My bettas condition has worsened

[Rebirth]

My betta originally got popeye. I treated and it went away, but got white spots on her eyes right after. I was told here it was probably cloudy eye which seemed correct to me. I treated with salt according to box instructions. It’s been about a week. I changed water every two days by 50% and put appropriate amount of salt back. I under salted according to instruction to be careful. The photo with the red eye is what I awoke to. Looks like a busted blood vessel. Other than the cloudy eye she has been swimming and eating Until today. Any help would be great. I’d do anything to save her.

 

background: she’s in a 5 gallon tank with two snails. It gets 50% water changes every two weeks. It’s cycled. She gets a mix of dry and frozen and occasional peas. The tank was heavily planted, repens had carpeted. It was a very healthy tank for the past two years. No problems. I decided to take 75% of plants out. Shortly after is when she got sick. I feel I caused an imbalance and should have changed water more shortly after removing plants. It’s my fault.

[TheSwissAquarist]

@Colu @Marilyn and @xXInkedPhoenixX seem to either know a lot about sicknesses or have a lot of experience with bettas

Good luck!

[Rebirth]

Thank for tagging them. I’m at a loss what to do next. I changed 50% water again.

[TheSwissAquarist]

On 10/18/2022 at 6:46 PM, Rebirth said:

I’m at a loss what to do

It’s OK, we all have that moment!

Welcome to the forum btw!

[xXInkedPhoenixX]

I appreciate that @TheSwissAquarist gives me so much credit but I am no expert. Bettas are very hard fish to keep- but I bet I got the mention because I currently have 4 I'm trying to rehabilitate after their poor care at a pet store. 

Speaking from some experience- If I were in your shoes I'd get a hold of some Kanaplex and treat right away. Popeye is caused from poor water quality when both eyes are involved so at some point something went wonky and then you often have bacterial infection. Salt may help but Kanaplex in the water ASAP may do a world of good. Water MUST be pristine- NO ammonia or nitrite! Low nitrate I recommend. I'd search the tank for anything dead or dying from inhabitants to plant material. Don't overclean, but see what initially caused this. I'm very sorry @Rebirth I hope you can get your Betta better. 

Edited October 18, 2022 by xXInkedPhoenixX

[xXInkedPhoenixX]

@Rebirth you may also want to consider epsom salt baths for no more than 15 mins a day for a week or so to help with swelling- but if it stresses the betta more after you try it once or twice I'd just do what I first advised. 

If I remember correctly, half a tablespoon per gallon NO additives just Epsom. I mix up a gallon with the salt in a jug and just pour a little into a container at a time for the soaks. The bottle lasts the duration of the treatment typically with a small fish and container. I would hand catch the Betta to try and reduce and further trauma. 

[Rebirth]

On 10/18/2022 at 1:05 PM, xXInkedPhoenixX said:

I appreciate that @TheSwissAquarist gives me so much credit but I am no expert. Bettas are very hard fish to keep- but I bet I got the mention because I currently have 4 I'm trying to rehabilitate after their poor care at a pet store. 

Speaking from some experience- If I were in your shoes I'd get a hold of some Kanaplex and treat right away. Popeye is caused from poor water quality when both eyes are involved so at some point something went wonky and then you often have bacterial infection. Salt may help but Kanaplex in the water ASAP may do a world of good. Water MUST be pristine- NO ammonia or nitrite! Low nitrate I recommend. I'd search the tank for anything dead or dying from inhabitants to plant material. Don't overclean, but see what initially caused this. I'm very sorry @Rebirth I hope you can get your Betta better. 

Thank you much. I have Maracyn on hand. Do I need Kansplex more so?

[xXInkedPhoenixX]

According to Fritz's website Maracyn Two is more for Popeye. To be honest Seachem's Kanaplex has been more of a go-to for me (so I'm partial, but as with everything in this hobby you can approach 1 problem several ways- this can also be frustrating I know) and I've had good results with it for everything I've treated it with- that is not to say Maracyn wouldn't work- but it looks like you need the other according to the site. So get whichever you can and use that. 

