Stunting

[Cinnebuns]

On the topic of stunting, it's generally assumed it is bad for the fish and leads to health problems and such. I tend to go in this direction too but I also see some evidence that this may not be true. It could be different in different species as well. The evidence I see is completely anecdotal. Basically, there's articles around the web stating that various people have had stunted goldfish live longer lives than most non-stunted goldfish. Sometimes up for 40+ years!  It makes me wonder if anyone has ever done a study on stunting and what exactly it does to a fish's body and if it really is as awful as we think. I error towards the side that it is bad and should be avoided, but it makes me think. 

[Fish Folk]

Can you elaborate a bit on exactly what you mean by "stunting"? If you are referring to a genetically inbred trait, such as the Balloon-variety of a number of species, that is one sort of conversation. If you are referring to the incidental dwarf result of a fish that stops its growth prematurely, that is a different conversation.

[nabokovfan87]

I definitely believe it's a real thing.  some fish just literally can't grow and internally their organs compress into one another when there's not enough space.  I've never experienced it, but I am worried about it happening when I lost my ability to have the 75G up and running.

https://cafishvet.com/fish-health-disease/fish-stunting/

 Part 1 of the study: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6856111/

Part 2 of this study:
https://www.researchgate.net/publication/337097902_Effect_of_Duration_of_Stunting_on_Physiological_Recovery_of_Stunted_Milkfish_Under_Field_Conditions_A_Relevant_Farmers'_Advisory
 

https://www.biorxiv.org/content/10.1101/2020.04.04.025049v1.full

Both of these seem pretty technical, might be helpful with the topic. 

[Cinnebuns]

On 12/9/2022 at 9:41 PM, Fish Folk said:

Can you elaborate a bit on exactly what you mean by "stunting"? If you are referring to a genetically inbred trait, such as the Balloon-variety of a number of species, that is one sort of conversation. If you are referring to the incidental dwarf result of a fish that stops its growth prematurely, that is a different conversation.

I am referring to the 2nd. Like a goldfish or a common pleco kept in a 10 gallon tank and therefore is smaller than it otherwise would be. 

[Flumpweesel]

I think there is a difference in stunting than growth retardation. If you limit the food to the fish they grow slowly but don't necessarily stunt . My goldfish lived for years in a 60litre tank with irregular feeding but more doubled it size in under a year once settled at into the 240 litre  with better feeding.

[Cinnebuns]

On 12/10/2022 at 5:12 PM, Flumpweesel said:

I think there is a difference in stunting than growth retardation. If you limit the food to the fish they grow slowly but don't necessarily stunt . My goldfish lived for years in a 60litre tank with irregular feeding but more doubled it size in under a year once settled at into the 240 litre  with better feeding.

I'm talking specifically about when their growth is slowed because of the hormone they release to slow or even stop their growth when in a small tank. It's widely spread that it is bad for their health as their outsides stop growing but their insides continue which leads to many health problems including suffocation. I am questioning the validity of that because of the evidence of so many long lived goldfish who were stunted in this way. It seems to be both sides of the argument are built on anecdotal evidence which is never strong evidence. I also tend to question if this is a hormone the fish evolved to have, if it's really all that bad for them. 

On 12/9/2022 at 9:42 PM, nabokovfan87 said:

I definitely believe it's a real thing.  some fish just literally can't grow and internally their organs compress into one another when there's not enough space.  I've never experienced it, but I am worried about it happening when I lost my ability to have the 75G up and running.

https://cafishvet.com/fish-health-disease/fish-stunting/

 Part 1 of the study: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC6856111/

Part 2 of this study:
https://www.researchgate.net/publication/337097902_Effect_of_Duration_of_Stunting_on_Physiological_Recovery_of_Stunted_Milkfish_Under_Field_Conditions_A_Relevant_Farmers'_Advisory
 

https://www.biorxiv.org/content/10.1101/2020.04.04.025049v1.full

Both of these seem pretty technical, might be helpful with the topic. 

I will admit I have been a little busy and haven't read these studies yet but ty for sharing them. I do intend to read through through providing ADHD will allow me to lol. Sometimes it allows me to and sometimes not. 

[nabokovfan87]

On 12/10/2022 at 3:46 PM, Cinnebuns said:

I will admit I have been a little busy and haven't read these studies yet but ty for sharing them. I do intend to read through through providing ADHD will allow me to lol. Sometimes it allows me to and sometimes not. 

I totally understand, I have been all over the place this month/week/yesterday/today.

I was reading about salt research studies yesterday. I do think these links might be the good place for your question to be answered.  Hormones affecting growth and so many things go into it, from the brief look I had when diving into the articles.

