Issues With Baby Brine Shrimp

[TOtrees]

On 11/20/2023 at 2:31 PM, Rube_Goldfish said:

So at this point, the only real logical conclusion is that my Ziss hatchery isn't adequately cleaned.

I think a more effective way to test this is to run a batch in a different container. Eg a 2L pop bottle with the bottom cut off or something like that. 

If I were in your shoes, I'd use spring water from the store, kosher salt, and a 2L bottle. No baking soda. 

I will say I'm glad you're taking your time with this. Rushing from one step to the next would only introduce problems. 

[Rube_Goldfish]

On 11/20/2023 at 3:38 PM, TOtrees said:

I will say I'm glad you're taking your time with this. Rushing from one step to the next would only introduce problems. 

I wish I could say it was patience, or scientific caution or something, but it's been 20% circumstance and 80% discouragement. But I do agree with your broader point of patience and observation in this hobby!

Anyway, I was searching for any tutorials on properly cleaning the Ziss hatchery when I re-found this ACO set of instructions. It says that if "you have soft water, you can add to ¼ to ½ teaspoon of baking soda to raise the pH or add 1 teaspoon of Epsom salt to raise the GH (for 2 liters of water)." My tap water runs through a household water softener and comes out of the tap at close to 0 dGH. I hadn't considered that as a problem, because until I started having this problem, I was getting very nice hatch rates, but I have some Epsom salt, so that's my next plan: 1.75 L tap water, 2 Tbsp kosher salt, 1 tsp Epsom salt, 81°F, 2/3 tsp eggs, gentle bubbling. I'll set up the water tonight, put the eggs in tomorrow morning, them harvest them 24 hours later and see how we do.

In the meantime, I haven't found any cleaning procedure beyond what I've been doing, so I'll set that idea aside for the time being.

[Guppysnail]

@Rube_Goldfish I use a paper towel, hot water and a filter brush set.  After it’s clean I use hydrogen peroxide to clean the container, air stone and heater. The peroxide only adds a few minutes but does seem to keep my hatch rate higher vs when I’m lazy (often😂) and don’t. It also keep my airstone nice longer. I use the black Ziss never clog one (lost the little plastic one)

[Rube_Goldfish]

On 11/22/2023 at 1:11 PM, Guppysnail said:

@Rube_Goldfish I use a paper towel, hot water and a filter brush set.  After it’s clean I use hydrogen peroxide to clean the container, air stone and heater. The peroxide only adds a few minutes but does seem to keep my hatch rate higher vs when I’m lazy (often😂) and don’t. It also keep my airstone nice longer. I use the black Ziss never clog one (lost the little plastic one)

Thanks, I'll try that! Just a splash of straight peroxide? I've been "scrubbing" using hot water and my hands, but I guess that wasn't cutting it.

My Ziss didn't come with an airstone, per se, but what with Ziss calls an "air diffuser", which seems similar enough. Other than shooting water down the rigid tubing through the diffuser, though, I haven't really figured out a good way to clean the diffuser.

[Guppysnail]

On 11/22/2023 at 2:04 PM, Rube_Goldfish said:

Just a splash of straight peroxide?

Yup. I squirt it out if the bottle. I scrub hot water and paper towel. First thing I do is set airstone in H. Peroxide to soak while I’m cleaning the container. 

And yes that is the plastic one I lost 🙄

[jwcarlson]

On 11/10/2023 at 11:17 AM, Rube_Goldfish said:

In my searching on the forum, I saw a thread where @Cory said one problem they run into at the store sometimes with the Ziss hatchery is inadequate cleaning:

Maybe that's an issue for me? Like a sort of slow build up of biofilm or whatever?

My standard cleaning procedure is, as soon as I'm done feeding out all the BBS, is to disassemble the hatchery and run it all under the hottest water I can comfortably touch. I run the hot water through the openings at the bottom, with the valve rinsed separately, then get my hand in and rub down all the interior surfaces. Sometimes I can feel (and remove) buildup but most of the time I don't feel anything. Then I either let it all air dry or get it set up again right away.

