Should Chinese Algae eaters even be sold?

[SaveTheRainbowfish]

The Chinese algae eater is a decent algae eater when young but very aggressive and competitive for food as an adult. Should they even still be in the trade? Let me know your opinions!

Edited February 8, 2023 by SaveTheRainbowfish

[Lennie]

Common plecos are being sold as a algae eaters for all tank sizes.

People  should make detailed researches regarding the fish they want to keep rather than blaming the fish to be honest. There can be people who like them and want to keep them, maybe in a semi agressive tank, or species tank even. Who knows. If you go to a store end up buying a SAE instead of CAE for your 10g, you will still have issues with their size, or maybe territorial behavior due to not being kept in groups, but it still is a great algae eater afterall. Who is the problem here, the buyer or the fish?

People also should understand that, We, the tank keepers, are the best algae clean up crew ourselves. Whether manually, or by trying to find what works for each of us specificially with a trial and error, lighting time, maintenance, fertilizing, everything. Fish or inverts are just an assistance, which helps very much indeed, but all come with a bioload, whether it is a chinese algae eater or something else. 

Chinese algae eaters really have a specific look compared to SAE. If someone goes to store ends up buying CAE as an algae eater, well, not many researches has been done tbh, unless there is a plan of rehoming when grown, but again why not SAE again in this scenario. I can understand being confused with Flying Fox, garra taeniata and SAE trio to some extend, especially if they are sold under wrong names, but not CAE tbh. It really has a different look compared to other 3 imo, and it is still super easy to tell when they are juviniles. My lfs keeps them all together in the same tank as juviniles and they are really different visually.

Also a lot of people mention their bristle nose plecos stopping to eat algae to a big extend when they grow as well, but you can easily see them in top10 algae eaters everywhere. 

Edited February 8, 2023 by Lennie

[Matt Armstrong]

On 2/8/2023 at 2:05 PM, Lennie said:

Who is the problem here, the buyer or the fish?

The LFS also has an opportunity to educate people, too.

[lefty o]

i dont care for them, but yes they should be sold. people should know what they are buying.

[Theplatymaster]

@SaveTheRainbowfishI agree with @lefty oand @Lennie that people should be educated better about these fish. I have nothing against these fish actually being sold, i just think what they are being sold for should change.

I believe the issue is they are being sold as "Community Algae Eaters" just like say Panda Garras, or Otos. And as juveniles that's true, but the store only has them as juveniles. I think there is something that should be fixed in this fish, of the marketing. I think they can probably make great pets, instead of being marketed to be kept with guppies and tetras, with say Oscars, or Jack Dempseys.

[Lennie]

On 2/9/2023 at 1:36 AM, Matt Armstrong said:

The LFS also has an opportunity to educate people, too.

It does not mean one should do less research about anything they are expecting to take the responsibility of tho. It is not only about fish but basically for valid for adopting any animal. They are basically like kids and in need of care. If you get any, you take the responsibility of aiming to providing them a good life. And this is all about us, not about someone else informing us at a store.

After learning about fishkeeping101, the best you can do is visiting your lfs or the online store and see what do you like to keep. Then do a lot of in depth research, read peoples experiences, and ask in forums if necessary. You can't expect an lfs to list every potential scenario or detail in a limited time at the store. Their purpose is trying to make money efficiently there at the end of the day.

Like imagine you have decided to buy a mystery snail. A single mystery snail. The stuff you have to explain for each species is insane. Tank conditions, parameters, whether it eats plants, its diet, snello making, calcium in water column, water hardness and ph situation related to shell erosion, their egglaying behavior, having a lid, some fish potentially harassing them so learning about all tank mates and many more just for a snail. Imagine this whole day long going for everyone entering to the store and for every fish they are interested in. Impossible

On 2/9/2023 at 2:00 AM, Theplatymaster said:

I believe the issue is they are being sold as "Community Algae Eaters" just like say Panda Garras, or Otos. And as juveniles that's true, but the store only has them as juveniles. I think there is something that should be fixed in this fish, of the marketing. I think they can probably make great pets, instead of being marketed to be kept with guppies and tetras, with say Oscars, or Jack Dempseys.

They may suck on other fishes bodys for the coat if I'm not wrong. So still debatable really. I don't know that well about every match for them to talk a lot as I've also never kept one.

I think CAE are one of the creepiest fish in the hobby but I know there are people just love them. And it is all about these personal opinions really

Edited February 8, 2023 by Lennie

[Theplatymaster]

On 2/8/2023 at 6:01 PM, Lennie said:

They may suck on other fishes bodys for the coat if I'm not wrong. So still debatable really. I don't know that well about every match for them to talk a lot as I've also never kept one.

 

true, i dont know much about these fish, my idea being; put them with other large semi-aggressive fish that can take care a bit of aggression and return it.

[SaveTheRainbowfish]

It's really interesting to see everyone's opinions!