Weirdly per your pic it also treats pop eye, so their site is a bit confusing. 

Edited October 18, 2022 by xXInkedPhoenixX

[xXInkedPhoenixX]

What I suspect @Rebirth is that the maracyn products treat differently, gram-positive and gram negative depending on which you use. If Maracyn is all you have I'd say go for it. 

(looking at Fritz's site- says they'll both treat it- but I suspect if you don't get results from Maracyn alone you might need the other- site also says you can use both at the same time but depending on how your Betta reacts to one med I'd assess the situation if it came to that)

Edited October 18, 2022 by xXInkedPhoenixX

[Rebirth]

On 10/18/2022 at 1:27 PM, xXInkedPhoenixX said:

What I suspect @Rebirth is that the maracyn products treat differently, gram-positive and gram negative depending on which you use. If Maracyn is all you have I'd say go for it. 

Her eyes were much worse and maracyn helped. I’ll check local shops for meds but I usually have to order. I suppose something now is better than nothing. Can I switch meds later?

[xXInkedPhoenixX]

If it helped before then by all means do it again yes- but maybe it got reinfected because it didn't clear the infection entirely- so maybe consider if Maracyn helps some do a dose of Maracyn two after if your local shop has it to cover the other spectrum of bacteria. Something is most definitely better than nothing (providing it's supposed to treat what she has), if it helped her already hopefully it will help her again. Poor little thing. 

You can absolutely switch or after a med cycle try another. 

Just know you might have to do a good water change of course before you start a new round of meds. 

Edited October 18, 2022 by xXInkedPhoenixX

[Rebirth]

On 10/18/2022 at 1:55 PM, xXInkedPhoenixX said:

If it helped before then by all means do it again yes- but maybe it got reinfected because it didn't clear the infection entirely- so maybe consider if Maracyn helps some do a dose of Maracyn two after if your local shop has it to cover the other spectrum of bacteria. Something is most definitely better than nothing (providing it's supposed to treat what she has), if it helped her already hopefully it will help her again. Poor little thing. 

You can absolutely switch or after a med cycle try another. 

Just know you might have to do a good water change of course before you start a new round of meds. 

Thank you so much. I’ve dosed maracyn now and will continue recommend treatment on box for next 5 days. She’s a fighter. I love her so I’ll do all I can to help her fight. Do you have a place you buy kanaplex from online?

[Colu]

It looks like a possible hemorrhaging of the eye I would follow @xXInkedPhoenixX advice and treat with a broad spectrum antibiotic treatment such as kanaplex or maracyn2 you can also add some Indian almond leaves as they have antibacterial and antifungal properties depending on the quality of leaves you might have to add one leaf per gallon to get a benefial effect and some aquarium salt that will help reduce any possible fluid buildup in the eye

 

Edited October 18, 2022 by Colu
Typo

[xXInkedPhoenixX]

I got this bundle from Amazon, the Metro is also a good medicine to have on hand. Focus is used to bind meds to food in case you need to go orally with medication, our guru @Odd Duck says while Metro has some effect in water column it's more effective in food (thanks friend for all you teach me) , but in the case of Kanaplex it's fine in the water column and I rely more heavily on these than some other meds I have on hand. 

https://www.amazon.com/Seachem-Treatment-1-Focus-1-Metroplex-1-Kanaplex/dp/B01HH6X4T8/ref=sxts_rp_s_1_0?content-id=amzn1.sym.acfa156f-6066-4c30-8587-c628ec07e337%3Aamzn1.sym.acfa156f-6066-4c30-8587-c628ec07e337&crid=17SSUC28SG4TT&cv_ct_cx=kanaplex&keywords=kanaplex&pd_rd_i=B01HH6X4T8&pd_rd_r=ac2e9981-2fb1-45ad-893c-ed6cc5e3f185&pd_rd_w=hyYpM&pd_rd_wg=gzfN2&pf_rd_p=acfa156f-6066-4c30-8587-c628ec07e337&pf_rd_r=XVGZ44Y75570P17QBE5J&psc=1&qid=1666122744&qu=eyJxc2MiOiIyLjY1IiwicXNhIjoiMi4xMSIsInFzcCI6IjIuMDYifQ%3D%3D&sprefix=kanaplex%2Caps%2C413&sr=1-1-f0029781-b79b-4b60-9cb0-eeda4dea34d6

I hope she gets better, they're good little fishes. 