Is that adequate cleaning? For folks consistently, successfully hatching BBS in a Ziss, what's your cleaning procedure?

For what it's worth.  I started scrubbing with brush after each hatch and I haven't had another issue after making that post.  My temperatures and setup take about 36 hours to get decent first hatch, I take most of what I can and then pull two more feeds over the next day.  If that makes sense.  So hour 0 start hatch, hour 36 pull first feed, hour 48 pull second feed, hour 60 pull third feed, rinse/scrub, and start a new hatch.  

The third feed is really small.  A lot of times I scrap after the 2nd pull because there's little/none left.

On 11/22/2023 at 1:04 PM, Rube_Goldfish said:

Thanks, I'll try that! Just a splash of straight peroxide? I've been "scrubbing" using hot water and my hands, but I guess that wasn't cutting it.

 

My Ziss didn't come with an airstone, per se, but what with Ziss calls an "air diffuser", which seems similar enough. Other than shooting water down the rigid tubing through the diffuser, though, I haven't really figured out a good way to clean the diffuser.

You can ditch that diffuser.

Edit to add: you can ditch it and cut a small piece of air tubing to length between the lid and the rigid tube so that it gets the bubbler location right down in the bottom of the hatcher.

Edited November 22, 2023 by jwcarlson

[Rube_Goldfish]

On 11/22/2023 at 2:44 PM, jwcarlson said:

Edit to add: you can ditch it and cut a small piece of air tubing to length between the lid and the rigid tube so that it gets the bubbler location right down in the bottom of the hatcher.

I guess the bigger bubbles are better, or it's just one less potential place for contamination?

And how do you connect the rigid airline tubing and the... floppy? Regular? Airline tubing? They seem to be the same inner diameter. Do I use a straight airline connector?

[jwcarlson]

On 11/22/2023 at 2:19 PM, Rube_Goldfish said:

I guess the bigger bubbles are better, or it's just one less potential place for contamination?

And how do you connect the rigid airline tubing and the... floppy? Regular? Airline tubing? They seem to be the same inner diameter. Do I use a straight airline connector?

Regular airline.  Sometimes it helps to run the flexible stuff under hot water, that usually helps it slip over it.  

Less chances of clogging and gets down deeper into the cone is my understanding.  One other thing that might be happening is over mixing and breaking the swimmerettes off of the shrimp?  Overall, it seems like they take a pretty good beating, but it's something to think about.  On the flip side, I think I went down too low at one point and it basically wasn't helping to jiggle them out of the eggs.

Edited November 22, 2023 by jwcarlson

[Rube_Goldfish]

By the way, @DBam I'm sorry I took over your thread, that wasn't my intention. I just try to see if there are existing threads on the topic of my question before starting a new one.

Anyway, I'll report back here Friday and let everyone know how it went!

[DBam]

On 11/22/2023 at 1:44 PM, Rube_Goldfish said:

By the way, @DBam I'm sorry I took over your thread, that wasn't my intention. I just try to see if there are existing threads on the topic of my question before starting a new one.

Anyway, I'll report back here Friday and let everyone know how it went!

Nope, no apology necessary. Glad we have a discussion going about this issue. I haven't swapped my airline out to rigid tubing yet so that's still in the future for me. 

[Rube_Goldfish]

IT WORKED!

I ended up cleaning out my Ziss hatchery with paper towels (for the flat surfaces), a pipe cleaner and the hose cleaner I have for my filter (a substitute bottle brush, but for now it worked), and then plugged it back up to splash/wipe some hydrogen peroxide around, per @Guppysnail, then a last rinse.

The other thing I did was to remove the air diffuser and add about an inch of flexible airline tubing, per @jwcarlson. I was reluctant to make two changes at once because it seemed unscientific, but I couldn't figure out any way to really clean the diffuser, so I figured it would be a confounding variable either way.

Thanks to everyone who helped out, from me and some grateful fish!

