Ph swing involved in that, but this seems to be gradual enough for most species in my experience.

 

Edited September 4, 2023 by tolstoy21

[Mmiller2001]

On 9/3/2023 at 6:43 PM, Supermassive said:

PH would keep dropping if you had driftwood and 0KH wouldn't it?

 

If my PH is 7.8 now and then I removed all the KH wouldn't it "crash" down to where your PH is.

Crash suggests an immediate or sudden happening. This is never the case and why I say there’s no such thing as a crash. Wood and leaves don’t have a strong affect on pH. Over time, it would lower only by the amount of tannins it releases. If you we’re doing any amount of water changes, then that would correct any downward trend.

[Supermassive]

@tolstoy21 Okay I think that all makes sense to me. So If you have 0 KH and your doing a water change is it very important to make the new water identical to the parameters in your tank? Would it be bad if you did a 20% water change with my 7.8PH tap water?

[Supermassive]

On 9/4/2023 at 10:49 AM, Mmiller2001 said:

Crash suggests an immediate or sudden happening. This is never the case and why I say there’s no such thing as a crash. Wood and leaves don’t have a strong affect on pH. Over time, it would lower only by the amount of tannins it releases. If you we’re doing any amount of water changes, then that would correct any downward trend.

Okay that makes sense too. In my 5 gallon I had driftwood and there was quite a bit of tannins but the PH still never went down. I did 20ish percent water changes every 1-2 weeks. So if I had 0 KH in my tank and did the same regular water changes it would remain stable but at a lower PH? And when doing water changes is it important to match the new water to your tank when you have 0KH?

[Mmiller2001]

On 9/3/2023 at 6:36 PM, Supermassive said:

Okay I see. From my use of Neutral Regulator it has not affected my PH at all. Maybe I got a bad batch or something. Could also be because I cant actually tell what exactly the PH is using the API master test kit. It seems basically impossible to tell when its between 7.6 and 7.8 so maybe it has changed it from 7.8 to 7.6 and I cant tell. That being said on my 5 gallon tank I tried for weeks to lower the PH using neutral regulator and it never went down. I was doing 20% water changes and dosing for the full 5 gallons every 2-3 days trying to get the PH down. Eventually I was dumping in the full dose directly without even doing water changes. I did that 4 days in a row and PH was exactly the same through all of that. That's when I gave up trying to get my PH down. I am setting up a new tank so I figured I try to figure out PH and with the help of everyone here I feel like I have better understanding. I wont be trying to change my PH anymore.

Thank you so much everyone. It really means a lot to me. I am really happy Aquarium Co Op made this forum. I plan on being active and look forward to talking with you all in the future. 😄❤️

For sure, the truth is you’ll want to manipulate KH. It’s way easier and direct. Just cut the water with distilled water and KH and GH will lower. The lower KH will get you noticeable results. Dropping KH to 1 degree should get you to around 6.8.

[Mmiller2001]

On 9/4/2023 at 9:00 AM, Supermassive said:

Okay that makes sense too. In my 5 gallon I had driftwood and there was quite a bit of tannins but the PH still never went down. I did 20ish percent water changes every 1-2 weeks. So if I had 0 KH in my tank and did the same regular water changes it would remain stable but at a lower PH? And when doing water changes is it important to match the new water to your tank when you have 0KH?

Correct, and by matching incoming water to tank water creates true stability.

I match my incoming water to the exact parameters I want my tank to be. So incoming water is 5.2dGH, 0dKH, 30ppm NO3, 10ppm PO4 and 35ppm K. The only thing dosed over the week are micros (planted tank). In reality, my water changes remove organics and adds/replaces nutrients in one change. I have near 0 TDS swing in the tank.

for transparency, here’s my tank.

[Mmiller2001]

And @tolstoy21 is correct. He/she has 20 plus tanks at 0 KH and doesn’t see this so called crash. Everything is predictable and easily controlled with just a simple water change!

 I would encourage you to chase numbers. This is how you learn and visually see how these changes affect the tank. I received the same advice, don’t chase numbers, so I went out and chased those numbers. Now I know how to set those numbers and no longer worry about them. If the numbers are what I want them to be, everything else is on my maintenance practices.

