Stem plants rotting

[JJenna]

My tank has had plants in it for 3 months now and all have been thriving, well except for the tiger lily, which has sprouted only 1 new leaf. In the past month I started to notice some of my stem plants floating in the tank. Anywhere from 1-4" of the stem from the root end were just mushy and fell apart when I squeezed them. I've lost almost half of my stem plants to date and have been looking at possible causes for it. I'm not necessarily looking for you to solve this problem for me but I need some suggestions on a couple of things. I have not changed one single thing in my tank that would point to this loss. 

• I'm looking for some websites that have a more scientific bent regarding aquarium plants. Can anyone recommend some? The Barr Report and Planted Tank have yielded some possibilities. I don't want social media sites because .... well you know! I can still search out  information from the field I worked in and only scholarly information is suggested...you can train Google it seems. 
• Once I narrow down the possible culprits how long do you wait between making an adjustment and waiting to see effects? Two weeks? A month? 

For now I have snipped off the rotted part of the stem along with ~1" of viable stem and have them floating in my tank. 

[JoeQ]

On 1/10/2023 at 7:52 PM, JJenna said:

My tank has had plants in it for 3 months now and all have been thriving, well except for the tiger lily, which has sprouted only 1 new leaf. In the past month I started to notice some of my stem plants floating in the tank. Anywhere from 1-4" of the stem from the root end were just mushy and fell apart when I squeezed them. I've lost almost half of my stem plants to date and have been looking at possible causes for it. I'm not necessarily looking for you to solve this problem for me but I need some suggestions on a couple of things. I have not changed one single thing in my tank that would point to this loss. 

• I'm looking for some websites that have a more scientific bent regarding aquarium plants. Can anyone recommend some? The Barr Report and Planted Tank have yielded some possibilities. I don't want social media sites because .... well you know! I can still search out  information from the field I worked in and only scholarly information is suggested...you can train Google it seems. 
• Once I narrow down the possible culprits how long do you wait between making an adjustment and waiting to see effects? Two weeks? A month? 

For now I have snipped off the rotted part of the stem along with ~1" of viable stem and have them floating in my tank. 

I'm not really sure what you are looking for but I'd look at flow which not only distributes nutrients, but will also help to bring oxygen to the substrate resulting in more beneficial bacteria.  As opposed to no flow, stagnant substrate promoting decay.

Edit; Also the role of snails, bottom dwellers and sand sifter to prevent compaction. 

Edited January 11, 2023 by JoeQ
Added edit info

[nabokovfan87]

On 1/10/2023 at 4:52 PM, JJenna said:

My tank has had plants in it for 3 months now and all have been thriving, well except for the tiger lily, which has sprouted only 1 new leaf. In the past month I started to notice some of my stem plants floating in the tank. Anywhere from 1-4" of the stem from the root end were just mushy and fell apart when I squeezed them. I've lost almost half of my stem plants to date and have been looking at possible causes for it. I'm not necessarily looking for you to solve this problem for me but I need some suggestions on a couple of things. I have not changed one single thing in my tank that would point to this loss. 

Probably due to missing something.  I know that seems foolishly simplistic, but what I mean is that the plant is trying to grow, cannot do so because it's missing some piece of the puzzle.  Usually this is going to be carbon, light, or nutrients.  Most stems will do well as long as they don't have algae on them.  Were you seeing any specific deficiency signs? Were you dosing in root tabs or anything to target feed them?  Are they new and simply melted right away in your water or was this a slow progression? (Slow progression meaning, deficiency of some kind and the plant tried to use old growth to feed new growth)

On 1/10/2023 at 4:52 PM, JJenna said:

• I'm looking for some websites that have a more scientific bent regarding aquarium plants. Can anyone recommend some? The Barr Report and Planted Tank have yielded some possibilities. I don't want social media sites because .... well you know! I can still search out  information from the field I worked in and only scholarly information is suggested...you can train Google it seems. 
• Once I narrow down the possible culprits how long do you wait between making an adjustment and waiting to see effects? Two weeks? A month? 

I wish I had some good resources, but I don't have one to pass along, unfortunately.  My best advice would be to look on amazon for actual literature guides and books for aquatic plants.