Edited November 24, 2023 by Rube_Goldfish
Deleted picture, which was just a black rectangle for some reason

[Shrimp Doggy Dogg]

On 11/20/2023 at 11:31 AM, Rube_Goldfish said:

 

Can I use vinegar, either straight or diluted, to clean the hatchery walls and/or the airline and/or the diffuser? If so, would I soak them in vinegar or just a quick rinse? If soak, how long?

Yes, you can use vinegar.  I keep a 5g bucket nearly full of vinegar for cleaning all kinds of things.  I soak my hatchery overnight on off days and the all buildup just rinses right off.

Of course you can also just fill the hatchery with vinegar and keep it in there for about 16 hours.  I'm guessing after several hundred cleanings with vinegar, the gaskets might start to fail.

[Rube_Goldfish]

On 11/24/2023 at 10:05 AM, Rube_Goldfish said:

IT WORKED!

I ended up cleaning out my Ziss hatchery with paper towels (for the flat surfaces), a pipe cleaner and the hose cleaner I have for my filter (a substitute bottle brush, but for now it worked), and then plugged it back up to splash/wipe some hydrogen peroxide around, per @Guppysnail, then a last rinse.

The other thing I did was to remove the air diffuser and add about an inch of flexible airline tubing, per @jwcarlson. I was reluctant to make two changes at once because it seemed unscientific, but I couldn't figure out any way to really clean the diffuser, so I figured it would be a confounding variable either way.

Thanks to everyone who helped out, from me and some grateful fish!

Well, I'm back, unfortunately. My survival rate had a brief boost with my improved cleaning protocol, but it didn't last long, and within a couple weeks was back to the familiar problem I'd described above: great hatch rate, but most of the newly-hatched nauplii dying sometime between hatch and harvest.

So I wanted to go back to the basics, and ended up, naturally, on the ACO blog how-to, where I noticed this paragraph:

"If you don’t have marine salt and you have soft water, you can add to ¼ to ½ teaspoon of baking soda to raise the pH or add 1 teaspoon of Epsom salt to raise the GH (for 2 liters of water)."

I have a water softener, so my tap has a GH of close to zero. So I added a teaspoon of Epsom salt to the batch I set up today, and will report back my results tomorrow. Wish me luck!

[Rube_Goldfish]

On 2/26/2024 at 5:10 PM, Rube_Goldfish said:

Well, I'm back, unfortunately. My survival rate had a brief boost with my improved cleaning protocol, but it didn't last long, and within a couple weeks was back to the familiar problem I'd described above: great hatch rate, but most of the newly-hatched nauplii dying sometime between hatch and harvest.

So I wanted to go back to the basics, and ended up, naturally, on the ACO blog how-to, where I noticed this paragraph:

"If you don’t have marine salt and you have soft water, you can add to ¼ to ½ teaspoon of baking soda to raise the pH or add 1 teaspoon of Epsom salt to raise the GH (for 2 liters of water)."

I have a water softener, so my tap has a GH of close to zero. So I added a teaspoon of Epsom salt to the batch I set up today, and will report back my results tomorrow. Wish me luck!

Nope. Even worse than before. I had about the same "good hatch rate / bad survival rate" problem, but this time the dead nauplii were weirdly clumped up. If low general hardness is my problem, I guess it's not magnesium that's the issue. I guess I'll look for a cheap source of water soluble calcium, or maybe do a cost comparison of Equilibrium and Tums. Or maybe just suck it up and buy the ACO brine shrimp salt.

[Rube_Goldfish]

On 2/27/2024 at 2:29 PM, Rube_Goldfish said:

Nope. Even worse than before. I had about the same "good hatch rate / bad survival rate" problem, but this time the dead nauplii were weirdly clumped up. If low general hardness is my problem, I guess it's not magnesium that's the issue. I guess I'll look for a cheap source of water soluble calcium, or maybe do a cost comparison of Equilibrium and Tums. Or maybe just suck it up and buy the ACO brine shrimp salt.

Actually, I have a water softener because our municipal water supply is hard. It has a bypass valve but it's aa hassle to use, but I think the outside hose is not softened. I'd have to test it, I guess, and bring it up to room temperature, but that ought to work.

