Issues With Baby Brine Shrimp

[DBam]

Been having some problems with my brine shrimp hatches. Water starts out in the 70's (°F) and eventually settles at 20.5°C or 69°F. I add 2 Tbls of uniodized salt and a pinch of baking soda in chlorinated tap water to the Ziss hatchery and leave it for ~36 hours. Air is steady but not a violent boil. When I go to drain and strain the hatch out the hatchery looks like the photo below. There is a layer of yellow/orange that is not live shrimp. I can't tell if they're dead or if they might be molts. Fish will still eat them but pickier ones turn them down, probably because they're not moving. Wondering if anyone else has encountered this and what could be done to increase live shrimp yields. 

 

I've searched around online and found people describing similar problems, sometimes on this same forum, but no resolutions. I'm determined to sort it out. I run a new batch every day to feed some tiny wild caught Dicrossus and can test and observe on a 36 hour cycle.

[TOtrees]

The water in your photo looks really clear to me. At the end of 36-48 hrs, my waste water is distinctly hazy, even after the bbs have been filtered out. 

Can you borrow or steal a few cups of marine salt to try a few batches with that? I use marine salt with no baking soda. 

I’d also try to get your temp up. I use an incandescent bulb in a desk lamp right next to the hatcher. Room temp is low 70s, the hatcher is 80ish during the day (light is off at night). 

[DBam]

Thanks, yes I definitely should be using a light on them. How many eggs are you using for your water to go cloudy? I'm probably around half a teaspoon right now, give or take.

[KittenFishMom]

bbs need light even if they don't need it for heat.

[jwcarlson]

On 4/3/2023 at 12:42 AM, DBam said:

Thanks, yes I definitely should be using a light on them. How many eggs are you using for your water to go cloudy? I'm probably around half a teaspoon right now, give or take.

That's about how many eggs I do and it's typically not cloudy unless I don't heat them at all and it goes quite a bit longer than typical.  Which reminds me that I didn't put eggs in my 2nd hatcher this morning... that's going to be a monkey wrench in about a day. 😄

[TOtrees]

On 4/3/2023 at 1:42 AM, DBam said:

How many eggs are you using for your water to go cloudy? 

I run about 1tsp eggs in about 1.5L of water (sorry to mix units). I also use the ziss hatcher, and it's about 2.5" from the top. That gets 1 1/2 tbsp of salt. 

I think I'm pretty close to the limit, if I lose my agitation for anything more than around 30mins towards the end of the cycle, I start to see die-offs. 

I will also say something here that I've said elsewhere, I think that separation is more useful/important that hatch rate or temperature or any of that. Separation varies from brand to brand, and I don't know how good it is with the coop brand. I've found a brand here in canada that has phenomenal separation, and that makes collecting feeding super easy. No filtration to remove hatched from unhatched eggs is necessary. At the end of each run, I turn off the air for 10 mins, and then 99.99% of the shells and unhatched rise to the surface, so all I have to do is open the drain tube at the bottom and close it before the shells go through. The only downside of the brand I use is that hatching takes the better part of 48hrs. It's pretty much done after 36 or 40 hours, but for my schedule it works best to run it for 48. 

[Tommy Vercetti]

I add 1 2/3 Tbls of pure rock salt and a pinch of baking soda in chlorinated tap water to 1 liter of water in my hatchery. I keep the temperature at about 75f using an incandescent bulb.

[Cmike15]

I use the coop brine shrimp hatcher using 1.5 - 2 tbs of salt with half a teaspoon of eggs, any more and i'd need more than 2 active tanks.

I also don't dechlorinate hearing it helps to hatch the eggs. My area doesn't add huge amounts so it's been fine. when warmer mid summer i can get a small hatch after 24 hours but the majority 36-48 hours in. i have an overhead light on all day.

[Myersc1989]

Mine always take 36-48 hours. Any sooner and I get what you got. Same problem with temp but it works out in the end so I don't worry about it. Around the 24 hour mark I add some fritz complete and haven't had any issues.

[tolstoy21]

On 4/3/2023 at 2:19 AM, KittenFishMom said:

bbs need light even if they don't need it for heat.

On 4/3/2023 at 8:06 PM, Cmike15 said:

i have an overhead light on all day.