Edited September 4, 2023 by Mmiller2001

[Supermassive]

@Mmiller2001 Wow, that looks incredible. I don't think I am going to get that technical with my water just yet. Seems like I still have a ton to learn first. But I will cut it with distilled water to bring the KH and PH down and just do regular water changes with the mixed water. 

I have to say it again, your tank looks amazing.

Thanks for all your help and advice.

[Mmiller2001]

On 9/4/2023 at 9:54 AM, Supermassive said:

@Mmiller2001 Wow, that looks incredible. I don't think I am going to get that technical with my water just yet. Seems like I still have a ton to learn first. But I will cut it with distilled water to bring the KH and PH down and just do regular water changes with the mixed water. 

I have to say it again, your tank looks amazing.

Thanks for all your help and advice.

Thank you. 
Chasing numbers is where my journey began.

[Supermassive]

@Mmiller2001 Sorry, one more thing to ask. My tank currently has pure tap water that I treated with Neutral Regulator and Acid Buffer. There is no fish in it yet, just pest snails and my plants. Should I do a 100% water change with the mixed tap and distilled water or will that potentially make the plants unhappy or should I do a few 50% water changes over a few days?

[Mmiller2001]

On 9/4/2023 at 10:19 AM, Supermassive said:

@Mmiller2001 Sorry, one more thing to ask. My tank currently has pure tap water that I treated with Neutral Regulator and Acid Buffer. There is no fish in it yet, just pest snails and my plants. Should I do a 100% water change with the mixed tap and distilled water or will that potentially make the plants unhappy or should I do a few 50% water changes over a few days?

I would just do the normal amount of water change with the new mixture. No need to do anything drastic.

[tolstoy21]

On 9/4/2023 at 11:26 AM, Mmiller2001 said:

And @tolstoy21 is correct. He/she has 20 plus tanks at 0 KH and doesn’t see this so called crash. Everything is predictable and easily controlled with just a simple water change!

 

I've only ever experienced a "crash" once. And I'm not even sure I'd call it a crash, it was more of a gradual downward spiral that might have been happening over the course of a month or so when I wasn't paying enough attention. This was with a crystal red shrimp tank where the matter filter just got too full of organics (I think the PPI was too dense). I guess it hit critical mass, because I started seeing massive die off of shrimps. When I tested the water is was around 4.9 Ph. I pulled the matten filter out and rinsed it in the sink and the water coming out of it was like coffee.

As long as one pays attention to their aquariums, does normal, routine maintenance and water changes, Ph downward spirals can be avoided. This pretty much goes for fish keeping in general, independent of Ph, Gh, Kh, etc.

The only time I chase numbers is when I am breeding fish that require very specific parameters to get them mood for some good old fashioned baby making. For these I mix RO water with re-mineralizers, or use a lot of tannins, to dial in the appropriate params.

I guess the only other time I chased numbers was when I kept shellies. My water is naturally acidic so I had to boost the Kh/Ph significantly for them.

Otherwise, I just look for fish that do well in my specific water conditions and use the water out my my tap

On 9/4/2023 at 11:15 AM, Mmiller2001 said:

for transparency, here’s my tank.

That tank is freaking amazing!

Edited September 4, 2023 by tolstoy21

[tolstoy21]

On 9/4/2023 at 10:52 AM, Supermassive said:

Okay I think that all makes sense to me. So If you have 0 KH and your doing a water change is it very important to make the new water identical to the parameters in your tank?

I would say that depends on how much water you are changing. A lot of my tanks are on an auto-water-change system and they receive maybe 10-20% water changes per day. The water is dripped in slowly and this keeps the water fresh and clean and the numbers stable day-in-and-day-out.

If I am changing water on a tank and the numbers between the new water and old water are different, I won't do more than a 50% water change. If they are super-duper drastically different, I'll do maybe a 25% change. These are specifically on tanks where I don't do auto water changes.

My tap water (well water) is reliably Kh 0, Gh 8ish. Has been this without fluctuation for years. My Ph is 5 as it comes out of the tap, but it settles in at 6-6.4 after a day. For tanks where the water goes straight from the tap to the tank, I use drip emitters on timers, so the changes are slow and gradual enough as to have no impact on the tank or fish therein. But this is going from 5 Ph, and water that is 55F in the winter, into tanks that are 6.4 and 78F.

