Fin Rot - At a Crossroads for Next Steps, Please Help!

[MoonMom]

@Goldie BlueThis reply is belated and I've read it several times. First time I thought "no way is this due to flaring". Second time I thought: "well, he IS super active and you did go through a time where water quality was inconsistent..." Third time after I watched a few videos of betta flaring behavior I thought: "I guess what I took for sociability/active curiosity could in fact be sings of excessive stress/flaring. and if that's the case, yes, he is a non-stop flarer 100%"

It's also I guess easier to minimize the behavior because he essentially has no more fins left so it was a lot less noticeable (to me, a novice) as flaring behavior.

@Colu @nabokovfan87 @Odd Duck @FLFishChik update is water parameters are largely the same in both tanks as reported above (that is, the existing beta tank and newly planted but otherwise "empty" 15 gal. fluval kit). In Moon's tank I've added the Indian almond leave. he's been on consistent 1 tbsp/gal salt and is on last dose of second round kanaplex--with water changes as recommended. His behavior/appetite is still good but no signs of fin rot stopping let alone healing.

In my new planted tank the algae is under control/gone due to the recommended peroxide treatment. the Scarlett temple completely melted away and I removed and replaced with new ones (tbd whether they suffer a better fate). Water sprite seems hearty and still full of occasional new growth but some of the plant continues to turn black. Pogostemon stellatus octopus is a rockstar. Vallisneria has completely melted off but I trimmed and left the rizhome. hope it will grow back--it had started to put out two runners before it melted off. Java moss is new but seems ok. Pearl weed completely died off. Remnants of pale Monte Carlo remain. Annubias petite has been through some trauma/ups and downs but remained alive and a trooper for 9 mos. now (used to be in the betta tank before I salted it). This tank gets easy green once a week and root tabs once a month.

I want to put 8-10 harlequin raspboras into the planted tank and treat with Trio. Then add a handful of amano shrimp and when they're all co-existing nicely transfer my betta and hope that the real plants help him live a happier life than whatever is going on for him now.

On 2/14/2023 at 2:27 AM, Goldie Blue said:

A huge tip...get two prefilter sponges (I use the Fluval Edge prefilter sponges) and pop them on those two outtakes in the top right. The flow in that tank will blast your betta around the tank without them. 

I'd also suggest putting some pothos into that feeding hole up top and let the roots grow out. My guy loves hanging in those things all day. I also bought 3 or 4 smooth, 3D printed tubes to put up by the water surface for him to relax in. The floating log destroyed his fins, those things are trash.

Goldie Blue, thanks for the tip on the pre-filter sponges. Will pick up now as I'm certain the flow is too much for my betta. Thanks also for the tip on that and the pathos. when you say a 3D printed tube that floats, what do you mean? I got him a floating log from aquarium coop but havent used it yet because his current tank is so small and full of an Indian almond leaf and (fake) plants. Also to answer your question, the filter I have in the current betta tank is just a charcoal kit filter. In the fluval 15 there's sponge, ceramic rings and also charcoal.

Thanks again all. This has been a great resource. Truly appreciate all the help, and what a fascinating thing fish keeping can be!

Regards,

MoonMom

[Goldie Blue]

On 2/20/2023 at 10:05 PM, MoonMom said:

when you say a 3D printed tube that floats, what do you mean?

@MoonMom You can find a few different ones on Etsy, but the two that have worked the best for me are:

https://www.etsy.com/listing/1027492363/lounging-betta-sleeping-tube

https://www.etsy.com/listing/888479835/11-colors-seeshelter-betta-tunnel

The lady who owns the SeeShelter store is suuuper sweet, I've bought a ton of those from her, and she even started making a giant sized one because I told her my axolotl outgrew the small one!

On 2/20/2023 at 10:05 PM, MoonMom said:

I got him a floating log from aquarium coop but havent used it yet because his current tank is so small and full of an Indian almond leaf and (fake) plants.

Be careful with the logs, especially since your guy is already in bad shape. I am sure they are fine for some bettas, but the inside grooves on the floating log is actually what caused BOTH of my bettas fin rot. The tubes listed above are all totally smoothed out and come with suction cups so you stick them on the glass up towards the top of the tank.

On 2/20/2023 at 10:05 PM, MoonMom said:

His behavior/appetite is still good but no signs of fin rot stopping let alone healing.

I am really very sorry to hear this. It's very frustrating to have this happen when you're seemingly doing everything right. I went through MONTHS of fin rot with Goldie Blue, and I am actually treating him in salt as we speak because I think it's coming back yet again. 