I have my shrimp on the same light as the room, which means a normal day/night light schedule. This does not seem to affect the hatch. I've hatched shrimp everyday now for 4+ years and have had very few bad batches.

On 4/2/2023 at 3:05 PM, DBam said:

Water starts out in the 70's (°F) and eventually settles at 20.5°C or 69°F

I would run the water much warmer than that. At 78F, mine take about 36 hours to hatch. At lower temps, the hatch will take much longer, if they hatch at all.

 

Edited May 5, 2023 by tolstoy21

[DBam]

Thanks for all the responses. Quick update; hatcheries are now inside a 10 gallon tank that sits at 78-78 °F. There's a light on a timer for 16 hours a day. I still get some of that dead looking stuff at the bottom but what I think I need now is to swap out the Ziss airstone and line to it for something rigid that can get air right to the bottom point of the hatcher. I remember a certain Deano on the YouTubes mentioning that he did that too with the Ziss hatcher. Will try and upload a picture of it later.

Edited May 5, 2023 by DBam

[sumplkrum]

What brand of brine shrimp are you using?

The coop brine shrimp are nice because the egg shells float and separate really well. I usually don't get any gunk at the bottom at all.

Other brands I've used, the eggs tend to be more dry and 'powdery'.
The shells sink to the bottom and make a mess ... so your brand could be messy.

-- That being said, your first picture doesn't look like egg shells collected at the bottom. It looks like dead shrimp.

 

Personally, I actually prefer decent agitation from the air source.
It doesn't hurt the shrimp at all, and it keeps the water in your container well-mixed.

[Rube_Goldfish]

On 5/5/2023 at 6:06 PM, tolstoy21 said:

I would run the water much warmer than that. At 78F, mine take about 36 hours to hatch. At lower temps, the hatch will take much longer, if they hatch at all.

 

What temperature would you run it at? I have a small heater and would like to harvest in about 24 hours.

Lately I'm having great hatch rates but they're all dying some time between hatch and harvest:

All that orange is hatched, but dead, BBS. I'm using the Ziss, 2 L chlorinated water, 2 Tbsp kosher salt, about 2/3 tsp brine shrimp eggs, and maybe 1/32 tsp baking soda. That recipe was going great for months with the heater set to 82°F until the last couple batches. My first batch or two had a lot of dead BBS, which I solved by lowering the airflow through the Ziss from "rolling boil" to "gentle simmer". I just rearranged my fish room, including the hatchery, so my latest hypothesis is that I must have bumped the airline valve, so I'll try turning it back down. But I'm slowly trying to eliminate all other potential variables.

[tolstoy21]

On 11/8/2023 at 6:19 PM, Rube_Goldfish said:

What temperature would you run it at? I have a small heater and would like to harvest in about 24 hours.

If I remember correctly, I ran it somewhere between 81 and 83F and would have a decent hatch rate after about 24 hours.

Right now, I use a rotation of three hatcheries so there is always one ready every day.

[Rube_Goldfish]

On 11/8/2023 at 8:34 PM, tolstoy21 said:

If I remember correctly, I ran it somewhere between 81 and 83F and would have a decent hatch rate after about 24 hours.

Right now, I use a rotation of three hatcheries so there is always one ready every day.

Okay, I'm trying again, with 2/3 tsp eggs in 2 liters of tap water, 2 Tbsp kosher salt, 81°F, and the air pump turned down to just this side of off. I won't know if that works until tomorrow!

[tolstoy21]

 

On 11/9/2023 at 5:08 PM, Rube_Goldfish said:

Okay, I'm trying again, with 2/3 tsp eggs in 2 liters of tap water, 2 Tbsp kosher salt, 81°F, and the air pump turned down to just this side of off. I won't know if that works until tomorrow!

I use 4 Tbsp of rock salt (natural solar salt I get from Home Depot) and 1 tsp of baking soda per 2 liters.  That's been working for me. But honestly, if you ask ten different people, you'll get ten different answers as to what the best ratios are. But, the take away is, if your hatch percentage is less than you want/expect, experiment with modifying the amounts of salt, etc. 

Edited November 9, 2023 by tolstoy21

[Rube_Goldfish]

On 11/9/2023 at 5:16 PM, tolstoy21 said:

 

I use 4 Tbsp of rock salt (natural solar salt I get from Home Depot) and I tsp of baking soda per 2 liters.  That's been working for me. But honestly, if you ask ten different people, you'll get ten different answers as to what the best ratios are. But, the take away is, if your hatch percentage is less than you want/expect, experiment with modifying the amounts of salt, etc. 

