Fin Rot - At a Crossroads for Next Steps, Please Help!

[MoonMom]

Hello Good People,

Novice fish keepers here. Our little boy received a betta fish (Moon!) and 2.5 gallon tank kit as a gift. Took us a while to realize there's a lot more to it than daily feedings. We added a heater, a stone bubbler, started doing water changes and testing water, etc. It is likely the fin rot started before we even knew enough to notice and before we got water quality stabilized. The Facts:

• Dec. 18, find Aquarium Coop blog, begin medicating with Trio in accordance with all Coop guidance (i.e erythromycin, ichx, paracleanse; thorough tank cleaning, no food, no charcoal, bubbler on for one week). 
• Dec. 25, feed, insert charcoal. In spite of the advanced fin rot, the whole time Moon's been with us up to and including the Trio treatment Moon was lively, energetic, acting fine; great appetite.
• Dec. 26-30. Moon in terrible shape. Not interested in food. sinking to bottom. Body curved, breathing labored. We thought he was a goner--it was very distressing.
• Dec. 30 - Started treating with aquarium salt--high dosage (3 tbsp per gallon dosage). 20% water changes when needed (while replacing salt dosage for water removed). Within 2 days Moon was active again and eating. Has been lively and eating ever since.

At NO POINT during meds or salt treatment did Moon's fin rot stop progressing, let alone get better.

My question to you: at this point, do we start another round of Trio meds? Keep up the salt? Something else? Current water parameters:

• Temp: 78
• GH = 0
• No3 = 0
• No2 = 0
• CL = 0
• KH = 80
• PH = 7.2
• Ammonia = 0

Really appreciate any guidance. For what it's worth, we have a new 15 gallon Fluval tank planted with live plants and cycled (no other fish) that we wanted to move Moon into, but we were hesitant to do it before getting him healthy again.

Thanks in advance (truly) for any help/advice you fine folks might have.

Regards,

Moon's Mom

[KittenFishMom]

If you can get some Indian Almond Leaves (IALs on the forum) they can help a lot of different things. Torrey recommends 1 leaf per gallon of water they release doo stuff for the Betta that turn the water dark. This is normal, and will help the fish in many ways, including feeling hidden from predators and safe. Others know more than I do about fin rot.

This is always a good page to have book marked (I'm sure it covers fin rot. I will look for the spot. @Colu is wonderful and may have good advice:

 

[KittenFishMom]

I found this: will keep looking for other advice:

Posted November 11, 2022

  On 11/11/2022 at 10:00 AM, BAT said:

I agree with @xXInkedPhoenixX kanaplex has been a successful go to for my finrot. @Colu has a recipe for using in the food.  Also, I have found it works even better when I add a small amount of aquarium salt - 1:3 to 1:1 (tablespoon: gallon).

 

 

 

[Colu]

If it's advance fin rot I would do a course of kanaplex as most cases of fin rot are caused by gram negative bacterial and I would keep the salt at one table spoon for 3 gallons and add some Indian almond leaves as they have antibacterial and antifungal properties as @KittenFishMom suggested keep stable water parameters remember to only put the amount of salt back in that you take out so if you do a 50% water changes put half a table spoon of salt back in @MoonMom

On 1/26/2023 at 2:09 AM, KittenFishMom said:

I found this: will keep looking for other advice:

Posted November 11, 2022

  On 11/11/2022 at 10:00 AM, BAT said:

I agree with @xXInkedPhoenixX kanaplex has been a successful go to for my finrot. @Colu has a recipe for using in the food.  Also, I have found it works even better when I add a small amount of aquarium salt - 1:3 to 1:1 (tablespoon: gallon).

 

 

 

I have stopped recommending kanaplex in food after @Odd Duckpointed out it poorly absorbed by the intestinal tract so it's less effective than adding to the tank 

Edited January 26, 2023 by Colu

[MoonMom]

@Colu@KittenFishMom, thank you very much for the replies!