I usually give things 2-3 weeks before making a secondary tweak.  Sometimes it's really, really obvious you turned the knob the wrong way and that is easy to reverse that change. (example for me being the light was too high and that was noticeable after 3-5 days)

[Ohad]

Honestly in my experience 3 months is a very short time.

Especially if you have no co2 . It just takes time and patience 

Meanwhile you can add more plants or get some snails or shrimp . For me adding plants or snails, (trumpet snails are magic) usually balances thing faster than light adjustment or nutrients.  Nature does it thing .

I am just a hobbyist but this is my experience 

[JJenna]

On 1/10/2023 at 9:07 PM, JoeQ said:

I'd look at flow

Thanks for your input. I have a spray bar the length of the tank and have great flow, I've looked at this and there are virtually no dead spots, with the exception of the small area under the pre-filter sponge. 

On 1/10/2023 at 9:26 PM, nabokovfan87 said:

Usually this is going to be carbon, light, or nutrients

Appreciate your help! With the exception of the Scarlet Temple, all of my choices were low light tolerant due to my inexperience. There is a distinct possibility that it could be not enough light to reach the base, but when light is increased I see a corresponding response of more algae growth. I will check into insufficient carbon and micronutrients. I do not use root tabs as they are water column plants. All the plants have been in the tank since I planted in November, '22. I've had some stem plants reach the surface and have trimmed them back so they do not block light from the other plants. I will look at books, any references you have would be helpful. 

 

On 1/10/2023 at 11:22 PM, Ohad said:

For me adding plants or snails, (trumpet snails are magic) usually balances thing faster than light adjustment or nutrients

Thanks for the reply. Why do you recommend trumpet snails and how many would you start with? Currently I have 7 mystery snails, 5 amanos and multiple neocardinia along with the inevitable pest snails. It's just strange that everything was thriving and growing then boom. Don't sell yourself short, personal experience is invaluable!  

[JoeQ]

On 1/11/2023 at 9:50 AM, JJenna said:

Thanks for your input. I have a spray bar the length of the tank and have great flow, I've looked at this and there are virtually no dead spots, with the exception of the small area under the pre-filter sponge. 

Not just flow, look towards flow and soil compaction. 

[Ohad]

Trumpet snails will go into the substrate, mix it up, and deliver air and nutrition to the roots. They transform a planted tank in my experiences. Just be aware even if you only start with two, you will end up with many. They live underground most of the time, so it's not a big deal for me, but some people hate it. 

[JoeQ]

On 1/11/2023 at 10:09 AM, Ohad said:

Trumpet snails will go into the substrate, mix it up, and deliver air and nutrition to the roots. They transform a planted tank in my experiences. Just be aware even if you only start with two, you will end up with many. They live underground most of the time, so it's not a big deal for me, but some people hate it. 

Love me some trumpet snails, a key sign you are over feeding your tank is when you see trumpet snails all over the glass.

[flyingcow]

In my case, my stem plant debacles were entirely related to light. When I increased light, stem plants stopped dying. they're still growing slowly, but I'm battling algae again, so I'm trying to strike a balance.

[Seattle_Aquarist]

On 1/10/2023 at 4:52 PM, JJenna said:

My tank has had plants in it for 3 months now and all have been thriving, well except for the tiger lily, which has sprouted only 1 new leaf. In the past month I started to notice some of my stem plants floating in the tank. Anywhere from 1-4" of the stem from the root end were just mushy and fell apart when I squeezed them. I've lost almost half of my stem plants to date and have been looking at possible causes for it. I'm not necessarily looking for you to solve this problem for me but I need some suggestions on a couple of things. I have not changed one single thing in my tank that would point to this loss. 

• I'm looking for some websites that have a more scientific bent regarding aquarium plants. Can anyone recommend some? The Barr Report and Planted Tank have yielded some possibilities. I don't want social media sites because .... well you know! I can still search out  information from the field I worked in and only scholarly information is suggested...you can train Google it seems. 
• Once I narrow down the possible culprits how long do you wait between making an adjustment and waiting to see effects? Two weeks? A month? 

For now I have snipped off the rotted part of the stem along with ~1" of viable stem and have them floating in my tank. 