Oh yeah, I forgot: also 1/32 tsp baking soda. My tap water is about 0 dGH and something like 7.2 pH straight out of the tap (about 8.2 after 24 hours degassing). So I might not need the baking soda, but as you said, it's a trial-and-error thing, and I'm trying to adjust one variable at a time.

[Rube_Goldfish]

Nope, looks like it's the same result:

Back to the drawing board, I guess. I suppose I'll try cutting out the baking soda next.

[Rube_Goldfish]

In my searching on the forum, I saw a thread where @Cory said one problem they run into at the store sometimes with the Ziss hatchery is inadequate cleaning:

Maybe that's an issue for me? Like a sort of slow build up of biofilm or whatever?

My standard cleaning procedure is, as soon as I'm done feeding out all the BBS, is to disassemble the hatchery and run it all under the hottest water I can comfortably touch. I run the hot water through the openings at the bottom, with the valve rinsed separately, then get my hand in and rub down all the interior surfaces. Sometimes I can feel (and remove) buildup but most of the time I don't feel anything. Then I either let it all air dry or get it set up again right away.

Is that adequate cleaning? For folks consistently, successfully hatching BBS in a Ziss, what's your cleaning procedure?

[Rube_Goldfish]

I've been discouraged and haven't run another batch in the last three days. Partly I've been trying to figure which variable to tinker with next, but on paper, none of them should be a problem. I think my next batch will be:

2 liters tap water, 2 Tbsp kosher salt, 0 baking soda, 81°F, gently "simmering" air for about 24 hours. I expect that the CO2 will have gassed off by then, so my pH should settle into the low 8s.  (I also expect that all or most of the chlorine will have too, but c'est la vie.) Then I'll add 2/3 tsp brine shrimp eggs, then harvest 24 hours after that, and see how we do. In other words, the variable I'll be modifying this time is to omit the 1/32 tsp baking soda.

[Matt B]

I use instant ocean and Aquarium Co-op's eggs.

I was wondering, why add baking soda?  PH ?

[TOtrees]

I find that a vigorous rolling boil is better than a simmer. Did you get rid of the airstone and go with a rigid tube? I know the ziss hatcher used to come with one, not sure if it still does or not. 

I use a bottle brush to clean out my hatcher under full hot running tap water after each use. But no soap, and I only clean out the bottom valve every 2-3 weeks or so. 

For hatching, I use water that is passed through a carbon block filter, so it's dechlorinated. Meaning I don't think that using chlorinated water is necessary. That also means that you could easily try a bottled spring water, to see if something in your tap water is causing issues. 

I'll also say that when I harvest at 48hrs, after I turn of the agitation to let the unhatched eggs and shells separate, I do get some accumulation of dead bbs at the bottom, probably not much less that what you seem to have. The water column is full full of swimming/live bbs, so I know that the number of dead ones is vastly less than the number of live, but if your goal is zero dead, you might be aiming too high. 

Lastly, I'm not saying you're wrong, but I don't think you need to consider things like pH changes and CO2 gassing off. I've tried adding water, salt and eggs all at once, and also adding eggs after the salt dissolves and the water clears. No difference that I can see. I've even added eggs to fresh water, then add salt after an hour or so and you'll still see hatching. 

[Rube_Goldfish]

On 11/13/2023 at 9:46 PM, Matt B said:

I use instant ocean and Aquarium Co-op's eggs.

I was wondering, why add baking soda?  PH ?

The idea of the baking soda was to increase the KH more than the pH; my tap water has a 24-hour off-gas pH of about 8.2, but now that I'm typing it all out, I think the carbonate hardness is probably fine. I think I was just thinking that their exoskeletons would need the carbonates.

On 11/14/2023 at 8:04 AM, TOtrees said:

I find that a vigorous rolling boil is better than a simmer. Did you get rid of the airstone and go with a rigid tube? I know the ziss hatcher used to come with one, not sure if it still does or not. 

I use a bottle brush to clean out my hatcher under full hot running tap water after each use. But no soap, and I only clean out the bottom valve every 2-3 weeks or so. 

