Angelfish emergency and learning opportunity

[Tanked]

Yesterday I found one of my angelfish swimming alone, and the male dead on the bottom.  When I attempted to net the dead fish, it tried to swim away!

It swam to the surface and was quickly joined by its mate.  They are a breeding pair.  As I watched, the male began sinking and the female began poking at him pushing it back to the surface.  After sinking back to the bottom of the aquarium, the female continued to poke at its mate.  My first thought was that she could at least wait until he died before eating him.  After watching for a few minutes, I came to believe that she was standing guard over him.  She remained inches away fending off any other fish that came close.

Today, the fish is still alive and flat on the bottom.  Its mate is still standing guard. The tank parameters are unchanged, and I have stepped up aeration and added a partial dose of aquarium salt.   

0 ammonia, nitrite, chlorine,  50 nitrate,   6.4 PH,  40 KH,  300+ GH

Now what?

Edited July 6, 2023 by Tanked
Additional information

[nabokovfan87]

On 7/6/2023 at 6:22 AM, Tanked said:

0 ammonia, nitrite, chlorine,  50 nitrate,   6.4 PH,  40 KH,  300+ GH

Temp?

Ultimately it sounds like some sort of internal issue where the fish ran into something or tried to jump and hit the lid. It's likely internal damage and so you'd want to check for swelling, redness, etc.

The best course of action for me would be to net the fish to eliminate any issues and to give the angel a tank with as minimal water height as you can. This reduces the pressure on the swim bladder and might help.

Using something like aquarium salt can also reduce stress as well as good aeration (as you mentioned) and adding in some botanicals.

Monitor for changes and hopefully there is some improvement over the next couple of days.

[Tanked]

On 7/6/2023 at 3:34 PM, nabokovfan87 said:

Temp?

Ultimately it sounds like some sort of internal issue where the fish ran into something or tried to jump and hit the lid. It's likely internal damage and so you'd want to check for swelling, redness, etc.

The best course of action for me would be to net the fish to eliminate any issues and to give the angel a tank with as minimal water height as you can. This reduces the pressure on the swim bladder and might help.

Using something like aquarium salt can also reduce stress as well as good aeration (as you mentioned) and adding in some botanicals.

Monitor for changes and hopefully there is some improvement over the next couple of days.

Temp is 82 .  The fish can swim briefly if disturbed, but ultimately pancakes on the bottom.  I was already considering floating a plastic kitchen colander, and  I'll add the other 6 tbsp. of salt and wait.

Strangely enough this ties in with your fish/human interaction topic.  I'm not bothered too much by finding a dead fish, but finding a sick or dying fish is stressful.

[Odd Duck]

Have you done a water change to get the nitrates down? Lowering borderline nitrates can be helpful for sick fish.  That level of nitrates could potentially be harmful if it’s always that high.  Always try for less than 20 for sick fish.  I’d also say that GH is very high for angels but if they were born and raised in it then I wouldn’t necessarily want to adjust it while the fish is sick.

[Tanked]

I'll do a small water change tonight.  I don't know for sure what the GH is.  Like many of us, the numbers are off the scale, and have always been that way.  I've had these for 3 years, and they were purchased locally.

As a side note, I have recently begun using a new jar of test strips and the nitrate levels seem a little higher than usual.  I'll have to check my notes.

 

[Odd Duck]

If you have drop testers you can cross check with them.

[Tanked]

On 7/6/2023 at 6:51 PM, Odd Duck said:

If you have drop testers you can cross check with them.

Anything I have is old.  This may be a good reason to try the master test kit.  Thx.

[nabokovfan87]

On 7/6/2023 at 3:54 PM, Tanked said:

Anything I have is old.  This may be a good reason to try the master test kit.  Thx.

This is not included in the normal test kits and is usually bought as a separate (very cheap) GH or KH+GH test kit.

In the EU it is much more common to get a GH/KH and other items as part of the master kit.

[Chick-In-Of-TheSea]

I agree with the water change idea to lower nitrates and see how he does afterwards.

[Tanked]

The angel is still alive in its floating prison. The female is still returning frequently to check on her mate.  I've added some bloodworms in the hopes that the fish will attempt to eat.  

The GH-KH test kit arrived yesterday.  I didn't know there was a learning curve!  A single drop of water will change the readings.  Each time you remove the cap, you will lose part of the sample.  I've always interpreted the GH and KH to be 300 and 40-60  (ppm) respectively.  Liquid tests indicate GH= 13 drops 232 (ppm).  KH= 3 drops   53.58 (ppm).  Close enough!

[Chick-In-Of-TheSea]

On 7/9/2023 at 11:08 AM, Tanked said:

The angel is still alive in its floating prison. The female is still returning frequently to check on her mate.  I've added some bloodworms in the hopes that the fish will attempt to eat.  

The GH-KH test kit arrived yesterday.  I didn't know there was a learning curve!  A single drop of water will change the readings.  Each time you remove the cap, you will lose part of the sample.  I've always interpreted the GH and KH to be 300 and 40-60  (ppm) respectively.  Liquid tests indicate GH= 13 drops 232 (ppm).  KH= 3 drops   53.58 (ppm).  Close enough!

Yeah, one of my friends has the liquid kit and she explained it to me. I think it's weird.  I just do strips. 😆

[Chick-In-Of-TheSea]

Hey @Tanked how is the angelfish doing?

[Tanked]

On 7/12/2023 at 12:49 PM, Chick-In-Of-TheSea said:

Hey @Tanked how is the angelfish doing?

Thanks for asking!