Edited October 18, 2022 by xXInkedPhoenixX

[xXInkedPhoenixX]

I used kanaplex on my 4 recent Betta rescues and they are pulling through, only one remains medicated though, he's taking Metroplex with food and Expel P so it's all sometimes a very hairy ride until our fish friends get better. (my rescue doesn't have what yours does, we're on a whole other roller coaster at my house unfortunately) 

I regularly use Indian Almond leaf tea (Catappa leaves) (I boil a stockpot with a couple leaves and fill bottles part way with that and the rest with tap and then declorinator) for all my tanks- I get that subscription shipped by Amazon. I do believe it's beneficial for all fish and that water is being used in my Betta rescue tanks.

Edited October 18, 2022 by xXInkedPhoenixX
Typos are lame

[Rebirth]

On 10/18/2022 at 4:01 PM, xXInkedPhoenixX said:

I used kanaplex on my 4 recent Betta rescues and they are pulling through, only one remains medicated though, he's taking Metroplex with food and Expel P so it's all sometimes a very hairy ride until our fish friends get better. (my rescue doesn't have what yours does, we're on a whole other roller coaster at my house unfortunately) 

I regularly use Indian Almond leaf tea (Catappa leaves) (I boil a stockpot with a couple leaves and fill bottles part way with that and the rest with tap and then declorinator) for all my tanks- I get that subscription shipped by Amazon. I do believe it's beneficial for all fish and that water is being used in my Betta rescue tanks.

I ordered some maracyn 2. I have some almond leaves and I’ll put those in as well as order more. I’ll check Amazon for the meds you use. I’ll salt the water, but I wasn’t sure if I could put too much stuff in and stress her. She is perched on one of her plants right at the top of the water. I hope she is eating soon. She was always alittle pig and I look forward to seeing that again. Thanks again

On 10/18/2022 at 3:48 PM, Colu said:

It looks like a possible hemorrhaging of the eye I would follow @xXInkedPhoenixX advice and treat with a broad spectrum antibiotic treatment such as kanaplex or maracyn2 you can also add some Indian almond leaves as they have antibacterial and antifungal properties depending on the quality of leaves you might have to add one leaf per gallon to get a benefial effect and some aquarium salt that will help reduce any possible fluid buildup in the eye

 

🙏 thank you 🙏 

[Colu]

On 10/19/2022 at 12:58 AM, Rebirth said:

I ordered some maracyn 2. I have some almond leaves and I’ll put those in as well as order more. I’ll check Amazon for the meds you use. I’ll salt the water, but I wasn’t sure if I could put too much stuff in and stress her. She is perched on one of her plants right at the top of the water. I hope she is eating soon. She was always alittle pig and I look forward to seeing that again. Thanks again

🙏 thank you 🙏 

You can if your using lots of different medication almond leaves and salt 1 table for 3 gallons and antibiotic treatment are fine to use together 

[Odd Duck]

Maracyn (erythromycin) and Maracyn 2 (minocycline) are both best used in food since they are absorbed from the gut.  Kanaplex (kanamycin) is not significantly absorbed from the gut so is best used in the water (no point in even trying to send it through the gut).  Metronidazole (in General Cure, Metroplex, Aqua-Zole, Fish-Zole, etc) is absorbed from the gut and can also be useful against certain parasites - some internal, some external like Hexamita.

@Rebirth, I would use a combination of either of your Maracyns - start with the Maracyn you have.  I would add Kanaplex (kanamycin) also since the left eye is so hemorrhagic (bloody) and looks like it’s getting much more serious.  Since the kanamycin isn’t absorbed it shouldn’t increase the risk to your fish.  I would not typically use both Maracyn and Maracyn 2 together unless the patient wasn’t responding to other treatments.  They are from different antibiotic families and can be used together, but they are both absorbed orally and would both be inside your fish’s system at the same time, so slightly increased risk of secondary organ problems from the medications.