Have just now purchased some Indian Almond leaves and Kanaplex. Will do a water change to adjust the aquarium salt down to 1 table spoon per gallon (have been keeping at 3/gallon). Is it ok to just follow instructions on the Seachem Kanaplex package?

Also, posting pics as it doesn't seem like the pic I included with my original post came through.

Kind regards,

Elysha

[Odd Duck]

Do you have a pic from the side?  Your pics are also loading very small.  Load them at the highest resolution you can, please.  I can’t really see the fin rot in your current pics.  If you have pics saved to your photos, you can edit the margins ver slightly to prevent the forum software from flipping the orientation (if that’s an issue).  Then just “choose files” and select from your pics.

Kanaplex as label dose is where I start.  Maracyn-2 would be my next choice, but start with the Kanaplex.

And good job in doing your reading on better betta care!  We’ll try to help you get him through this.

[MoonMom]

Thanks @Odd Duck for the words of encouragement! You're exactly right--the forum software flipped my pics. Will try cropping and loading in higher res...

[Odd Duck]

Is there anything in the tank he could be catching his fins on?  Any floating tunnels, etc?  If there are, make sure to check for any rough edges.  I see fin damage, I can’t tell for sure if it’s actually fin rot from these pics.  I don’t see any redness or fuzzing to the margins.

Go ahead and get the Kanaplex in the water as labeled, redose as labeled, with water changes before every redose.  Remove any activated charcoal, Zeolite, or Purigen from the filter while dosing.  Be aware that the antibiotic can damage the beneficial bacteria so frequent water changes are necessary and will be necessary until well after the antibiotic is removed from the water and your biofiltration has time to recover (or he gets transferred into his fully cycled new tank).

You said you’ve already fully cycled his new tank.  How long ago was it set up?  Are you blind feeding to make sure the BB’s are maintained?

[MoonMom]

Hi @Odd Duck,

About a month and a half ago when I realized something was wrong with his fins and I started reading about fin rot I did a sweep of his tank for sharp things. I found a really large spike in the inside of his sleeping cave, which I filed down and away. Was hopeful this might have been the thing, but to be honest I have continued to see fin deterioration every few days since then and since both treatments. It starts with a tiny hole somewhere, and the hole gets bigger until it reaches the outer edge of the fin and becomes another ragged "fin spike". The thing is, he really is a chipper guy. I can't imagine this is all from flaring?

His new tank (the fluval 15 gal kit) was set up 4 weeks ago. Plants went in three weeks ago (Montecarlo, pearl weed, postegrom stellatus octopus, water sprite, vallisneria and something that has some pink to it but I can't recall the name--all "beginner" plants). I read that a sign the tank is cycled is new plant growth. If that's true, I've seen new plant growth on all, although they experienced some melt as they were delivered during the cold weather that swept the US so delivery was delayed. Don't know if that had something to do with the degree of melt I experienced or what. In any event, the new tank has gotten root tabs and easy green as directed for the plants I bought. Water is 76-78, the water parameters are exactly what I posted for my existing tank above except that KH and PH are slightly higher. There is beard algae starting and I'm not sure what to do about that/how serious it is.

Do you think we should transfer Moon to the new tank after his next round of treatment? Ideally I was waiting to get 5 or 6 lamb chop raspboras quarantined in the new tank and then add Moon when he was better, but if using the new tank just for Moon is going to give him a better shot then that's what we'll do. New fish at this point may be a bridge too far.

Thanks again!

 

[FLFishChik]

Sounds more like he is continually tearing his fins by what you described “hole getting bigger until it reaches outer edge”. Where as fin rot will usually cause redness and a sort of “fuzzing” like @Odd Duckmention and it slowly progresses towards the body. I’d do another sweep around the tank, maybe even replace his cave with a smoother one. I have that same cave for my betta and sometimes they can be rough like sandpaper, especially if it’s the ‘stone like’ version and not the plastic ones.