Feel better @Cinnebuns

[rockfisher]

I think the evidence is fairly strong that since most fish are indeterminate growers, meaning they grow there entire life that keeping them in spaces that don’t allow the bodies to grow in the way they were meant to grow is almost the definition of harm. That said I’m not say I have in kept a fish in a smaller tank than it should have been at so point and I think most fish keeper have at some point. I don’t think it’s good to do this as stated above they bodies still grow, just not in a way we can see the harm. If I wear a waist trainer ever day and you can’t see the damage to the insides without some kind of imaging ct,X-ray,mri, or other test. But they are going to show damage. With fish if you grow them in an area that is to small over generations the fish that are best suited to survive will reproduce and over can eventually be suit to grow in that size area with no problems. However a very number of generations and I can’t say but at some point natural selection, selects the best traits to live in the environment the previous generations had to endure. It’s done all the time with other animals like chickens, pigs, cows, but normally not in a forced downsizing. Smaller breeds of cows chicken dogs and cats are selected because there are small and mated to other small mates until they are of the size wanted. The other thing is most of these animals are not considered indeterminate growers. I don’t think keeping fish in a smaller tank is a good way to do this. On reason is you are not really selecting for the best traits to make those fish smaller but only the ones that surviving fish have. I personally have a hard time with just because we all know stories of a fair fish living in a 1 gal bowl for 10 years that that fish is having a good life. It’s still growing even though it’s slow. It’s body is released chemicals to slow grow and releaseing hormones to change the way dna and rna replicate and select genes to be activated to keep the fish alive is a good thing. That said people have messed with animals since well since there have been people. I try not to keep any animals that grows for it entire life in something to small. There growth is never totally stopped. It can become almost immeasurable but over a long enough study period(mainly 10’s of years) some part of the fish is growing. 

[Cinnebuns]

On 12/10/2022 at 8:37 PM, rockfisher said:

If I wear a waist trainer ever day and you can’t see the damage to the insides without some kind of imaging ct,X-ray,mri, or

This is a good analogy ty!  I might use this sometime!

 

And to be clear, I am not advocating for stunting. I'm simply interested in the studies that have been done for it because there are people who have some compelling antidotal evidence that it may not harm as much as we think. Part of this is to educate myself about how to have conversations with people who argue stunting doesn't hurt. Part is to have the conversation about where the facts truly lie. 

[rockfisher]

I’m sorry I didn’t think you were advocating for that. I tend to be more conversational when expressing an a opinion. The I idea of it is great. There are a number ways grow can be controlled in plants. On golf courses/turf Bermuda grass we used a lot of GA(Gibberellic acid) to short the long between the nodes. Which basically makes the grass grow shorter and tighter together. Which means less mowing and better turf. It’s used in a lot of plants including marijuana production. So that type of”stunting” is a positive in those industries and actually makes the plants stronger. So I can see what you are interested in from plants and that there could be positives and less or no damage when done in certain conditions. I think it’s great to educate and learn all the time. Rarely are things black and white and there most things are are not all positive and negative. Thank you for posting. Im going to keep following because it is a very interesting topic. Thank you for posting about it.

[tolstoy21]

On 12/11/2022 at 1:48 AM, rockfisher said:

It’s used in a lot of plants including marijuana production. So that type of”stunting” is a positive in those industries and actually makes the plants stronger.

In bonsai they call this 'ramification', as the shortening of the distance between nodes makes for more branching. It's the same effect you see when trimming a boxwood hedge. The hedge grows dense in reaction to being cut in so many new places, which also branch and are then cut again the next time you trim. I found you can do the same with pogostemon octopus. If you trim it like a hedge, it grows very dense and thick.

But as an analogy, I'm not sure this translates to the animal kingdom since you're not stunting a plant, just causing it branch more in a more dense fashion. Pruned correctly and fed correctly makes for a very shapely and beautiful plant.

I grow a lot of roses as another hobby (been doing it for a long time now). And roses are the same. Pruning down to the nodes where you want to encourage growth and feeding properly leads to a much healthier, better looking plant. 

A lot of plants will exhibit what's known as 'apical growth' when means they want to grow from their tops (or ends). Pruning them just changes where they grow from and their ultimate shape and shortens the distance between branching. I guess an analogy to the animal kingdom would be if you could cut a dog's leg off at the knee. The leg would stop growing, and then two more legs would sprout out of that joint!  🙂  Ok, maybe that's a terrible idea!

Edited December 11, 2022 by tolstoy21

[tooManyPumps]

Quote

I'm talking specifically about when their growth is slowed because of the hormone they release to slow or even stop their growth when in a small tank.

