Leaf litter

[Jimmy]

So fall is somewhat here now in the PNW. My question is can I use dried maple leaves for leaf litter? 

[TheSwissAquarist]

On 10/17/2022 at 10:07 PM, Jimmy said:

So fall is somewhat here now in the PNW. My question is can I use dried maple leaves for leaf litter? 

I’ve seen it done with oak and beech, if that helps, so therefore I expect Maple should be fine .

[Jimmy]

I’m gonna grab a garbage bag of them and give it a shot. I have 15~ aquariums that don’t have fish in them so I have some space to play around.

[TOtrees]

Recommend you start with a smaller sampling of the nicest leaves. That way if it doesn't work (you don't get the desired result) out you won't have put a lot of unnecessary time into it. I'm in a very different region, but I do have access to (and have collected and used) maple leaves. Agree with @TheSwissAquarist that oak and beech are better choices. The tannins in the oak especially keep it intact for much longer. If you've used Indian Almond, my experience is that red oak lasts about a third as long as IAL, beech less than that, and maple even less than those.

I believe that maple leaves don't have a lot of nutrition, ie they're one of the last leaves that caterpillars and etc will eat. Things like mulberry are much more popular with shrimps as food, for a reason. 

All that being said, if the leaves you collect are clean, and you're not drowning your tanks with them, the worst that is likely to happen is you won't get the benefit you want, ie there's little chance of any problems. 

[TheSwissAquarist]

On 10/19/2022 at 12:09 AM, TOtrees said:

All that being said, if the leaves you collect are clean, and you're not drowning your tanks with them, the worst that is likely to happen is you won't get the benefit you want, ie there's little chance of any problems. 

I tend to just pick the ones who are about to fall off a tree.

[Andy's Fish Den]

I was told years ago to stay away from maple leaves, to use oak and beech were the safest. I have a bunch of oak tree so I collect some every fall to use in my tanks throughout the year. If you want to collect some maple and try out, I'd just make sure that they are nice and dry and not from an area that there is a possibility of having any kind of pesticide or fertilizer sprayed on them. 

[Fish Folk]

On 10/17/2022 at 4:07 PM, Jimmy said:

So fall is somewhat here now in the PNW. My question is can I use dried maple leaves for leaf litter? 

I use dry Oak leaves in many of my aquariums. Maple leaves, which tend to break down / decompose faster, can be used but may become a decaying mess before they accomplish other desired goals.

I collect fallen, dried Oak leaves picked up as much as possible away from roadside so that there is less risk of automotive drippings or road salt corrosion. Although unnecessary, I prefer to boil my leaves in a hot-pot before adding.

 

[TOtrees]

On 10/19/2022 at 1:34 AM, TheSwissAquarist said:

I tend to just pick the ones who are about to fall off a tree.

I understand the argument that leaves still in the tree will be cleaner than those off the ground, but unless you’re adding the leaves for actual food, I think it would be better to collect fallen dried leaves.

As temps fall and days get shorter, deciduous start a process of withdrawing nutrients from the leaves, returning them to the tree for reclamation/storage till next year. As that process concludes, the leaves are sort of shut off or walled off from their vascular connection with the tree, so no more water “flows” into them. Then they start to dry out, and they fall upon the right combination of desiccation and wind. They will continue to dry a bit more on the forest floor. If you add the leaves to the tank before they finish that process they’ll have more nutrients and “available” organic matter than well-dried leaves that have concluded that process naturally. So, if you’re adding leaves for substrate for biofilm, and to break down slowly then drier is better, so is thicker leaf and higher tannins. But if you want to add them for green food matter, then yes pick them when still hydrated, then dry them, then add them. I see this with mulberry leaves, which are sold by many shrimp keepers as food, in green but pressed and dried state. 

At least that’s my opinion. 

[TheSwissAquarist]

On 10/19/2022 at 1:48 PM, TOtrees said:

I understand the argument that leaves still in the tree will be cleaner than those off the ground, but unless you’re adding the leaves for actual food, I think it would be better to collect fallen dried leaves.

As temps fall and days get shorter, deciduous start a process of withdrawing nutrients from the leaves, returning them to the tree for reclamation/storage till next year. As that process concludes, the leaves are sort of shut off or walled off from their vascular connection with the tree, so no more water “flows” into them. Then they start to dry out, and they fall upon the right combination of desiccation and wind. They will continue to dry a bit more on the forest floor. If you add the leaves to the tank before they finish that process they’ll have more nutrients and “available” organic matter than well-dried leaves that have concluded that process naturally. So, if you’re adding leaves for substrate for biofilm, and to break down slowly then drier is better, so is thicker leaf and higher tannins. But if you want to add them for green food matter, then yes pick them when still hydrated, then dry them, then add them. I see this with mulberry leaves, which are sold by many shrimp keepers as food, in green but pressed and dried state. 

At least that’s my opinion. 

Most of the time I just use them for decoration 😜

[kahjtheundedicated]

I also use boiled oak leaves. They seem to work good, and last a surprisingly long time in my aquarium.

(Also the redbelly dace are looking amazing @Fish Folk)

[T. Payne]

I use magnolia leaves regularly.

[Jimmy]

On 10/18/2022 at 3:09 PM, TOtrees said:

Recommend you start with a smaller sampling of the nicest leaves. That way if it doesn't work (you don't get the desired result) out you won't have put a lot of unnecessary time into it. I'm in a very different region, but I do have access to (and have collected and used) maple leaves. Agree with @TheSwissAquarist that oak and beech are better choices. The tannins in the oak especially keep it intact for much longer. If you've used Indian Almond, my experience is that red oak lasts about a third as long as IAL, beech less than that, and maple even less than those.