[Odd Duck]

On 1/28/2023 at 5:47 AM, FLFishChik said:

Sounds more like he is continually tearing his fins by what you described “hole getting bigger until it reaches outer edge”. Where as fin rot will usually cause redness and a sort of “fuzzing” like @Odd Duckmention and it slowly progresses towards the body. I’d do another sweep around the tank, maybe even replace his cave with a smoother one. I have that same cave for my betta and sometimes they can be rough like sandpaper, especially if it’s the ‘stone like’ version and not the plastic ones.

She has said it for me. There may very well be another spot he’s catching fins on. Once they damage fins, they can be more prone to more damage, so I would not encourage him to flare until everything is healed.

Some bettas will nip at their own fins so that automatically goes on the list of rule outs when you’re dealing with recurrent fin damage.  Offering more testing places might help with that. Offer them on multiple levels, something on every side even if the tank is crowded for now.

I would keep him in the smaller tank. Has you new tank gone through the nitrite spike and converting to nitrate appropriately?  New plant grown sounds like you’re probably in good shape but I would still put all the other fish in first and let them find hiding spots before popping a betta in there.  Typically, you want to add the “expected to be most aggressive” fish last.  Let’s see if we can get him healed before we ask him to swim farther. 

[FLFishChik]

On 1/30/2023 at 10:18 AM, Odd Duck said:

She has said it for me. There may very well be another spot he’s catching fins on. Once they damage fins, they can be more prone to more damage, so I would not encourage him to flare until everything is healed.

Some bettas will nip at their own fins so that automatically goes on the list of rule outs when you’re dealing with recurrent fin damage.  Offering more testing places might help with that. Offer them on multiple levels, something on every side even if the tank is crowded for now.

I would keep him in the smaller tank. Has you new tank gone through the nitrite spike and converting to nitrate appropriately?  New plant grown sounds like you’re probably in good shape but I would still put all the other fish in first and let them find hiding spots before popping a betta in there.  Typically, you want to add the “expected to be most aggressive” fish last.  Let’s see if we can get him healed before we ask him to swim farther. 

Agreed. A quarantine tank/tote with only the essentials like heater, sponge filter and an air stone and a small silk plant for a little while to see if the damage heals or if any new damage occurs would give you a better idea of what’s actually happening.

[MoonMom]

@Odd Duck @FLFishChik hi there--very glad to have both your responses, and thank you. I have wanted to do my diligence and read up on what you've recommended before wasting your time with more questions but work/life/not perfect understanding of water chemistry is leading to analysis paralysis. So I think I had better just go ahead with it for my poor fish's sake. That said:

• Water parameters are still exactly as listed above both in Moon's small tank and the "new" planted tank (15 gal. fluval kit)
• Planted tank has (as far as I can tell) blanket algae. I am including pics. Should this stop me from adding a couple of amano shrimp and the rasporas to get it ready for Moon to transfer into?
• It sounds like you think it may be fin "damage" vs. Fin "rot". That may be but I wanted to mention that he's overall lost probably 50 to 70 percent of his fins! With that in mind, should I plan to treat with kanaplex, salt and tea leaves as suggested by you all above or should I say eff it, it's fin damage and just let him ride in the new tank? Don't want to stress him unnecessarily, and like I said, he's a frisky lad and seems to have both his wits and his appetite. 
• @Odd Duckwhat do you mean when you ask whether "BB's are maintained"?

Thank you again so much.

Best regards,

MoonMom

 

[nabokovfan87]

On 1/25/2023 at 5:38 PM, MoonMom said:

• Dec. 18, find Aquarium Coop blog, begin medicating with Trio in accordance with all Coop guidance (i.e erythromycin, ichx, paracleanse; thorough tank cleaning, no food, no charcoal, bubbler on for one week). 
• Dec. 25, feed, insert charcoal. In spite of the advanced fin rot, the whole time Moon's been with us up to and including the Trio treatment Moon was lively, energetic, acting fine; great appetite.
• Dec. 26-30. Moon in terrible shape. Not interested in food. sinking to bottom. Body curved, breathing labored. We thought he was a goner--it was very distressing.
• Dec. 30 - Started treating with aquarium salt--high dosage (3 tbsp per gallon dosage). 20% water changes when needed (while replacing salt dosage for water removed). Within 2 days Moon was active again and eating. Has been lively and eating ever since.