This is one of those myths that spread because of an ounce of truth in specific scenarios/species.  I think there may be a short list of fish do this, like Salmon, but most aquarium fish do not.  People like to say this about Oscars and other big cichlids, however:
It's important to note that some fish clearly don't work this way, for example Tilapia (cichlids farmed as food) can grow to large sizes seemingly regardless of stocking density provided water quality is adequate**. source

I believe what you often have in this scenario is a combination of competing goals: the aquarist imagines their oscar to be a fish capable of living in 40G, and they want to maintain water quality without excessive maintenance effort, the aquarist thus under-feeds the fish chronically (a growing oscar needs absurd amounts of food, easy to underfeed). Another possibility is the 40G oscar aquarist sacrifices water quality by providing adequate food for a healthy, growing oscar, leading to rapid waste buildup. Either scenario will contribute to stunting.

IMO Its just much easier for hobbyists to blame some unproven hormone theory than their own fishkeeping choices (40G is undersized), or something more subtle like genetics *shrug*

Edited December 11, 2022 by tooManyPumps

[rockfisher]

On 12/11/2022 at 9:03 AM, tolstoy21 said:

In bonsai they call this 'ramification', as the shortening of the distance between nodes makes for more branching. It's the same effect you see when trimming a boxwood hedge. The hedge grows dense in reaction to being cut in so many new places, which also branch and are then cut again the next time you trim. I found you can do the same with pogostemon octopus. If you trim it like a hedge, it grows very dense and thick.

But as an analogy, I'm not sure this translates to the animal kingdom since you're not stunting a plant, just causing it branch more in a more dense fashion. Pruned correctly and fed correctly makes for a very shapely and beautiful plant.

I grow a lot of roses as another hobby (been doing it for a long time now). And roses are the same. Pruning down to the nodes where you want to encourage growth and feeding properly leads to a much healthier, better looking plant. 

A lot of plants will exhibit what's known as 'apical growth' when means they want to grow from their tops (or ends). Pruning them just changes where they grow from and their ultimate shape and shortens the distance between branching. I guess an analogy to the animal kingdom would be if you could cut a dog's leg off at the knee. The leg would stop growing, and then two more legs would sprout out of that joint!  🙂  Ok, maybe that's a terrible idea!

Thanks. I wanted to make clear I have not used marijuana it produced but it will cause female plants to grow male flowers so the same plants can pollinate. I used it in turf production. I also do have issues that are hard to get past when talking about plants and transferring that to animals. 

[Cinnebuns]

On 12/11/2022 at 8:03 AM, tolstoy21 said:

you can do the same with pogostemon octopus. If you trim it like a hedge, it grows very dense and thick.

I didn't expect to learn this here but ty!  I plan on getting some pogostemon octopus soon! 

On 12/11/2022 at 9:02 AM, tooManyPumps said:

People like to say this about Oscars and other big cichlids, however

I just saw this recently actually on Facebook. Someone got a bunch of blood parrots thinking they were goldfish. 6 now full sized in what appears to be a 40 gallon tank. Needless to say it doesn't look pretty right now. 

[tolstoy21]

On 12/11/2022 at 4:30 PM, Cinnebuns said:

I didn't expect to learn this here but ty!  I plan on getting some pogostemon octopus soon! 

Yeah, I used to go in and trim it back maybe half way with a pair of scissors.

This was after it had been pretty well established, and was in a 'hi-tech' tank.

It used to come in sooooo thick.  Wished I had taken pictures of it.

Buy my experience with it is when it's actively growing and coming in strong and healthy, it responds well to being cut back. If you prune it too high, that's where it will thicken.

Edited December 11, 2022 by tolstoy21

[tooManyPumps]

On 12/11/2022 at 1:30 PM, Cinnebuns said:

I just saw this recently actually on Facebook. Someone got a bunch of blood parrots thinking they were goldfish. 6 now full sized in what appears to be a 40 gallon tank. Needless to say it doesn't look pretty right now. 

there's a somewhat popular youtube guy I was just watching. has a tiny box of a fish room and no tanks larger than 55g, he loves keeping several large cichlids in each tank and I just 🤦‍♂️ 
 

If you have a business or a rescue I can see why this might happen but for a hobbyist it is just selfish.

[Cinnebuns]

On 12/12/2022 at 9:59 AM, tooManyPumps said:

there's a somewhat popular youtube guy I was just watching. has a tiny box of a fish room and no tanks larger than 55g, he loves keeping several large cichlids in each tank and I just 🤦‍♂️ 
 

If you have a business or a rescue I can see why this might happen but for a hobbyist it is just selfish.

The place was a business but not a fish store like I'm sure you meant. It's a nail place that has kept the parrots for years.  At first I'm sure the size was fine but not anymore. 

[The endler guy]

On 12/9/2022 at 10:41 PM, Fish Folk said:

Can you elaborate a bit on exactly what you mean by "stunting"? If you are referring to a genetically inbred trait, such as the Balloon-variety of a number of species, that is one sort of conversation. If you are referring to the incidental dwarf result of a fish that stops its growth prematurely, that is a different conversation.

*ballon varieties happen in the wild and aren’t immediately killed*