On 2/20/2023 at 10:05 PM, MoonMom said:

This tank gets easy green once a week and root tabs once a month.

This one is out there, but I swear that every time I dosed the tank with Easy Green (back when my guy was in my 55 gallon community tank) he would get really lethargic and lay on the floor. EVERY SINGLE TIME. I did a few tests by stopping the EG and seeing what happened to him after a few weeks without it, and sure enough every time I added it back in he would start acting weird again. People swear by it, and none of my other tanks/fish have issues with it, but something about adding that to the tank made my one betta really weird.

I only keep java fern in his tank, and the pothos roots stuck in the hole at the top of the Flex now as those don't require any ferts and only need lights/sun. 

I only mention it because you seem to still be struggling, and a lot of this can be trial and error. After MONTHS of Goldie Blue being healthy, happy, and stable in the Flex, he is now getting fin rot, and there is literally 0 reason for him in this tank. There is nothing at all he can damage his fins on, water is pristine. I really think some of them are more prone to getting it than others.

Keep us posted on how it's going, and let me know how you like the 3D tubes if you pick any up! Good luck!

[nabokovfan87]

@Chick-In-Of-TheSea

The post at the top is related to some of the behavior you've seen with Geppetto. I just wanted to share it in case it's helpful at all.

On 2/20/2023 at 8:05 PM, MoonMom said:

Pogostemon stellatus octopus is a rockstar. Vallisneria has completely melted off but I trimmed and left the rizhome.

PSO is definitely one that grows fast and large! I don't know if all Pogos are that feisty but octopus sure is. Can you show us the Val?

On 2/20/2023 at 9:14 PM, Goldie Blue said:

I am really very sorry to hear this. It's very frustrating to have this happen when you're seemingly doing everything right. I went through MONTHS of fin rot with Goldie Blue, and I am actually treating him in salt as we speak because I think it's coming back yet again.

How is the ol' lad doing? How is the fin looking? He's come such a long way.

[nabokovfan87]

On 2/20/2023 at 8:05 PM, MoonMom said:

In Moon's tank I've added the Indian almond leave. he's been on consistent 1 tbsp/gal salt and is on last dose of second round kanaplex--with water changes as recommended. His behavior/appetite is still good but no signs of fin rot stopping let alone healing.

Let me double check on salt. If kanaplex isn't working, there is another one you can try.

Salt looks fine.  How long has salt been at this level?

The other med you can try is called Neoplex.  Please post photos of what you're seeing.  When I first treated fin rot what I thought was further rot was actually the fin healing.

Edited February 21, 2023 by nabokovfan87

[Odd Duck]

On 2/20/2023 at 10:05 PM, MoonMom said:

the filter I have in the current betta tank is just a charcoal kit filter

You can’t use charcoal and have your meds be effective.  Charcoal is used to pull meds out of the water at the end of treatment.  If you’ve had charcoal in the whole time during treatment, please pull it out and do a round of treatment without any charcoal.

[MoonMom]

@Goldie Bluewhat a development with your betta--it's got to feel defeating after so much time spent battling it and after good recovery made. Thank you very much for the info on the 3D tubes, pathos and java fern. I don't have Moon in the planted tank yet so don't have any insight into whether he'll be sensitive to EG or not.

On 2/21/2023 at 1:33 AM, nabokovfan87 said:

Can you show us the Val?

Please see pics of what's left of the Val along with close-ups of the main plant and the runners it has put out.

 

On 2/21/2023 at 1:39 AM, nabokovfan87 said:

Salt looks fine.  How long has salt been at this level?

The other med you can try is called Neoplex.  Please post photos of what you're seeing. 

@nabokovfan87 After the treatment with Trio didn't work, I let my fish recover and then figured I'd try just salt at a pretty high level (3 tbsp per gallon). I started that Dec. 30. I bumped salt down to 1 tbsp per gallon when I started the first cycle of Kanaplex (started on Feb 5)--have now completed the 2nd course. Have posted current pics below--am sorry I could not get better quality/clarity on the fin edges, I tried for a while. Hopefully these are at least somewhat helpful.

On 2/21/2023 at 4:11 AM, Odd Duck said:

You can’t use charcoal and have your meds be effective.  Charcoal is used to pull meds out of the water at the end of treatment.  If you’ve had charcoal in the whole time during treatment, please pull it out and do a round of treatment without any charcoal.

@Odd Duck not to worry! There's no charcoal in there--I pulled out when I started the Kanaplex and also had the charcoal out of the tank during the initial Trio treatment. 