Thank you all for giving some input!😀

[Matt Armstrong]

On 2/8/2023 at 3:01 PM, Lennie said:

You can't expect an LFS to list every potential scenario or detail in a limited time at the store. Their purpose is trying to make money efficiently there at the end of the day.

People should do research, yes. But, reality is, very few people in this hobby research all aspects of every fish they've ever purchased. So, the LFS has both an opportunity and a role in helping customers avoid landmines.

Chinese Algae Eaters are almost trick fish. They're most often sold small, on display with tetras and other small fish, yet they get large and markedly change in behavior over their life time.

We could have a long discussion about this, but I don't think the purpose, ethically speaking, of an LFS is to make money above all other considerations. They have animal welfare to consider as well. Even if making money were their only consideration, educating customers would help them do that, as their customers would come to trust them and become loyal customers. The best ones already do this, at least as much as they can.

Edited February 9, 2023 by Matt Armstrong

[Flumpweesel]

They are generally called and sold under the name sucking loach here. They periodically disappear from shops seen a few more recently but they not commonly stocked round me. 

I asked one shop owner if they were aggressive and she just answered with she doesn't get many returned. 

 

[mynameisnobody]

Of course they should be sold, potential keepers should do their due diligence. The LFS should be informed as well as inform, however their is a definitive boundary to their responsibility. Hopefully with enough documented information like this thread, all potential keepers can use this to move forward. This is just my opinion, once you start banning because of user error, you start creeping into some weird territory. 

[SaveTheRainbowfish]

I didn't mean to be a critic. I just wanted to hear some opinions.😀

[jwcarlson]

The only reason anything is sold is because someone wants to buy it.  You could argue that the name including "algae eater" does more to sell them than anything else.  There's plenty of fish available in store that shouldn't be purchased by 95%+ of hobbyists.

Pacus used to be extremely common in the hobby.  But I haven't seen a pacu at a fish store in quite some time now.  I think that's a good thing.  But if people were still buying pacus, they would probably still be available.

[mynameisnobody]

@jwcarlson Last time I was my LFS, I saw 3 baby Oscar’s houses with a school of larger zebra danios. If someone didn’t know, they’d think these 2 species could be housed together. Obviously this would end up being a pricey snack in a month or so. 
I think the best way to get people that actually care about what they are keeping is to keep the trends to a minimum. Trends attract the fad crowd. Most won’t take the time to do the research. Just my opinion. 

[JettsPapa]

On 2/9/2023 at 1:59 PM, Mynameisnobody said:

I think the best way to get people that actually care about what they are keeping is to keep the trends to a minimum. Trends attract the fad crowd. Most won’t take the time to do the research. Just my opinion. 

The failure to do research isn't always due to being lazy, or in a hurry.  It would never occur to some newcomers to the hobby that they should do research.

[mynameisnobody]

@JettsPapa I think you’d be 100% correct if it wasn’t for YouTube. 10 years ago this was a valid excuse, not now a days. Of course there are outliers, but for the most part…

[jwcarlson]

An unfortunate part of the internet is that even if someone is researching, if they happen to latch onto the wrong source... they might as well have done no research at all.  Most all hobbies have their fair share of bad information available and fish keeping is no exception.  

That said, the people who don't do any research at all are probably like that in everything they do.  I am, perhaps, an over researcher in a lot of ways.  And that can be good or bad.  

Fishless cycling is a good example of some silliness in the hobby (in my opinion).  It doesn't encourage learning about your aquarium, it feels like a recipe... I put this many drops in and I wait and dip a strip in sometimes.  When these squares stay white, I can put fish in.  With the obvious assumption being that everything is good to go at that point.  But if you encourage cycling with a light stocking and monitoring of the tank, that person probably comes out the other end a much better fishkeeper who is better connected to their aquarium and who probably has a good feel for tank maintenance too as they probably changed some water to keep ammonia and/or nitrite levels down.  AND it was something to DO and keep them engaged with their tank.  Let's face it... it's pretty boring having a box of water that you're not doing really anything with and offers you not much to look at for a month or more.

At the end of the day, some people simply do not learn well by means other than by doing.  

Edited February 9, 2023 by jwcarlson

[JettsPapa]

On 2/9/2023 at 3:01 PM, Mynameisnobody said:

@JettsPapa I think you’d be 100% correct if it wasn’t for YouTube. 10 years ago this was a valid excuse, not now a days. Of course there are outliers, but for the most part…

I stand by my statement.  How would they run across YouTube videos about fish keeping if they didn't know they should?

[mynameisnobody]

@JettsPapa opinions 

[The endler guy]

Yay, I think every fish should be able to be sold (even illegal ones) as those who incorrectly house them should not ruin it for those who actually care about their fish, that being said, there definitely should be animal abuse laws that include fish

[Lennie]

On 2/10/2023 at 4:35 PM, JettsPapa said:

I stand by my statement.  How would they run across YouTube videos about fish keeping if they didn't know they should?