At NO POINT during meds or salt treatment did Moon's fin rot stop progressing, let alone get better.

You need to use a med that will work for gram negative bacteria.  Specifically try kanaplex as a start.  You want to do a few water changes to clean out the salt, but the erythromycin works for gram positive bacteria issues, not gram negative. 

That's likely why you have ran into a hurdle here.  The specific disease you're fighting might need a bit more focused medication for fin rot.

After you have 3-4 water changes, then go ahead and dose in salt.  If you're confident in your ability to dose in salt and keep it the right dosage from change to change, the keep doing that.  If you're not, I usually opt for 3-4 50% WCs.

[Odd Duck]

The new pics do look like more fin loss than I realized.  For sure continue salt - carefully dosing only replacement water after water changes.  Also do the IAL tea/leaves, and for sure use the Kanaplex.

BB’s is beneficial bacteria (vs. BBS which is Baby Brine Shrimp).  And you want enough food going into the tank to maintain and decent bioload so when your fish go in, your tank doesn’t have to go through a minicycle.  I would probably work on getting the hair algae controlled a bit better before you add the fish.  Not that the hair algae in any way would harm the fish, but the algae treatment isn’t necessarily ideal for fish.  I would start with reducing light to 6 hours if you’re over that.  I would then use peroxide at 3 mls per gallon to spot treat the hair algae (I use a syringe to both measure and squirt the peroxide directly over the algae. Since you don’t have any livestock in the tank yet, you can dose even higher on the peroxide - up to 5 mls gallon and I might push it even above that to 10 mls/gallon but only with NO livestock.  Make sure you turn off all filters for 10-20 minutes when using peroxide.  You want the peroxide to have time to work but you also don’t want the peroxide running through your filter since it can damage the BB’s.  The peroxide will be diluted and degraded enough after 20 minutes that it’s safe to turn filters back on at that point.  I would treat every 2-3 days until the hair algae all looks dead - grey, pink, or red.  At that point, you can start adding livestock - Amano shrimp will really dig into the dead algae for you, they LOVE dead algae.  And it should be fine to add the rasboras at that point, too.  The Amanos have such a minimal bioload that a handful of them I would count as the same as 1-2 of the rasboras.  They will be excellent cleaners for you.  The rasboras will likely pick at some of the dead algae, but they will actually be picking at microfauna in the algae, not truly the algae itself.

If you still have spots of hair algae (or other algae) popping up, you can dose with livestock in the tank, but only at the lower dose and very carefully chasing away any livestock before dosing.

[Odd Duck]

By the way, if you edit your photos (I usually crop mine, even if it’s just a smidge off an edge) they will stay oriented correctly.  It’s something about how the forum software interacts with the photo software.

[MoonMom]

@nabokovfan87 @Odd Duck @FLFishChik @KittenFishMom

Hi everyone, thanks for your comments/advice.

What an exhausting rabbit hole! No sooner do I learn something or make a decision about what to do than I find I have 6 more variables to account for/learn about/potentially mess up. I never knew what an absolutely absorbing corner of the world this could be.