Edited September 4, 2023 by tolstoy21

[Mmiller2001]

On 9/4/2023 at 10:39 AM, tolstoy21 said:

Otherwise, I just look for fish that do well in my specific water conditions and use the water out my my tap

Top notch advice here. I wish I didn’t like plants so much. They just love acidic water.

 

On 9/4/2023 at 10:39 AM, tolstoy21 said:

That tank is freaking amazing!

Thank you.

[Supermassive]

On 9/4/2023 at 12:45 PM, tolstoy21 said:

If I am changing water on a tank and the numbers between the new water and old water are different, I won't do more than a 50% water change. If they are super-duper drastically different, I'll do maybe a 25% change. These are specifically on tanks where I don't do auto water changes.

So even with 0KH as long as you keep it under 50% water change it shouldn't cause any issues if there's a bit of difference in water parameters but ideally it would be nice to have things matching.

[Mmiller2001]

On 9/4/2023 at 11:24 AM, Supermassive said:

So even with 0KH as long as you keep it under 50% water change it shouldn't cause any issues if there's a bit of difference in water parameters but ideally it would be nice to have things matching.

Here’s where the rabbit hole begins 😆. How far it goes no one knows yet! I would say as long as there’s not more than a 150 TDS shift from pre-change to post water change, any amount of water is safe to change as long as GH stays within a 1.5 degree shift. I love my TDS meter, it’s such a cheap valuable tool. They aren’t necessary, but if something looks “off” that’s the first test I check. My incoming water is about 90 and the tank sits around 180 at weeks end. I’m doing around 62% changes every 7th day.

[tolstoy21]

On 9/4/2023 at 1:24 PM, Supermassive said:

So even with 0KH as long as you keep it under 50% water change it shouldn't cause any issues if there's a bit of difference in water parameters but ideally it would be nice to have things matching.

I guess I'm just  saying what has worked for me as a means of example not to fret about low or no Kh. I don't have any concrete rules or science to add to this other than how Kh/Ph work in relationship to one another. 

This sage old advice I think sums it all up:

• Everyone's water/setup is different
• Do the best you can to understand yours and how it works and how you can affect in one direction or another if needed, and what affects water changes of different degrees have on your aquarium
• Don't make crazy drastic changes
• Keep up with routine maintenance/water changes
• Don't chase numbers -- a lot of fish will do fine in neutral to somewhat acidic or basic water.
• Fish can tolerate a change Ph as long as it happens gradually and doesn't bottom out or sky rocket to a degree that a specific species cannot adapt to
• On the other hand, fish appreciate stability, more so than specific target numbers 
• Have fun and don't overthink things (but know how things fundamentally work so you can recognize or fix a problem if you need to).

All of these are vague concepts and everyone applies them in their own ways. But chasing numbers leads to over thinking and trying to fix something that might not be broken (and usually not for the better).

Edited September 4, 2023 by tolstoy21

[nabokovfan87]

On 9/3/2023 at 5:43 PM, Supermassive said:

PH would keep dropping if you had driftwood and 0KH wouldn't it?

I think the use of driftwood to lower PH can be a bit misleading.

This all goes down to organics and yo those organics being in the water. Most of the driftwood we use breaks down relatively slowly compared to something like leaf litter and other things. Those organics break down but the PH is often most affected by fish waste.  I can't put a % on it but I think it all ends up going to how ions are used up, KH drops, and it's not replenished often enough.

There are plenty of species that use the 6.0-7.0 range.  There are a lot of species that use the 6.8-7.4 range and there are a lot of species that use the 7.0+ range.  I explain this simply to say that there is always going to be stocking for whatever your water is doing. I think matching KH isn't intuitive at all, but it's the right approach. PH issues do happen and it can cause disease on fish. One of the most common being skin burns, fin issues, and similar things.

As Tolstoy mentioned, regular water changes does a lot of work. Being diligent with siphons and cleaning, moving hardscape to clean, and having proper circulation all plays a role to make the parameters stable. Ultimately, water in should be similar to water out.

On some aquascaping videos you can see them doing many large water changes just to make sure to clean the tank effectively.