Help me learn RO stuff

[PerceptivePesce]

I'm getting ready to set up my first aquarium, and recently learned that my tap water is not great.  dGH is absolute 0 and dKH is ~300ppm. 

I need an RO filter and I need to know how to use it for my aquarium. @Mmiller2001 @Seattle_Aquarist agreed to help me in a thread I highjacked, but any help is wanted!

My mind is full of unsophisticated quandries about RO.  Please bear with me 🐻 😁

I have a 75g tank, and I'd like to stock it with all water column feeding plants, and Oranda goldfish.  And I've been reading about neocardina shrimp.  Their water parameters are similar to goldfish... I might try them out... or feed my goldfish 😯  For hardscape- stone gravel, and large "mountain river" stones that I got from a local landscape supplier.  I thoroughly scrubbed and soaked those rocks, and even tested them with muriatic acid.  There was no reaction.  (My hubby works with concrete, he understands how to properly handle this substance.  This is dangerous stuff, you've been warned)

Let's talk about RO units first:
● What is the current concensus on remineralizers?  I read that fresh RO water readily absorbs CO2 which drops the pH.  Do remineralizers stop that process?  How do yall regulate RO ph?

● Will I need a 3, 4 or 5 stage RO?

● I found a portable filter called the RO Buddie.  It's tankless, connects to the faucet, and has output connections for hoses.  But it only produces 100 gallons per day.  Does anyone know of an ro filter like the buddie that produces at least 400 GPD?

Thank you!

Edited September 4, 2022 by PerceptivePesce

[Mmiller2001]

Shrimp and goldfish are not going to mix well. You will be feeding the goldfish at some point. Gold fish and plants is another problem as well. I've never kept goldfish, but I've read they eat almost anything.

As far as building the water. Simply get CaSO4, MgSO4 and potassium carbonate. You will add these in various amounts to set a GH and KH. 

Ignore pH, and focus on KH. If a particular livestock likes xdKH, then you will set that amount. PH is irrelevant.

https://greenleafaquariums.com/products/calcium-sulfate-caso4-1lb-bag.html

https://greenleafaquariums.com/products/magnesium-sulfate-mgso4-1lb-bag.html

Limited-time deal: CellarScience - AD640LB Potassium Carbonate (lb) https://a.co/d/h4LYw8Z

Edited September 4, 2022 by Mmiller2001

[PerceptivePesce]

On 9/4/2022 at 5:23 PM, Mmiller2001 said:

Shrimp and goldfish are not going to mix well. You will be feeding the goldfish at some point. Gold fish and plants is another problem as well. I've never kept goldfish, but I've read they eat almost anything.

I understand.  I've read the same thing about goldfish & plants.  However, it turns out that most of the plants that are recommended to pair with gf are all water column feeders.  I want to try!  I'm not totally rushing into this, I plan on growing plants for a bit, adding shrimp, then adding gf.  It's gonna take months.

Thank you for the chemistry info.  It sure would be nice if a remineralizer would build perfect water, then i could just pipe it into the tank.  What are my chances of avoiding premixing water in a giant container and having to pump into my tank?

I saw some screenshots of a water calculator program you were using.  Is there a link to that calculator? 

[Mmiller2001]

You could use this, but will need to account for the added potassium.

https://greenleafaquariums.com/products/the-ultimate-gh-booster-1lb-bag.html

It would add 

Your addition of 16 g (equivalent to approximately 3 tsp or 1 tbsp ) GLA GH Booster to your 20gal aquarium adds:

 

Ca 13 - 17ppm

Mg 5 - 7ppm

K 26 - 32ppm

S 29 - 35ppm

dGH 3 - 4

 

[Patrick_G]

In my area Neocaridina retail for about $7. It wouldn’t be to hard for a Goldfish to go through $100 in shrimp in a morning. If you can get a good colony going and give them plenty of cover it might work, but I think it wouldn’t be optimal. 