As of this moment he has begun to swim, inverted, but at least he is swimming. I don't know for what duration.  I have been alternating between bloodworms and freeze dried shrimp along with a few flakes.  The theory is that if he can't come to the food, it will sink to him.  His colander is anchored, but receives part of the bubble stream from the air stones.  For this reason, I don't know how much of the proteins he is getting and how much is being flushed out.  I did see him try to grab at a few flakes, but he  became agitated by my attempts to take pictures, splashing me and the walls.

I can't help admiring the fact that his mate spends a good amount of time swimming next to him on the outside of his prison.   The sick angel's tail is a little ragged so I've also been wondering if the lone Tiger Barb had something to do with this problem.  I hated to do it,  but I gave it (the tiger) back to the LFS after noticing that he had begun chasing and nipping at the Silver Dollars. 

[Tanked]

As titled, this was an emergency and a learning experience.  It would appear that the emergency has passed.  There is still some learning to be done.  I've never had a sick fish that recovered😲

The angel has been swimming upright for three days, and appears to be getting stronger.  I have seen it eating the bloodworms,  but as long as I'm watching it doesn.t seem interested in the Duckweed or flakes.   This is where the problems begin.

The fish is getting stronger, and is easy agitated/frightened when I approach the tank.  This is actually new behavior.  @nabokovfan87's suggestion to put the fish into a shallow container to relieve pressure probably helped on several levels, but now the restricted swimming area is too small when the fish gets agitated.

Yesterday I prematurely let the angel out.  I expected things to return to normal.  It's mate began chasing and pecking at it as if trying to reestablish the tank hierarchy.  It didn't take long before he rolled over and sank to the bottom again.

At this point I need to establish that the fish can maintain a swimming depth and is not just resting on the bottom of its plastic jail.  I can give it a much larger shallow swimming space, or I can release it behind the fish fence in the picture.  If that works, I still have to figure out how to return the angel to the community.

Thoughts?

[Peaceful Fish]

Can you set up a tank and put him in by himself?   

[anewbie]

btw you should only feed them bloodworm very rarely - as it is not all that healthy for them. Too fatty and frequently even frozen/store purchased bloodworm have dieases. freeze dry stuff is at least for the most part better with regards to disease but still not the best food.

[Chick-In-Of-TheSea]

On 7/16/2023 at 11:48 AM, Tanked said:

It's mate began chasing and pecking at it as if trying to reestablish the tank hierarchy

So, the strong fish is aware that the other fish is ill. It wants to eliminate the liability, so to speak. My tetras did this to a guy that had recovered from an illness in quarantine. When I returned him, he was not contagious but he was also not 100% strength. They were able to detect that and wanted to pick him off. It may be best to put your guy in a quarantine tank or even a heated/filtered bucket for two or so weeks til he gets his bearings again. @Tanked

On 7/16/2023 at 12:13 PM, Peaceful Fish said:

Can you set up a tank and put him in by himself?   

☝️👍

Edited July 16, 2023 by Chick-In-Of-TheSea

[nabokovfan87]

On 7/16/2023 at 8:48 AM, Tanked said:

Thoughts?

I would get a temp tote, 20G or so and go from there.  Find a sterilite container as they are usually considered food safe plastic.

[Tanked]

On 7/16/2023 at 12:16 PM, anewbie said:

btw you should only feed them bloodworm very rarely - as it is not all that healthy for them. Too fatty and frequently even frozen/store purchased bloodworm have diseases. freeze dry stuff is at least for the most part better with regards to disease but still not the best food.

Bloodworms and freeze dried shrimp are normally just a treat. They were chosen initially because they would sink to the bottom and allow the fish to scoot around and find something.  They are also easy to count.  The other food tended to float away. The normal diet is flake food, algae and Duckweed.

[Tanked]

@Peaceful Fish@Chick-In-Of-TheSea@nabokovfan87 I could have him in a 5 gallon tank or a tote in about an hour. This time of year heat is not an issue.

Is there a reason why I should not put him behind the fence?  The fence separates the plants from the plant eaters and 14 gallons is a lot of space for 1 fish.

[Chick-In-Of-TheSea]

On 7/16/2023 at 5:06 PM, Tanked said:

@Peaceful Fish@Chick-In-Of-TheSea@nabokovfan87 I could have him in a 5 gallon tank or a tote in about an hour. This time of year heat is not an issue.

Is there a reason why I should not put him behind the fence?  The fence separates the plants from the plant eaters and 14 gallons is a lot of space for 1 fish.

I don’t see why he can’t go over there. I wasn’t sure what all you had on the other side of that, but if it’s just plants, go for it. Should work well.

[nabokovfan87]

On 7/16/2023 at 2:06 PM, Tanked said:

@Peaceful Fish@Chick-In-Of-TheSea@nabokovfan87 I could have him in a 5 gallon tank or a tote in about an hour. This time of year heat is not an issue.

Is there a reason why I should not put him behind the fence?  The fence separates the plants from the plant eaters and 14 gallons is a lot of space for 1 fish.

Yes the fish can go to the other side of the grate.  Just be sure the fish can rotate, swim, move as need be.  Left <---> Right, Front <---> Back

[Tanked]

Just what is probably the final follow up. 

Maintenance is usually followed by an extra feeding or treat.  Friday was freeze dried shrimp day.  The female angel got overly excited and pushed her way past the fence.  This was a first.  There is a gap that allows smaller narrow bodied fish to pass, but the angels have never done this. The male is well on his way to what I hope is a full recovery.  His swimming is a little jerky but that might end if his tail regrows. More importantly, after a few light strikes which the male returned, they seem to be a pair again. 

[Chick-In-Of-TheSea]

Wonderful!

[Shadow]

Awesome stuff! Glad he recovered!!