Resistance to meds?

[Scaperoot]

 

 I've been told, on separate occasions, and at two different LFS, NOT to treat new fish with any meds. They claim that the fish will develop a resistance to those meds and would prevent the treatment from working properly in the future. I know ACO's med trio regimen, but I want to know where they get this from. How much would you need to treat for fish to develop a resistance to it? I wouldn't give it much thought, except for the fact that I was told this by different people. Ironically (sadly), I no longer but fish from one of these stores because none of the fish (Betta, pea puffers, guppies) have survived. 

[Guppysnail]

I don’t know how much would create a med resistant strain of bacteria etc. I do not medicate unless I see specific symptoms. Rx is prescription only for humans and never given as a preventative unless an injury or other condition exists or precautionary unless it is a vaccine. So I go with the science on humans being probably correct. @Odd Duck may be able to shed light on the creating resistant strain thing. 

Edited February 14, 2023 by Guppysnail

[Odd Duck]

@Pepereis pretty much spot on.  Doing a partial treatment (not finishing all the antibiotics like the doctor ordered) does increase the risk for letting any resistant bacteria present have a jump start once the antibiotics are stopped.  Excessive use of antibiotics is another potential cause of resistant bacteria, like treating a cold with antibiotics when it’s a virus that causes colds, not a bacteria.  Using an antibiotic that isn’t likely to be effective against the particular bacteria present can increase resistant strains.  Or using antibiotics for fungal infections - not going to do anything except to possibly reduce risk of a secondary bacterial infection.

It would be much better to determine the actual cause of the infection and treat appropriately.  It would be wonderful to be able to do microscopy, at least, on every infection, even better to do cultures on every infection.  In the real world, it would be hugely cost prohibitive to do so for most owners.  It would be a rare individual indeed that would spend $500.00-$1000.00 plus to do microscopy with DiffQuik stain, Gram’s stain, then aerobic, anaerobic, and fungal cultures on every spot that popped up on a $3.00 neon tetra.  The real world just doesn’t work that way.

There are many potential causes and a variety of interactions that can cause resistance.  I do have concerns about overuse of antibiotics which is why I sometimes only recommend salt and pristine water vs. jumping right to antibiotics.  When antibiotics are used, you should use them until they’ve finished the job or proven that they are not working.  Don’t do single doses and think you’re done just because the fish started to improve.  The fish’s fins should be clearly healed of infection before you stop, for instance.  The fins may not be fully grown back, but they should be clearly healed up, infection stopped, and starting to regrow (using this purely as an example since we’ve had several fin rot cases under discussion lately and it came to mind immediately).

Bear in mind that there are always bacteria present in the environment.  Some degree of anti-microbial resistance is inherent in certain species of bacteria - Gram negative bacteria don’t respond to the same antibiotics as Gram positive bacteria.  [FYI: A Gram’s stain tells us about a difference in the cell wall structure of bacteria and gives us the first hint of what type of antibiotic may work against that bacteria.]  Many bacteria need to reach a certain population point before they can cause infections.  Some bacteria only cause disease when the immune system is not working right.  Some only take advantage of injuries and cause disease only when they invade deeper tissues vs. just being on the surface of the skin, for instance.

Good husbandry - appropriate water changes, keeping fish in temperatures and other water parameters that favor their best health (appropriate heaters for all bettas, for instance), avoiding mixing soft water fish with hard water fish, avoiding mixing cool water species with warm water species, etc.  These are very common things that aquarists do without even thinking twice about it or even realize they’re doing this.  It might never cause any problems, but might also potentially cause very subtle, intermittent problems.

We are probably all guilty of sometimes doing less than ideal for our fish, and most are tolerant of wide enough parameter ranges that it never causes a problem.  But doing our best to keep fish at their ideal parameters can do wonders for preventing the need for antibiotic usage entirely.

And this is coming from somebody that dispenses antibiotics all day, every work day.

[nabokovfan87]

On 2/16/2023 at 8:55 PM, Odd Duck said:

We are probably all guilty of sometimes doing less than ideal for our fish, and most are tolerant of wide enough parameter ranges that it never causes a problem.  But doing our best to keep fish at their ideal parameters can do wonders for preventing the need for antibiotic usage entirely.

And this is coming from somebody that dispenses antibiotics all day, every work day.

This is my favorite thing. 

I cherish the moments when I look up a species, where they came from, and I'm able to learn through the fish I enjoy watching every day.  Just one of many reasons that a fish tank is so much more than a glass box of things.  Be the fish.... learn the fish.... listen to the fish.

I'm sure there's an ancient proverb in there somewhere.

 

Quote

Who hears the fishes when they cry?

-Henry David Thoreau

 

Edited February 17, 2023 by nabokovfan87

[The endler guy]

On 2/14/2023 at 12:09 PM, Guppysnail said:

I don’t know how much would create a med resistant strain of bacteria etc. I do not medicate unless I see specific symptoms. Rx is prescription only for humans and never given as a preventative unless an injury or other condition exists or precautionary unless it is a vaccine. So I go with the science on humans being probably correct. @Odd Duck may be able to shed light on the creating resistant strain thing. 

I believe I have read some redworms have developed resistance to certain meds (hopefully not mine)

On 2/14/2023 at 11:37 AM, Scaperoot said:

 

 I've been told, on separate occasions, and at two different LFS, NOT to treat new fish with any meds. They claim that the fish will develop a resistance to those meds and would prevent the treatment from working properly in the future. I know ACO's med trio regimen, but I want to know where they get this from. How much would you need to treat for fish to develop a resistance to it? I wouldn't give it much thought, except for the fact that I was told this by different people. Ironically (sadly), I no longer but fish from one of these stores because none of the fish (Betta, pea puffers, guppies) have survived. 

Honestly the best cure that doesn’t give pathogens a resistance (unless generations are exposed to very slight increases) is salt. It works at the atomic scale and the only way it can be combated is salinity tolerance (which has its own downsides)

[Chick-In-Of-TheSea]

On 2/17/2023 at 1:37 AM, nabokovfan87 said:

Who hears the fishes when they cry?

-Henry David Thoreau

Meanwhile my grandma has always said "Silent like the P in fish." 😆