[PerceptivePesce]

On 9/4/2022 at 7:15 PM, Patrick_G said:

In my area Neocaridina retail for about $7. It wouldn’t be to hard for a Goldfish to go through $100 in shrimp in a morning. If you can get a good colony going and give them plenty of cover it might work, but I think it wouldn’t be optimal. 

Well, maybe I'll get a 20g and rehome the shrimp before adding gf 😊

[Patrick_G]

On 9/4/2022 at 5:31 PM, PerceptivePesce said:

Well, maybe I'll get a 20g and rehome the shrimp before adding gf 😊

That would be a shrimp palace!

[tolstoy21]

On 9/4/2022 at 4:49 PM, PerceptivePesce said:

I found a portable filter called the RO Buddie.  It's tankless, connects to the faucet, and has output connections for hoses.  But it only produces 100 gallons per day.  Does anyone know of an ro filter like the buddie that produces at least 400 GPD?

Do you need more than 100 GPD? That's a lot of RO water. Most units made for aquariums come in 100 GPD or 150 GPD. 

More importantly, do you have well water or pay for municipal/city water?

You probably only need a 4-stage, with the stages being RO membrane, sediment filter, carbon filter and a mixed-bed DI resin filter.

I've been running RO for a while, so fee free to ask as many questions as you want.

In general, an RO unit will strip everything from the water, so you'll have to build the KH and GH back up to the levels you desire. There are many products on the market for this.

It's good to have a way to stage and mix water before you use it in your aquarium, holding it for a day or so before use.

 

Edited September 5, 2022 by tolstoy21

[tolstoy21]

On 9/4/2022 at 4:49 PM, PerceptivePesce said:

What is the current concensus on remineralizers?  I read that fresh RO water readily absorbs CO2 which drops the pH.  Do remineralizers stop that process?  How do yall regulate RO ph?

RO water has no buffers or anything.  Its TDS will be zero. meaning all the minerals and buffers will have been stripped from it. It's 100% neutral, which is why it is easily influenced and can have its Ph drop drastically when acidified by any type of organic waste or CO2. But, uninfluenced RO water will have a Ph of 7. In reality, in an aquarium, RO water will not remain 'uninfluenced' long, and is more likely to plummet than it is to raise.

Ph is regulated through the introduction of Kh into the water.

Edited September 5, 2022 by tolstoy21

[PerceptivePesce]

On 9/4/2022 at 8:03 PM, Patrick_G said:

That would be a shrimp palace!

Or a goldfish snack breeder. 😁

[PerceptivePesce]

@tolstoy21I have municipal water.  If you'd like to read about my tap test journey, it's linked below. With pictures!

I wanted more gpd bc I may need to do an emergency water change.  I can't wait 8 hours for 30 gallons, right? 

Should I mix my tap and RO then?

[PerceptivePesce]

@Mmiller2001

Let me see if I'm following you.

With the first 3-part method, after adding them I would then add ferts?

With the second 1-addition method, I'd add a fert that doesn't contain K?

[Mmiller2001]

Exactly. And to be honest. That booster has a lot of K. That's EI levels. 

Even Equilibrium has a decent amount of K. That's a problem at times as adjustments need to be made.

It's definitely easier just to manage Ca and Mg. That said, it can become a rabbit hole and keeping it "easier" leans towards a booster.

[Mmiller2001]

I need to also add that using potassium carbonate to raise KH adds even more K. This is why many of us CO2 users stay away from Equilibrium type products and also run 0dKH. Or we have to circumvent K addition through various dry fertilizer. 

It all seems like madness, but it's not really difficult to do. You just need the right products. Lucky, they are dirt cheap. 

Edited September 5, 2022 by Mmiller2001

[tolstoy21]

On 9/4/2022 at 9:54 PM, PerceptivePesce said:

I wanted more gpd bc I may need to do an emergency water change.  I can't wait 8 hours for 30 gallons, right? 