I think @xXInkedPhoenixXsuggestion of Epsom salt soaks is very appropriate here since that can reduce some of the swelling and inflammation.  Dose is 1 tablespoon per gallon, mix a gallon then use enough to cover the fish in a smaller container (a specimen container or large cup works for this) and soak for 10-30 minutes unless the fish is showing signs of stress.  You don’t need to worry about traces of the Epsom salts getting into the tank but certainly don’t pour the soak solution into the tank, net the fish out to put into the soak and to put back in the tank.  Less swelling of the tissues can help blood get into the affected tissues to better circulate the oral antibiotics through the infected tissues.  It also helps the blood carry away the toxic chemicals produced as a side affect of the infection and how the immune system does its job.

You can also add aquarium salt to the tank (higher doses can affect some species of fish {not likely to be an issue for a betta} and some plants).  I start at 1 tablespoon per 10 gallons of aquarium salt and would not be shy about going to 1 tablespoon per 5 gallons for this betta.  Remember you will need to replace the salt during water changes only for the volume you replace, NOT the entire tank volume.

I also like some tannins for bettas, especially when sick.  IAL’s actually have a couple small, but not terrific studies, so that’s usually what I fall back on just because we have enough information to be reasonably confident it won’t hurt anybody.  I’ve also used rooibos tea for sick fish (I figure it’s safe to drink {and yummy and I don’t even like regular tea} so likely very safe when very dilute in a tank) and at least not thought it had any detriment.  I usually also add some oak leaves because, well, free for me and I know mine are grown organically, and they have plenty of tannins.  I bring the IAL’s, oak leaves, and a rooibos tea bag to a bare simmer in a small amount of dechlorinated water, then either add the “tea” to the water directly if the tank is big enough to diffuse the hot water without affecting anybody or I let it cool or float an ice cube to cool it faster before adding it.  I try to get a strong tint (there’s no real info on how strong it should be) but not so dark I can’t see the fish/injury enough to assess it and track the problem.  With one IAL, one oak leaf, and one tea bag in a cup of water, this will treat a couple 10 gallon tanks.  I usually put the leaves into the tank (not the tea bag), then save some “tea” for later to “top off” the tannins after water changes.  Keep the tea in the refrigerator - should be fine for a couple days when the next water change is due.

@Colu has posted the recipe for mixing antibiotics into food in the “Diseases” section so follow that closely.

[Colu]

On 10/19/2022 at 2:33 AM, Odd Duck said:

Maracyn (erythromycin) and Maracyn 2 (minocycline) are both best used in food since they are absorbed from the gut.  Kanaplex (kanamycin) is not significantly absorbed from the gut so is best used in the water (no point in even trying to send it through the gut).  Metronidazole (in General Cure, Metroplex, Aqua-Zole, Fish-Zole, etc) is absorbed from the gut and can also be useful against certain parasites - some internal, some external like Hexamita.

@Rebirth, I would use a combination of either of your Maracyns - start with the Maracyn you have.  I would add Kanaplex (kanamycin) also since the left eye is so hemorrhagic (bloody) and looks like it’s getting much more serious.  Since the kanamycin isn’t absorbed it shouldn’t increase the risk to your fish.  I would not typically use both Maracyn and Maracyn 2 together unless the patient wasn’t responding to other treatments.  They are from different antibiotic families and can be used together, but they are both absorbed orally and would both be inside your fish’s system at the same time, so slightly increased risk of secondary organ problems from the medications.

I think @xXInkedPhoenixXsuggestion of Epsom salt soaks is very appropriate here since that can reduce some of the swelling and inflammation.  Dose is 1 tablespoon per gallon, mix a gallon then use enough to cover the fish in a smaller container (a specimen container or large cup works for this) and soak for 10-30 minutes unless the fish is showing signs of stress.  You don’t need to worry about traces of the Epsom salts getting into the tank but certainly don’t pour the soak solution into the tank, net the fish out to put into the soak and to put back in the tank.  Less swelling of the tissues can help blood get into the affected tissues to better circulate the oral antibiotics through the infected tissues.  It also helps the blood carry away the toxic chemicals produced as a side affect of the infection and how the immune system does its job.