Hi @JJenna

I see no mention of what you are dosing for nutrients (amounts and frequency), lighting (type & duration), or water parameters (pH. dKH, dGH, nitrates ppm).  Also tank size would be helpful.  Could you please provide more information please along with a couple of photos of affected plants?  -Roy

Edited January 11, 2023 by Seattle_Aquarist

[JJenna]

On 1/11/2023 at 10:09 AM, Ohad said:

Trumpet snails will go into the substrate

Thanks Ohad, will they burrow in flourite? 

 

On 1/11/2023 at 10:55 AM, flyingcow said:

my stem plant debacles were entirely related to light

I read all your posts and they were really helpful. I think I'm pretty much in the same position as you, but want to check out other causes, because I still have not found a balance with my lighting. 

 

On 1/11/2023 at 11:24 AM, Seattle_Aquarist said:

Could you please provide more information

I have a 40-gallon breeder. The substrate is dark flourite. I dose the recommended amount of EG and Iron once a week. I put root tabs under my non-stem plants. I have a Fluval 3.0 using Bentley's Day Sim at 50% for 8 hours. Parameters are stable (meaning the same readings for the past 2 months)- Ph 7.8, GH 8, KH 6, Ammonia-0, Nitrites 0, Nitrates 5ppm. No photos as I have already trimmed the rotted portions away. The remainder of the plants that I cut rot off of appears healthy (not mushy). Tank is understocked...21 endlers, 1 guppy (joined the Endler group accidentally at the time of netting at lfs), 3 hillstreams, 6 otos, 7 mystery snails, 5 amanos, an unknown amount of pest snails, and neocardinia. 

 

On 1/11/2023 at 9:58 AM, JoeQ said:

soil compaction

 How do you evaluate this? I can easily displace the substrate with tweezers or fingers. Would Flourite settle that much in only 3 months? 

[flyingcow]

On 1/11/2023 at 12:01 PM, JJenna said:

I read all your posts and they were really helpful. I think I'm pretty much in the same position as you, but want to check out other causes, because I still have not found a balance with my lighting. 

 

Let me know if you unlock the secrets! I'm battling hair algae like none other and cyano in one of my tanks! It ain't perfect, but at least my plants stopped dying!

[Mmiller2001]

Which stems? And you are low on nutrients based on the information you posted.

[JoeQ]

On 1/11/2023 at 12:01 PM, JJenna said:

How do you evaluate this? I can easily displace the substrate with tweezers or fingers. Would Flourite settle that much in only 3 months? 

I'm not sure how to evaluate this, all I know is it was an issue for me when using fluorite sand. Which presented its self as limited growth and the plants had brown/decaying roots.

Edit: this was earlier in my tanks life, when there wasn't much of an eco system.

Edited January 11, 2023 by JoeQ
Added edit info

[Seattle_Aquarist]

On 1/11/2023 at 9:01 AM, JJenna said:

I have a 40-gallon breeder. The substrate is dark flourite. I dose the recommended amount of EG and Iron once a week. I put root tabs under my non-stem plants. I have a Fluval 3.0 using Bentley's Day Sim at 50% for 8 hours. Parameters are stable (meaning the same readings for the past 2 months)- Ph 7.8, GH 8, KH 6, Ammonia-0, Nitrites 0, Nitrates 5ppm. No photos as I have already trimmed the rotted portions away. The remainder of the plants that I cut rot off of appears healthy (not mushy). Tank is understocked...21 endlers, 1 guppy (joined the Endler group accidentally at the time of netting at lfs), 3 hillstreams, 6 otos, 7 mystery snails, 5 amanos, an unknown amount of pest snails, and neocardinia.

Hi @JJenna

This helps quite a bit.  If you are on municipal water could you please indicate location (i.e. Seattle, WA) and utility name so I can check for water analysis?  Also, pictures please when you have an opportunity.  Thank you, -Roy

[JJenna]

On 1/11/2023 at 12:08 PM, flyingcow said:

Let me know if you unlock the secrets!

I did do Reverse Respiration for BBA and that did an amazing job. 

[JJenna]

On 1/11/2023 at 12:31 PM, Mmiller2001 said:

Which stems? And you are low on nutrients based on the information you posted.

Brazilian Pennywort, Water Sprite, Green Camboba, Bacopa Caroliniana, Moneywort, Wisteria. Can you explain further about why and what nutrients I am low on?