An update as of tonight after I've had a chance to source products and read more about what you all have shared:

• Moon's Tank: 
  • Cleaned, water change. Due to the water change, the 2.5 gallons now has 3 tbsp of aquarium salt total. I'll get down to 1tbsp/gal with the next water change
  • Removed charcoal filter and dosed Kanaplex as directed on package. Turned off UV and will keep stone bubbler on.
  • Will plan to run the full dose of Kanaplex (i.e. every 48 hours for 3 doses). Package says if fish is tolerating and symptoms haven't subsided after first course in extreme cases you can run another back-to-back course. I'll wait to see how it goes.
  • I've added an Indian almond leaf
• New 15 gal Planted Tank (no livestock) with hair/beard algae problem:
  • I removed what I could by hand and via water change, and turned off the UV for a few days.
  • Dosed with peroxide 5ml/gal tonight after turning UV and filter off for 30 mins.
  • Will plan to continue each day until algae dies off
  • Then plan to add 3-5 amano shrimp.
  • My pie in the sky goal was to do Khuli loaches and either ember tetras or lamb chop raspboras (eventually add the beta) but is that too much for my tank? Was thinking 3-5 amanos, 3 khuli loaches, 5-6 tetras or rasporas and my betta. Does that work bio load wise? I'm not married to this configuration, I just want the fish to be happy.

Thank you all. I've already learned so much! I appreciate your taking the time to respond.

-MoonMom

• •  

Should have perhaps included at the beginning of my last post: have any of you ever seen a fish recover from fin rot this severe? 🙁

[nabokovfan87]

On 2/5/2023 at 9:21 PM, MoonMom said:

Package says if fish is tolerating and symptoms haven't subsided after first course in extreme cases you can run another back-to-back course. I'll wait to see how it goes.

I would advise 2 doses minimum, might take more.  If you do need to do more, then you can give the fish a few days to recover, water changes, etc. and then go back into another treatment.  The wording on the package is basically advising you that if you are still having issues and you need to perform back to back dosing that you would use the fish as an indicator.  If the fish is acting normally, then you should be ok to do so.   Hopefully that phrasing makes sense!

On 2/5/2023 at 9:21 PM, MoonMom said:

have any of you ever seen a fish recover from fin rot this severe? 🙁

Yes, we have, and we've seen worse.  Keep doing the right things and see how it goes. 

On 2/5/2023 at 9:21 PM, MoonMom said:

My pie in the sky goal was to do Khuli loaches and either ember tetras or lamb chop raspboras (eventually add the beta) but is that too much for my tank?

You'd just have to verify temps are ok.  Some loaches don't want betta temps.

[Odd Duck]

Kuhli loaches are considered a shoaling species that likes 6 or more ideally.  They also tend to be high energy fish once they settle in and might be annoying for some bettas.

For me, I would do more of your mid-water fish, which ever you decide on.  Small tetras or rasboras would usually be fine and usually show more natural behaviors in larger groups.  I personally would tend to pick a favorite and get more of one species instead of a few of each species, but honestly, a smaller group of each would likely also be fine.  Just add gradually so your biofiltration stays in good shape.

You might consider getting one of the smaller species of “Kuhli” loach but the smaller species can be harder to find.  There are multiple species that get lumped under “Kuhli loach”.  The smallest I know of is Pangio cuneovirgata that only gets to about 2” long and would be a good size to get a full group of 6. There’s a couple species that only get to 3” long but I would tend to veer away from any of the larger species that get 4” or bigger for this size tank.

Kuhli loaches definitely prefer sand substrate since they like to dig and sand sift. I can’t remember if you told us what substrate you have in your larger tank.

[MoonMom]

@Odd DuckThat's really interesting and good info on the Kuhlis. I am s interested in them but It sounds like it may be better for the tank if we focus on the raspboras, the amano shrimp and the betta. I'd want to either do 6 of the small Kuhlis or maybe 10 of the rasporas rather than a smaller amount of both so that they can each be happy. 

Substrate in the planted tank is seachem Fluorite Black. Not sure whether that's fine enough to be good for the kuhlis anyway?

[Odd Duck]

On 2/6/2023 at 2:17 PM, MoonMom said:

@Odd DuckThat's really interesting and good info on the Kuhlis. I am s interested in them but It sounds like it may be better for the tank if we focus on the raspboras, the amano shrimp and the betta. I'd want to either do 6 of the small Kuhlis or maybe 10 of the rasporas rather than a smaller amount of both so that they can each be happy. 