I believe that maple leaves don't have a lot of nutrition, ie they're one of the last leaves that caterpillars and etc will eat. Things like mulberry are much more popular with shrimps as food, for a reason. 

All that being said, if the leaves you collect are clean, and you're not drowning your tanks with them, the worst that is likely to happen is you won't get the benefit you want, ie there's little chance of any problems. 

This is great information. I intend on getting a big garbage bag of them and playing around with it. It’s mostly for aesthetics and possibly Cory breeding. With so many tanks up and running with no fish or inverts in them I have a little room to experiment.

On 10/19/2022 at 4:32 PM, T. Payne said:

I use magnolia leaves regularly.

Good to know! Not sure if I’ve ever seen one of those 

On 10/19/2022 at 5:17 AM, TheSwissAquarist said:

Most of the time I just use them for decoration 😜

That’s my intent too!

On 10/19/2022 at 3:37 AM, Andy's Fish Den said:

I was told years ago to stay away from maple leaves, to use oak and beech were the safest. I have a bunch of oak tree so I collect some every fall to use in my tanks throughout the year. If you want to collect some maple and try out, I'd just make sure that they are nice and dry and not from an area that there is a possibility of having any kind of pesticide or fertilizer sprayed on them. 

On the thought of pesticides it would make sense to be careful where they are collected. I’m gonna give them a shot and I will report back.

Any chance you are the Andy that helped build aquarium coop?

 

[Jimmy]

On 10/19/2022 at 4:02 AM, Fish Folk said:

I use dry Oak leaves in many of my aquariums. Maple leaves, which tend to break down / decompose faster, can be used but may become a decaying mess before they accomplish other desired goals.

I collect fallen, dried Oak leaves picked up as much as possible away from roadside so that there is less risk of automotive drippings or road salt corrosion. Although unnecessary, I prefer to boil my leaves in a hot-pot before adding.

 

Beautiful tank!

[Andy's Fish Den]

On 10/20/2022 at 10:20 AM, Jimmy said:

 

Any chance you are the Andy that helped build aquarium coop?

 

Nope, I don't live out in the PNW, I'm in Ohio. I wish I could say I've been there from the very beginning, but I found Cory and the co-op videos about five or six years ago, back when he was first starting to build the fish room at the house before the one he's at now. 

[TheSwissAquarist]

On 10/21/2022 at 12:19 PM, Andy's Fish Den said:

five or six years ago, back when he was first starting to build the fish room at the house before the one he's at now. 

Ancient days of history!

[tolstoy21]

Can't answer about maple leaves (I use Oak), but here is a list of plants known to be toxic to fish . . . (spoiler alert, maple not on it). 

https://www.gardengatemagazine.com/articles/flowers-plants/plant-guide/poisonous_plants/

[TheSwissAquarist]

On 10/21/2022 at 1:50 PM, tolstoy21 said:

Oak

I think we all agree that oak is best, as it looks great and is very nourishing if your name is Shrimpy McShrimp.

[JettsPapa]

On 10/21/2022 at 9:50 AM, TheSwissAquarist said:

I think we all agree that oak is best, as it looks great and is very nourishing if your name is Shrimpy McShrimp.

Have you tried magnolia leaves?

[TheSwissAquarist]

On 10/21/2022 at 6:18 PM, JettsPapa said:

Have you tried magnolia leaves?

I’d have to creep in my grandmothers garden in the dead of night dressed entirely in black, and abseil down a wall whilst not being seen by the snipers on the roof. That accomplished, I would then crawl under the trip wires and dodge the Siberian Tiger to pick 10 magnolia leaves before being airlifted out by a helicopter. (i.e. My Grandmother is very protective about her magnolias so no I haven’t tried them yet, sorry)

[Anjum]

On 10/21/2022 at 4:50 AM, tolstoy21 said:

Can't answer about maple leaves (I use Oak), but here is a list of plants known to be toxic to fish . . . (spoiler alert, maple not on it). 

https://www.gardengatemagazine.com/articles/flowers-plants/plant-guide/poisonous_plants/

Hmm actually Red Maple (Acer rubrum) is on that list. I want to say I've heard caution of Japanese maples too. But then I also think I've heard most native maples are ok??? 🤷

I do intend, at some point, to experiment with our native Bigleaf Maple (Acer macrophyllum). It seems on par with Sugar maple as you can boil the sap & make syrup. 

[JettsPapa]

On 10/21/2022 at 11:25 AM, TheSwissAquarist said:

I’d have to creep in my grandmothers garden in the dead of night dressed entirely in black, and abseil down a wall whilst not being seen by the snipers on the roof. That accomplished, I would then crawl under the trip wires and dodge the Siberian Tiger to pick 10 magnolia leaves before being airlifted out by a helicopter. (i.e. My Grandmother is very protective about her magnolias so no I haven’t tried them yet, sorry)

You probably wouldn't need to go to quite that much trouble.  Being evergreen they shed dead leaves all through the year (or at least mine does), so you should be able to pick up a few off the ground any time you go there.

[Jimmy]

On 10/21/2022 at 3:19 AM, Andy's Fish Den said:

Nope, I don't live out in the PNW, I'm in Ohio. I wish I could say I've been there from the very beginning, but I found Cory and the co-op videos about five or six years ago, back when he was first starting to build the fish room at the house before the one he's at now. 

That’s right, I may have asked you this before lol. I live an hour and a half south of the coop but I’ve only been twice regrettably.