[Sammy]

On 2/27/2024 at 12:29 PM, Rube_Goldfish said:

Nope. Even worse than before. I had about the same "good hatch rate / bad survival rate" problem, but this time the dead nauplii were weirdly clumped up. If low general hardness is my problem, I guess it's not magnesium that's the issue. I guess I'll look for a cheap source of water soluble calcium, or maybe do a cost comparison of Equilibrium and Tums. Or maybe just suck it up and buy the ACO brine shrimp salt.

Clumping is bacteria. Early death is bacteria too. I mix in 1/8 teaspoon of Epsom salt (plain) to the water. Make sure it's premixed before adding to the water. I also add 2 drops of bleach - eliminates the bacteria before they can multiply and use up oxygen- the chlorine gasses off before it can affect the BBS. Not my idea, found it here: https://www.tfhmagazine.com/articles/freshwater/a-scientific-economic-and-commonsense-approach-to-brine-shrimp-hatching

 

[Rube_Goldfish]

On 2/29/2024 at 4:04 PM, Sammy said:

Clumping is bacteria. Early death is bacteria too. I mix in 1/8 teaspoon of Epsom salt (plain) to the water. Make sure it's premixed before adding to the water. I also add 2 drops of bleach - eliminates the bacteria before they can multiply and use up oxygen- the chlorine gasses off before it can affect the BBS. Not my idea, found it here: https://www.tfhmagazine.com/articles/freshwater/a-scientific-economic-and-commonsense-approach-to-brine-shrimp-hatching

 

This seems great! I saw that the authors' water is 125 ppm general hardness, whereas mine is closer to 0, but I guess they don't need the calcium if Epsom salt can do the trick. Bleach, huh? Okay, I'll try it and let you know!

[Rube_Goldfish]

Well, I had a few similarly bad hatches, including another with clumping, but they had confounding variables*, so I didn't really count or report them.

But I finally tried again, and this time I had some leftover water in my water change bucket that I hadn't used. It was remineralized to about 6 dGH, whereas my previous hatches were at or very close to zero. This batch was a resounding success! (And I did use three drops of chlorine bleach, for the record.) I'll be hatching another batch this week to try to replicate my results, but I really think my hatching water was too deficient in calcium, causing the brine shrimp to hatch but then die.

* For example, one batch I harvested about two hours too late, which I don't think should have mattered too much at 81°F but I was trying to be careful/scientific about it. Another batch clumped up, but I think I figured that out: I decant from the Ziss hatcher into a brine shrimp sieve, then rinse with tap water and then use tank water to wash the nauplii off the of the sieve and into my cup. I thought I could use RO water for both purposes, since it was a convenient source of dechlorinated water, but it seems to have disagreed with the BBS.

[Rube_Goldfish]

On 3/15/2024 at 9:06 PM, Rube_Goldfish said:

Well, I had a few similarly bad hatches, including another with clumping, but they had confounding variables*, so I didn't really count or report them.

But I finally tried again, and this time I had some leftover water in my water change bucket that I hadn't used. It was remineralized to about 6 dGH, whereas my previous hatches were at or very close to zero. This batch was a resounding success! (And I did use three drops of chlorine bleach, for the record.) I'll be hatching another batch this week to try to replicate my results, but I really think my hatching water was too deficient in calcium, causing the brine shrimp to hatch but then die.

* For example, one batch I harvested about two hours too late, which I don't think should have mattered too much at 81°F but I was trying to be careful/scientific about it. Another batch clumped up, but I think I figured that out: I decant from the Ziss hatcher into a brine shrimp sieve, then rinse with tap water and then use tank water to wash the nauplii off the of the sieve and into my cup. I thought I could use RO water for both purposes, since it was a convenient source of dechlorinated water, but it seems to have disagreed with the BBS.

I've now had two straight fantastic hatches, so I'm willing to conclude that the softness of my tap water, particularly the almost total absence of calcium, was the cause of the die-off. I have ordered a bag of the Easy Brine Shrimp Salt since it has calcium in it, and so should be a convenient alternative to any other remineralization of my water. Thanks everyone for all your help!