Substrate in the planted tank is seachem Fluorite Black. Not sure whether that's fine enough to be good for the kuhlis anyway?

Might be borderline for bigger Kuhlis, probably not ideal for littles.  I think rasboras, Amanos, and your Betta are a very good combo.

[MoonMom]

Thanks @Odd Duck. I don’t want to push it as I’m new to this. The pangio cunevirgata have been fun to read about  (and I really just love how they look and am really curious about how they behave) but maybe it’s a good thing to look forward to if we ever have another tank with sand substrate. The main goal was to make a decent home for the kid’s fish so we’ll stick to that. I’m scratching my head thinking: if my mom knew what her “innocent” gift of a betta fish for a birthday turned into lol. It’s been fun along the ride and we’ve all learned so much already. My child is too young to benefit from this angle yet but the first thought that occurred to me in all this is: what a great way to teach little people chemistry…and an appreciation for nature and living things. There should be an aquarium of some sort in every classroom!

Thoughts on whether to add the Amanos and Rasporas at once? I wanted to treat them all with the Trio when the go in, but if they have to be added little by little I’m not sure how to stage for bio purposes…

cheers and thanks,

moonmom

 

 

 

[Odd Duck]

The amanos don’t need to be treated.  So if you’re treating in that tank instead of in a quarantine tank, I would treat the fish, do water changes to remove all meds, then add the Amanos.

[MoonMom]

On 2/7/2023 at 2:45 AM, Odd Duck said:

The amanos don’t need to be treated.  So if you’re treating in that tank instead of in a quarantine tank, I would treat the fish, do water changes to remove all meds, then add the Amanos.

Thank you @Odd Duck. That’s the direction we’ll take then for the newly planted tank. Raspboras treated with Trio then Amanos, then add Betta. The first course of Kanaplex in the Betta tank is over and Moon is still active/in good shape but I can’t say the fin rot has stopped and there’s definitely no new growth so I guess I’ll do another round and keep in the Indian almond lead and keep the salt steady at 1 tbsp per gallon. 

The planted tank is kind of a mystery. I dosed with 50ml for three days and algae is gone but plants have started melting. The pics I’m attaching now are from 3 days ago. The Val is now melted down to the roots.  Same with the Pearl Weed. Water sprite and mini Anubias are handing on. Monte Carlo—eh… Water parameters are: 

-Gh - 0

-NO3 -100

-NO2 -1

-CL - 0

-KH - 360

-pH - 8.4

-ammonia -0.5

wondering if I should just trim melted parts down to roots. Scrap altogether? Add Raspboras or wait until plant growth stabilizes?

What a wormhole…

thanks again all 🙂

MoonMom

 

[Goldie Blue]

As someone who knows your struggle (my betta lost almost his entire tail to fin rot) I have a couple questions I didn't see covered above. What kind of filter do you have in the small tank? Do you ever see him flaring at himself or anything in the tank?

The current in the tank could have an effect on him, my bettas fin rot started as stress from too much flow and him snagging his tail on a floating betta log. It only got worse and worse. My other betta developed fin rot from stress from seeing his reflection and constant flaring. I have to keep his light off 24/7 and added blackout to the 3 side walls, and now he is fine. 

I moved my betta into a Flex as well, and he has loved it and recovered nicely. A huge tip...get two prefilter sponges (I use the Fluval Edge prefilter sponges) and pop them on those two outtakes in the top right. The flow in that tank will blast your betta around the tank without them. 

I'd also suggest putting some pothos into that feeding hole up top and let the roots grow out. My guy loves hanging in those things all day. I also bought 3 or 4 smooth, 3D printed tubes to put up by the water surface for him to relax in. The floating log destroyed his fins, those things are trash.

Like you, I struggled through several rounds of treatment before I realized the flow and that stupid log were the cause. Sometimes it's not always obvious.