I inquired as to where you got water from because RO/DI units create a lot of waste water. For every gallon of water you make, 4 gallons of waste water go down the drain. So if you make 30 gallons of water, then 120 gallons of that water is "waste" and goes down the drain.  So if you pay a water bill, just factor that in.

My recommendation would be to double-stack RO membranes in what's called a 'water saver mode'. This method takes the high TDS waste water and runs it through a second RO/DI membrane to give it a second pass at cleaning. The bonus of this is reduced waste water (as you are able to reclaim some waste water as usable). The other major bonus is it increases the output of a 100 GPD unit to something close to 200 GPD. See the linked video below.

I would also suggest, if you have the room, to just make your water ahead of time in a brute trash can and to keep it heated and aerated and ready to go for bulk water changes. (I used to keep my RO water in a 40g Brute can). Or you can always make it in a bunch of 5 gallon lidded buckets and just store that for future use (I do this now as I use less RO water then in the past). I also mix in my remineralizers in the buckets instead of in the tank itself.  I rarely put straight RO water into an aquarium except for a few species who come from environments with no mineral content in their water and appreciate a rock-bottom Ph. But even these I let sit a day or so and bring up to temp.

I use Seachem Equilibrium and Alkaline/Acid buffer to get the Gh and Kh/Ph where I want it. Those are my preferences because I find them super easy to use and have never had problems using them.  I won't claim its the best or worst or anything in between. it's simply what I use as it has worked for me. There are a good number of products out there to achieve this objective, so just try some till you find the one that meets your specific needs.

Since you're on municipal water, you'll definitely want a carbon block stage in your unit.

 

Edited September 5, 2022 by tolstoy21

[PerceptivePesce]

@tolstoy21

There are lots of ro filters claiming 1:1 ratio, RO:waste.  There are quite a few claiming 2:1, RO:waste.

The RO buddie I like is 1:4.5, RO:waste, but I'd be able to capture the waste because it has output hose connections for both RO and waste water.  I want that waste water for my lawn!  And I bet my fancy flowering plants will love old fish tank water too!

Thank you for sharing your knowledge! 

 

BTW, War and Peace has been on my "to read" list for many years.  I recently read The Idiot by Dostoevsky.  It was beautiful! 

[Mmiller2001]

I use the BRS 75gpd upgraded with an extra membrane and booster pump. 150gpd.

[tolstoy21]

On 9/5/2022 at 9:36 AM, PerceptivePesce said:

BTW, War and Peace has been on my "to read" list for many years.  I recently read The Idiot by Dostoevsky.  It was beautiful! 

I'm a fan of Anna K. over War and Peace, but his collections of novellas are amongst his best work in my opinion-- Death of Ivan Illyich, The Kreutzer Sonatta, Master and Man, etc. Been a long time since I've ready any of his stuff. I was getting an advanced degree in Literature many-a-moons-ago and adjunct taught Lit  for a few years.   

tolstoy21 was a completely random handle I picked at some point in the 90s for some forum because the screen name I preferred was taken. I was like hmmmm . . . what else can I use? One of Tolstoy's work's was sitting next to me and I was like, sure, I'll use that (had to append some numbers to it to get a unique name). For whatever reason, it's stuck since then!

But back to the topic at hand . . .  if you can find an RO membrane with a higher rejection rate, yeah, try that. Let us know how it works.  In my experience, the stuff at Bulk Reef Supply for RO stuff is top-notch. Their explanatory videos are great. 

Edited September 5, 2022 by tolstoy21

[PerceptivePesce]

On 9/5/2022 at 8:39 AM, Mmiller2001 said:

I use the BRS 75gpd upgraded with an extra membrane and booster pump. 150gpd.

Is that a system they sell, or is this your own optimized design?

Also, I want to ask you about a comment you made earlier regarding ph.  Would you mind telling me why ph is inconsequential?

[Mmiller2001]

That's one they sell.

Because pH is just a result of water parameters. Parameters are what's important. 