 

On 1/11/2023 at 12:58 PM, Seattle_Aquarist said:

If you are on municipal water could you please indicate location

Municipal water, Indianapolis, Citizen's Energy. R/O water. 

[Mmiller2001]

On 1/11/2023 at 1:26 PM, JJenna said:

Can you explain further about why and what nutrients I am low on?

You are probably low on all of them. You posted your nitrates are 5ppm. You will need to dose the water column heavier regardless of root tabs. I would push towards maintaining around 15 to 20ppm nitrates from the Easy Green dosing.

After correcting the nutrition issue, you can move on to other issues if the plants don't improve. Nutrients are the simplest to get correct. 

[Seattle_Aquarist]

On 1/11/2023 at 12:26 PM, JJenna said:

Municipal water, Indianapolis, Citizen's Energy. R/O water. 

Hi @JJenna

Are you using a mix of tap water and RO water or 100% RO water? 

I see a lot of 'stones' in your tank....are those Ohko stone (dragon stone)?

Last question, are you doing weekly water changes?
 -Roy

[JJenna]

On 1/11/2023 at 4:13 PM, Mmiller2001 said:

Nutrients are the simplest to get correct.

That makes sense, I'll put that at the top of the list. I had been doing a double dose of EG initially and when I started to see new growth I dialed it back to recommended dosage.

 

On 1/11/2023 at 4:57 PM, Seattle_Aquarist said:

Are you using a mix of tap water and RO water or 100% RO water? 

I see a lot of 'stones' in your tank....are those Ohko stone (dragon stone)?

Last question, are you doing weekly water changes?

100% R/O water. Yes, they are Ohko stones. I was initially concerned about them and what they might do in a tank, but everything I read said they're inert and would not affect parameters. I do 10-15% water changes weekly. 

[Seattle_Aquarist]

On 1/11/2023 at 3:40 PM, JJenna said:

That makes sense, I'll put that at the top of the list. I had been doing a double dose of EG initially and when I started to see new growth I dialed it back to recommended dosage.

 

100% R/O water. Yes, they are Ohko stones. I was initially concerned about them and what they might do in a tank, but everything I read said they're inert and would not affect parameters. I do 10-15% water changes weekly. 

Hi @JJenna

That is interesting, if you are using 100% RO water (which should be 0 dKH and 0 DGH) where is the 8 dGH and 6 dKH coming from?  Possibly the Seachem Flourite which has about 527 ppm of Ca and 1490 ppm of Mg has been adding calcium and magnesium to the water column.  Try increasing the amount of RO water you use for water changes to 20% and see if you can get the dGH down to 6.0 dGH.

I too have a Fluval 3.0 and at 50% output I measured PAR@125 at the substrate level with a similar aquarium depth as your 40 gallon breeder.  This is very, very high light especially with the Anubias and Java Ferns (Leptochilus pteropus, previously Microsorum pteropus) which are low to moderate light plants.  I would suggest setting the Fluval 3.0 output to 33% which will provide about PAR@85 at the substrate level for your 40 breeder.  (All PAR reading taken with a calibrated Apogee MQ-510 PAR meter / no glass top)

I agree with @Mmiller2001that more nutrients are needed.  I would dose the Easy Green 2X per week and monitor the nitrate ppm levels.  Somewhere between 10-20 ppm should provide better growth and may minimize the stem rotting you are experiencing.  If not, stem rot can be the result of insufficient Mg but before I suggest you add Mg to your tank try the suggestions above for 4 weeks and see if there is improvement in the health of the plants in your tank.  -Roy

[JJenna]

On 1/11/2023 at 7:01 PM, Seattle_Aquarist said:

if you are using 100% RO water (which should be 0 dKH and 0 DGH) where is the 8 dGH and 6 dKH coming from

It is 0 coming from the tap. It came from initially chasing the parameters early on by dosing with Equilibrium over zealously. This caused a horrible spike and I learned my lesson about patience in fish keeping. I threw the jar of Equilibrium away when this happened and have been doing small water changes weekly to bring the gh/kh down without crashing. I'm happy with where they are but know they will continue to drop so I will have to adjust, maybe adding regular tap water treated with Prime to keep the levels stable.