Thanks again all. Truly a wealth of knowledge on this forum.

Best,

MoonMom

[nabokovfan87]

On 2/21/2023 at 9:37 PM, MoonMom said:

@nabokovfan87 After the treatment with Trio didn't work, I let my fish recover and then figured I'd try just salt at a pretty high level (3 tbsp per gallon). I started that Dec. 30. I bumped salt down to 1 tbsp per gallon when I started the first cycle of Kanaplex (started on Feb 5)--have now completed the 2nd course. Have posted current pics below--am sorry I could not get better quality/clarity on the fin edges, I tried for a while. Hopefully these are at least somewhat helpful.

Yeah, Val's really dislike salt.  I think ACO mentions on their website about it.  That's likely what happened.

I had this happen with DHG, thought some would recover, but eventually they all succumb to just too much damage.  Keep an eye on it and pull them if you feel like it's just going to be a phosphate dump / algae bomb in your tank.  Things like that can snowball into further issues.  Hopefully you see them pop up soon!

 

 

On 2/21/2023 at 9:37 PM, MoonMom said:

Have posted current pics below--am sorry I could not get better quality/clarity on the fin edges, I tried for a while. Hopefully these are at least somewhat helpful.

I apologize, I don't see any fish photos.

[MoonMom]

On 2/22/2023 at 12:43 AM, nabokovfan87 said:

Yeah, Val's really dislike salt.  I think ACO mentions on their website about it.  That's likely what happened.

Actually the tank where my betta is being treated has no live plants. I removed the only one I had (the annubias petit) when I started in with the salt. These plants are all in my new Fluval Flex tank which I had planted in anticipation of moving Moon over when I had that tank up and running with plants and some amano shrimp and rasboras. Didn't want to add those guys until my plants were squared away! So there's nothing in there but plants right now...

Sorry about the fish pics--here they are!

[nabokovfan87]

On 2/21/2023 at 9:57 PM, MoonMom said:

These plants are all in my new Fluval Flex tank which I had planted in anticipation of moving Moon over when I had that tank up and running with plants and some amano shrimp and rasboras.

Hm.

I get the feeling everything you're doing is 100% right and the water tests clean.  I would ask to double check nitrates, but I think everything should be ok.

If this was my tank, my situation, I would start by cleaning all the filters and doing a good siphon on the gravel.  Following that I would try doing daily water changes to try to keep clean fresh water in the tank.  After 5-7 days of clean water, then I would opt for adding in some IAL, Salt, and a final course of meds.  I would have Neoplex on order in case you need to change course here and try a different antibacterial option.

cc @Colu @Odd Duck

Edited February 22, 2023 by nabokovfan87

[Goldie Blue]

On 2/21/2023 at 11:57 PM, MoonMom said:

Sorry about the fish pics--here they are!

Awww, bless his sweet little fishy heart. I am sorry if it's already been posted, but do you have any photos of Moon before the fin rot? Have you ever noticed his fins being clear/see through? 

I notice you placed the Indian almond leaves directly in the tank, something else you might try is putting them in hot/boiling water (I brew mine in a beer stein lol) and then pour the cooled tannin tea directly into the water. 

Have you tested your water out of the tap? A last resort could be to get some RO water from a local fish store and try adding in the proper minerals etc. You can't get much cleaner than that, I've considered doing this before but have not been brave enough to try it.

On 2/21/2023 at 11:37 PM, MoonMom said:

what a development with your betta--it's got to feel defeating after so much time spent battling it and after good recovery made.

Tell me about it! It's really bizarre because everything was fine...no new changes no new decor or plants...nothing! Good news is he is looking like he is feeling better after 24 hours in the salt, I am doing another round tonight just to be sure. This fish has caused me so many gray hairs, he's lucky I love him so much. I was literally feeding him brine shrimp directly into his mouth tonight and siphoning out any strays from his QT tank so he didn't have to move or stress out lol. 

[Colu]

I would add aquarium salt 1 table spoon for 2 gallons  Indian almond leave and increase water changes for week if theirs no sign of improvement  after week then I would do a course of maracyn2 in food feeding a small amount twice a day for 7 days @MoonMom

[Odd Duck]

On 2/22/2023 at 12:15 AM, nabokovfan87 said:

Hm.

I get the feeling everything you're doing is 100% right and the water tests clean.  I would ask to double check nitrates, but I think everything should be ok.