By being aware of they are adopting an animal and taking its responsibility. Im not mentioning this to give"I am perfect, I know everything" type of vibe. Which is far from that. I definitely learnt and still learning a lot while keeping animals and from the stuff I have been going through all the time, but there is literally no excuse for not doing a research for me in 2023. We are all surrounded by technology and reaching information is so easy.

 I've been keeping tortoises, fish, turtles, chicken, parrot, cats, dogs, pigeons, guinea pigs, hamsters and even horses.

I've started doing a research before weeks or even months ago for every animal I decided to take care of. You don't need anyone to tell you to do so really.

If I trusted some of the lfs, I've heard suggestions like, cycling a tank with methylyn blue, water conditioners are unneccessary even in city tap water, I don't need a cycled tank, and so on. Everything could end up with a disaster. You guys are assuming all lfs owners and more importantly personnel have a great knowledge about fish keeping in general, which is not the case all the time. I've been sold juvinile 3 blood parrots for 29g tank being told they were good for this tank size when I was a kid. I don't wanna say anything more.

Also in many topics, we can easily see people have really conflicting opinions on a lot of stuff even today. So seeing many perspectives and trying to reach opinions you trust is important imo

If anyone even ever write chinese algae eater petco to google search bar, even that page gives you an all around info about them.

Edited February 10, 2023 by Lennie

[Tanked]

On 2/9/2023 at 2:09 PM, jwcarlson said:

The only reason anything is sold is because someone wants to buy it.  You could argue that the name including "algae eater" does more to sell them than anything else.  There's plenty of fish available in store that shouldn't be purchased by 95%+ of hobbyists.

Caveat Emptor!  Let the buyer beware!

In the The things you don't know when you're starting out . . . thread I mentioned My misadventures with Columbian Sharks.  As a child In the pre internet days I was one of the 95%.  We relied on the big box store clerk whose only qualification might have been owning a goldfish and working in the pet dept.  It would be interesting to know who makes the aquatic stocking decisions for big box stores.  Similar to adding "algae eater" to the description, what kid doesn't want a "shark" in his 10 gallon aquarium?  They should have mentioned that had it lived, my shark would require saltwater and a much larger aquarium.  They were more interested in the princely sum of $4.00 each.

Today the information is there for you to find, but I think that the seller should provide more information beyond: semi aggressive, community, 2-4 "

[jwcarlson]

@Tanked I agree that more information should be available.  The issue is, if most people walked into a place that cared enough, I think they would leave.  And I don't know that I fault the store, honestly.  Now, if they're specifically asked for information and lie or don't give a full picture... then that's horrible.  I keep honey bees and sell queens and I actively miss out on tons of queen sales because I try to help the person who calls me wanting to buy a $40 queen bee from me.  Because I don't want them to throw away money for no reason and I don't want one of "my queens" to basically be sent to her death in the wrong situation.  Now... I'm not making my living on queen bees, so I can afford to be empowered to turn down someone.  In the long run, this helps the people willing to listen.  Those that don't typically buy a queen online for $35 and pay $20 to have it shipped and then call me a few weeks later when things are still all messed up.  The hardest thing for humans to understand is when the best thing to do is to do nothing.  Don't buy the queen, there's already one in your hive you just need to wait.  Don't buy that fish, it gets too big.  Don't buy that filter, it won't fix your problem.  

Basically no one likes to be told they shouldn't do something.  And that includes me, honestly.  But when you're willing to do enough research and be honest with yourself, I think it is really fulfilling.  

Overall, it's really easy for me to look at a fish store and go, man... wouldn't it be great is this person actively sold less product because a lot of these people are buying stuff they shouldn't have because I'm not the one hoping I can make my rent payment if I sell enough of these 20 boxes of new fish kind of deal.  We were at the LFS I frequent last weekend and they always "read off" what they are charging you for "I've got 8 kerri tetras, two medium driftwoods, two sponge filters" etc.  So if you're listening or close enough to the checkout you hear what fish others are buying and sometimes it makes me cringe.  Or you hear some of their conversations when they're shopping.  But I do not know what they've got.  Maybe they have a gourami room and they have tanks for those 8 dwarf males they just picked up. *shrug*

[Sleepy]

On 2/8/2023 at 4:10 PM, SaveTheRainbowfish said:

The Chinese algae eater is a decent algae eater when young but very aggressive and competitive for food as an adult. Should they even still be in the trade? Let me know your opinions!

While I really hate to see some species of fish for sale at LFS and think they just shouldnt be sold I've tried to adjust my view to be more that an ethically run store should advise the customer on that fish before selling it but the bigger problem is not just with fish but with most pets my thoughts are they are purchased without doing the proper research of which I am also guilty of doing in the past.