For hatching, I use water that is passed through a carbon block filter, so it's dechlorinated. Meaning I don't think that using chlorinated water is necessary. That also means that you could easily try a bottled spring water, to see if something in your tap water is causing issues. 

I'll also say that when I harvest at 48hrs, after I turn of the agitation to let the unhatched eggs and shells separate, I do get some accumulation of dead bbs at the bottom, probably not much less that what you seem to have. The water column is full full of swimming/live bbs, so I know that the number of dead ones is vastly less than the number of live, but if your goal is zero dead, you might be aiming too high. 

Lastly, I'm not saying you're wrong, but I don't think you need to consider things like pH changes and CO2 gassing off. I've tried adding water, salt and eggs all at once, and also adding eggs after the salt dissolves and the water clears. No difference that I can see. I've even added eggs to fresh water, then add salt after an hour or so and you'll still see hatching. 

My initial few hatches, when I wad first learning how to do it, I'd end up with a lot of dead, but hatched BBS, so I decided that the bubbling was too strong and was injuring the new nauplii. I turned it down and my survival rate went up.

Then toward the end of my last can of eggs, I started getting what I photographed above; hatched but dead shrimp. I thought maybe it was just from the end of the can, but the new one did it, too. Which is what lead to all this tinkering and frustration.

I don't expect 100% or 100% survival, and I can only eyeball it, but it looks like I'm getting 1:1 or 2:1 dead:alive, so I feel like I'm going to a lot of expense and trouble to just flush dead shrimp down the drain. (Side question: can you feed out dead BBS? I know people feed out frozen BBS, but that seems safer than 'died of unknown causes' dead BBS.)

Maybe my estimations are wrong and I'm just getting normal dying off, but either way, it's still a lot more than I'm used to, so that's frustrating, too.

Okay, so I'll try my normal recipe but omit the baking soda, and we'll see what happens.

Thanks!

[TOtrees]

On 11/14/2023 at 3:29 PM, Rube_Goldfish said:

Side question: can you feed out dead BBS?

I’d say yes, when they’re so recently perished. Your cories plecos shrimps and loaches will love them when they settle to the bottom. 

[Rube_Goldfish]

On 11/14/2023 at 3:29 PM, Rube_Goldfish said:

The idea of the baking soda was to increase the KH more than the pH; my tap water has a 24-hour off-gas pH of about 8.2, but now that I'm typing it all out, I think the carbonate hardness is probably fine. I think I was just thinking that their exoskeletons would need the carbonates.

My initial few hatches, when I wad first learning how to do it, I'd end up with a lot of dead, but hatched BBS, so I decided that the bubbling was too strong and was injuring the new nauplii. I turned it down and my survival rate went up.

Then toward the end of my last can of eggs, I started getting what I photographed above; hatched but dead shrimp. I thought maybe it was just from the end of the can, but the new one did it, too. Which is what lead to all this tinkering and frustration.

I don't expect 100% or 100% survival, and I can only eyeball it, but it looks like I'm getting 1:1 or 2:1 dead:alive, so I feel like I'm going to a lot of expense and trouble to just flush dead shrimp down the drain. (Side question: can you feed out dead BBS? I know people feed out frozen BBS, but that seems safer than 'died of unknown causes' dead BBS.)

Maybe my estimations are wrong and I'm just getting normal dying off, but either way, it's still a lot more than I'm used to, so that's frustrating, too.

Okay, so I'll try my normal recipe but omit the baking soda, and we'll see what happens.

Thanks!

I got sick last week, so my experimentation was a little delayed and a little un-science-y because of that. That said, my most recent batch* was the same: rough 2:1 dead:alive (though the fish mostly happily ate the dead ones, too).

So at this point, the only real logical conclusion is that my Ziss hatchery isn't adequately cleaned. I'll try to disassemble the air diffuser to see if I can clean that out, and run a brush through the rigid airline.

Can I use vinegar, either straight or diluted, to clean the hatchery walls and/or the airline and/or the diffuser? If so, would I soak them in vinegar or just a quick rinse? If soak, how long?

* 2 liters of tap water, 2 Tbsp kosher salt, gentle agitation with the Ziss air diffuser that came with the hatchery, about 2/3 tsp ACO eggs, heater keeping the water at 81°F, harvesting at about 24 hours. No baking soda this time. Because I had a cold, the Ziss ran with everything except the eggs for about 48 hours before I put the eggs in.