If this was my tank, my situation, I would start by cleaning all the filters and doing a good siphon on the gravel.  Following that I would try doing daily water changes to try to keep clean fresh water in the tank.  After 5-7 days of clean water, then I would opt for adding in some IAL, Salt, and a final course of meds.  I would have Neoplex on order in case you need to change course here and try a different antibacterial option.

cc @Colu @Odd Duck

 

On 2/22/2023 at 5:09 AM, Colu said:

I would add aquarium salt 1 table spoon for 2 gallons  Indian almond leave and increase water changes for week if theirs no sign of improvement  after week then I would do a course of maracyn2 in food feeding a small amount twice a day for 7 days @MoonMom

Yep, all this.

[MoonMom]

On 2/22/2023 at 11:40 AM, Odd Duck said:

 

Yep, all this.

@Odd Duck So after the "cleanse" @nabokovfan87 and @Colu mentions, would you suggest a third and final course of the kanaplex before moving to neoplex, or jump right to the food with Maracyn? Or can/should Maracyn be put in the food alongside either the final round of Kanaplex or first round of Neoplex?

The medicated food mixture sounds intense! I will have to research how to do it. My poor little fish I've spent so much on different kinds of nutrient rich food for him but he seems to prefer simple flake food. He won't go for anything that sinks, and he's on the smaller side so if I give him freeze dried anything I usually have to cut it up into extremely tiny pieces and soak it or he just spits it out.

On 2/22/2023 at 1:28 AM, Goldie Blue said:

I am sorry if it's already been posted, but do you have any photos of Moon before the fin rot? Have you ever noticed his fins being clear/see through? 

I notice you placed the Indian almond leaves directly in the tank, something else you might try is putting them in hot/boiling water (I brew mine in a beer stein lol) and then pour the cooled tannin tea directly into the water. 

Have you tested your water out of the tap? A last resort could be to get some RO water from a local fish store and try adding in the proper minerals etc. You can't get much cleaner than that, I've considered doing this before but have not been brave enough to try it.

Hi Goldie--unfortunately I don't have any photos of "before"! He was very pretty though. I've never noticed fins being clear or see/through, even on the ends--but I always look as I read that can be a sign of fin regrowth. Thank. you for the tip on the almond leaves. I had no idea! And I've never tested water straight out of the tap but I guess I should know what that is like too... The idea of getting RO water and adding back proper minerals sounds like something that is way beyond my current skill set lol. It's amazing how many variables there are, and what can be done...

Thanks everyone. I'm flabbergasted to have access to this level of advice. It's just amazing how much you all know.

 

[nabokovfan87]

On 2/22/2023 at 1:54 PM, MoonMom said:

would you suggest a third and final course of the kanaplex before moving to neoplex, or jump right to the food with Maracyn? Or can/should Maracyn be put in the food alongside either the final round of Kanaplex or first round of Neoplex?

Neoplex / Kanaplex = Gram negative bacterial treatments
Maracyn = Gram positive bacteria treatment. 

I don't know if Maracyn 2 is as well, but note that Maracyn and Maracyn 2 are different antibiotics.

I recommend one antibiotic at a time, not dual dosing.

Let's wait for @Odd Duck or @Colu to clarify which to use next.... Neoplex or Maracyn2 as far as which gives your betta the best shot.

[Colu]

I would do another week of salt Indian almond leaves then I would follow up with a course of maracyn2 in food following the recipe I provided if your seeing no improvement 

[MoonMom]

Thanks all. Just to clarify, should I do a third and final round of Kanaplex before doing the tank cleanse and starting the maracyn2, or just jump right into the maracyn2 with food? 
 

appreciate the continued feedback so very much!! @Colu @nabokovfan87 @Odd Duck

[Colu]

If you part way through a course of kanaplex I would finish that than do the week of salt and Indian almond leaves and then if needed do maracyn2 in food @MoonMom

[MoonMom]

On 2/23/2023 at 10:17 AM, Colu said:

If you part way through a course of kanaplex I would finish that than do the week of salt and Indian almond leaves and then if needed do maracyn2 in food @MoonMom

Sorry! I probably said that wrong—I completed 2 rounds of Kanaplex but the box says you can do up to 3 if fish is tolerating and the condition hasn’t resolved, so I’m not midcourse I just haven’t done the possible 3rd and final course. 

[Colu]

On 2/23/2023 at 4:05 PM, MoonMom said:

Sorry! I probably said that wrong—I completed 2 rounds of Kanaplex but the box says you can do up to 3 if fish is tolerating and the condition hasn’t resolved, so I’m not midcourse I just haven’t done the possible 3rd and final course. 

No I wouldn't do another course of kanaplex I would do is a week of salt and almond leaves and then the course of maracyn2 in food if you still seeing no improvement 

[MoonMom]

Got it—thank you!!