[PerceptivePesce]

On 9/5/2022 at 12:24 PM, Mmiller2001 said:

That's one they sell.

Because pH is just a result of water parameters. Parameters are what's important. 

Ah, I see what you were saying.  You meant the pH of fresh ro is irrelevant because we'll add stuff that will inherently correct that value.  I got ya!

On 9/5/2022 at 12:04 AM, Mmiller2001 said:

I need to also add that using potassium carbonate to raise KH adds even more K. 

So, are you saying the 3-part addition adds more K than the 1-step GH booster?

[PerceptivePesce]

On 9/5/2022 at 7:09 AM, tolstoy21 said:

I would also suggest, if you have the room, to just make your water ahead of time in a brute trash can and to keep it heated and aerated and ready to go for bulk water changes. (I used to keep my RO water in a 40g Brute can). Or you can always make it in a bunch of 5 gallon lidded buckets and just store that for future use (I do this now as I use less RO water then in the past). I also mix in my remineralizers in the buckets instead of in the tank itself.  I rarely put straight RO water into an aquarium except for a few species who come from environments with no mineral content in their water and appreciate a rock-bottom Ph. But even these I let sit a day or so and bring up to temp.

Do you aerate all those 5g buckets?  Is there an expiration date on stored water?

I could store potable water under the bed with the freezedried food and ammo.  😃

[Mmiller2001]

On 9/5/2022 at 12:14 PM, PerceptivePesce said:

Ah, I see what you were saying.  You meant the pH of fresh ro is irrelevant because we'll add stuff that will inherently correct that value.  I got ya!

No. The pH of the tank is irrelevant if the water parameters are set to accommodate the live stock. Pick any fish or shrimp. When you do your research and let's say that fish likes 10dGH and 4dKH; if you set the GH and KH to 10 and 4, then the pH is going to be where that fish likes. PH is irrelevant, GH and KH are relevant.

 

On 9/5/2022 at 12:14 PM, PerceptivePesce said:

So, are you saying the 3-part addition adds more K than the 1-step GH booster?

Using any booster (Equilibrium or the like) adds K. So if you use potassium carbonate (to raise KH), even more K. 

Edited September 5, 2022 by Mmiller2001

[tolstoy21]

On 9/5/2022 at 2:26 PM, PerceptivePesce said:

Do you aerate all those 5g buckets?  Is there an expiration date on stored water?

I aerate the 5G buckets the day I plan on using them. This is also when I mix remineralizes into them. Sometimes I do them the night before. Other times a few hours before. Sometimes I keep the buckets sealed. Other time, I leave the open (I'm one lid short!). There is no science behind it. But the tanks I use it in, I generally want to lower the Ph and make them relatively mineral free. 

When I used a 40g brute can, I did leave a constantly running air stone in it. This was when I was remineralizing it all the time to target a specific Kh/Gh for my planted aquarium.

I don't believe that Equilibrium has anything in it that will add Kh and influence the Ph of an aquarium.  At least according to Seachem. I have never seen it have an appreciable affect on Ph. In my experience is just adds minerals meant to targeting a Gh boost.

Two explanations from Seachem. They seem contradictory, but they're not. (TLDR: Does it add anything to increase the Kh/Ph of water? No. If I add it to RO water will it affect the Ph? Yes. Anything added to RO water will have an impact on its chemistry).

https://seachem.zendesk.com/hc/en-us/articles/360008453074-FAQ-Will-Seachem-Equilibrium-affect-my-pH-GH-or-KH-#:~:text=Equilibrium™ is intended to,or pH of an aquarium.

https://seachem.zendesk.com/hc/en-us/articles/360008604593-FAQ-I-added-Seachem-Equilibrium-to-my-RO-DI-water-and-the-pH-changed-What-s-going-on-

Edited September 5, 2022 by tolstoy21

[rockfisher]

I personally think it’s over kill and shrimp. If I’m seeing it right you have very soft water of 0, and buffer of 300. Why the need for the RO?