You can also add aquarium salt to the tank (higher doses can affect some species of fish {not likely to be an issue for a betta} and some plants).  I start at 1 tablespoon per 10 gallons of aquarium salt and would not be shy about going to 1 tablespoon per 5 gallons for this betta.  Remember you will need to replace the salt during water changes only for the volume you replace, NOT the entire tank volume.

I also like some tannins for bettas, especially when sick.  IAL’s actually have a couple small, but not terrific studies, so that’s usually what I fall back on just because we have enough information to be reasonably confident it won’t hurt anybody.  I’ve also used rooibos tea for sick fish (I figure it’s safe to drink {and yummy and I don’t even like regular tea} so likely very safe when very dilute in a tank) and at least not thought it had any detriment.  I usually also add some oak leaves because, well, free for me and I know mine are grown organically, and they have plenty of tannins.  I bring the IAL’s, oak leaves, and a rooibos tea bag to a bare simmer in a small amount of dechlorinated water, then either add the “tea” to the water directly if the tank is big enough to diffuse the hot water without affecting anybody or I let it cool or float an ice cube to cool it faster before adding it.  I try to get a strong tint (there’s no real info on how strong it should be) but not so dark I can’t see the fish/injury enough to assess it and track the problem.  With one IAL, one oak leaf, and one tea bag in a cup of water, this will treat a couple 10 gallon tanks.  I usually put the leaves into the tank (not the tea bag), then save some “tea” for later to “top off” the tannins after water changes.  Keep the tea in the refrigerator - should be fine for a couple days when the next water change is due.

@Colu has posted the recipe for mixing antibiotics into food in the “Diseases” section so follow that closely.

 

[xXInkedPhoenixX]

@Rebirth just so you know, I've used Metro with focus and didn't need to use Garlic Guard. @Odd Duck has mentioned garlic may do more harm than good so I've avoided using it. My Betta is eating his Metroplex soaked bloodworms just fine. 

Edited October 19, 2022 by xXInkedPhoenixX

[Odd Duck]

Studies are mixed on garlic so until we have more information in more species, I tend to avoid it for now.

[Rebirth]

On 10/18/2022 at 10:00 PM, xXInkedPhoenixX said:

@Rebirth just so you know, I've used Metro with focus and didn't need to use Garlic Guard. @Odd Duck has mentioned garlic may do more harm than good so I've avoided using it. My Betta is eating his Metroplex soaked bloodworms just fine. 

I’ve read the same about garlic. I ordered some kanaplex as you and others recommended. 

On 10/18/2022 at 10:01 PM, Odd Duck said:

Studies are mixed on garlic so until we have more information in more species, I tend to avoid it for now.

I’ve had it recommended before and my reading turned up the same. I’ll avoid. Thanks!

[xXInkedPhoenixX]

I hope your little one pulls through, please keep us updated. 

[Odd Duck]

I forgot to mention, don’t bother feeding peas to bettas.  That’s a myth since they are carnivores.  Their system is not designed for vegetables and the peas won’t really help.  Daphnia have enough shell that they can help “clean them out” if it some obstruction of the opening of the swim bladder causing issues.

[Rebirth]

On 10/18/2022 at 10:04 PM, xXInkedPhoenixX said:

I hope your little one pulls through, please keep us updated. 

I will. I hope she makes it. I keep talking to her.

On 10/18/2022 at 10:34 PM, Odd Duck said:

I forgot to mention, don’t bother feeding peas to bettas.  That’s a myth since they are carnivores.  Their system is not designed for vegetables and the peas won’t really help.  Daphnia have enough shell that they can help “clean them out” if it some obstruction of the opening of the swim bladder causing issues.

Ah. I always gave them to my shubunkin. I need to raise some daphnia. I bet she’d get a kick out of live prey. Thanks 🙏