[Odd Duck]

On 2/22/2023 at 3:54 PM, MoonMom said:

 So after the "cleanse" @nabokovfan87 and @Colu mentions, would you suggest a third and final course of the kanaplex before moving to neoplex, or jump right to the food with Maracyn? Or can/should Maracyn be put in the food alongside either the final round of Kanaplex or first round of Neoplex?

See how the fins look at that point, then decide if another round of treatment is needed.  You can treat with both Kanaplex and Maracyn-2 but you’ll be clearing a lot of the normal gut flora with that combo, so I usually recommend only one at a time unless I think there’s no other choice.  Even though the Kanaplex isn’t absorbed by the fish into the tissues, it still goes through the gut and can affect the gut flora.  Normal gut flora is a natural part of the immune system.  If we can treat and resolve the issue without completely wiping out the gut flora, that would be best.

[MoonMom]

@Odd Duck. @Colu @nabokovfan87 @Goldie Blue

Hi friends! Wanted to add a quick update on both Moon in his hospital tank and the larger planted tank, since you’ve all been so kind with your advice. With Moon, I added IAL and salt as directed and kept the level consistent through frequent water changes for about a week and a half or so. Then I made the medicated food per the recipe above with frozen bloodworms and maracyn2. Was nervous about it because Moon has historically been tempted with many foods and turns his nose up at all but the cheap salmon flakes—so I was crushed when he did not take my magic worm potion. Tried again that night. Tried again the next morning. Second night he hit it! I was so jazzed. He’s on day three of the medicated food and unfortunately still no change to his fin situation. It may have stopped progressing? It’s really hard to tell because there’s not much left. But certainly no new growth.

either way I’m thrilled he’s eating something more nutritious than those damn flakes. And @Goldie Blue he is loving his new tunnel—thank you!! And I just tonight put those sponge caps on my filter outflow in the flex as you recommended, right after I took the attached pics so you can’t see them yet. But they cut the flow way way down, just as you said they would.

No matter what happens after this cycle of feeding I kind of just want to move him to the bigger planted tank to give him a break and let him recover a bit from all the meds or just live whatever time he has left in a soft planted tank with some cheerful Rasboras friends. Is that a bad idea?

Speaking of cheerful Rasboras—I added 10 to the planted tank, did the trio for first 7 days and they seem to be thriving! They are so fun to watch… so active and pretty. We just added a group of Amanos yesterday and oh my goodness I had no idea little shrimp could be so hilarious and fun. They’re EVERYWHERE. Racing around, trying to compete with the Rasboras for food (and winning!), climbing all over each other… it’s nuts. My kid loves them.

Anyway, thanks for all the advice so far. It’s been put to good use and, I hope, will lead to happier healthier fishies on my end.

cheers all,

MM

 

 

[Odd Duck]

It’s great to hear he’s eating the medicated food.

Antibiotics are not an instant fix.  They can treat the infection, but the body’s own immune system has to work to clear up cellular debris and bacterial debris within the tissues.  If you take antibiotics you aren’t instantly fixed.  You have to take the full treatment (anywhere from 1 week to several weeks or months of treatment depending on the type of infection).  Give this little guy more time to heal before putting him back in the main tank so you can reduce the risk of all your fish getting sick.  I would suggest at least 1 full week of treatment and waiting to see what his fins do before you even consider moving him out of quarantine.  I usually don’t move fish out of quarantine until nobody has symptoms fir at least 30 days.  I’ve had fish in quarantine for 3-4 months before, just to be certain.  Especially if they’re going into tanks with multiple other fish or more expensive fish that I don’t want to risk.

[MoonMom]

On 3/17/2023 at 12:56 PM, Odd Duck said:

Give this little guy more time to heal before putting him back in the main tank so you can reduce the risk of all your fish getting sick.  I would suggest at least 1 full week of treatment and waiting to see what his fins do before you even consider moving him out of quarantine.

That’s probably sage advice. I was assuming I guess that he had no more bacteria/fungus/etc and was just not responding but that’s probably a simplistic view of whatever is going on. I’m keeping the medicated food refrigerated. Two questions for you: 1) how long would you keep a batch before making another? and 2) how long is it ok to keep feeding him the medicated food?

tia!

[Odd Duck]

I would only keep each batch about 3-4 days, then make a new batch.  How long to treat depends on which medication, what the condition is, how deep and extensive the problem is, and how long the patient has been sick.  In this specific situation with Maracyn-2, I would treat at least 7-14 days, depending on how he’s responding.