Red plants keep dying

[Karu]

Hi, been trying to figure out why only my red plants are dying. 

Rest of the aquarium is booming with growth absolutely no algae. All green plants are growing super fast. But the red plants just wont stay alive. They grow and are super red but the leaves just get black and die. 

Even swapped out the substrate to soil bags in the bottom without success. 

I have steady C02 and 2x 9000LM lights 9h day. Good filtration with 3layer of bio and 2 sponge. I tried PMDD I tried potassium I tried tropical premium nutrition nothing works(still 0 algae at high dosage). Even did daily WC for a week without success.  Also no WC for 3 weeks that ended in to high phosphorus levels and leaves just melted away on other plants and i had to starve my fish and go back to WC 3x week.

Water have been at good quality as far I seen. Except high on co2 but the fishes doesn't seem to care because the get so much oxygen from the plants.

I'm out of ideas and about to throw them away and never use red plants ever again... 

 

Edit: also tried higher temperature around 29 degrees Celsius and low around 22. Still no change.

Edited August 12, 2022 by Karu
Adding info

[Mmiller2001]

What are you dosing in ppm? How are you measuring CO2? What's your GH and KH?

[Karu]

On 8/12/2022 at 7:55 AM, Mmiller2001 said:

What are you dosing in ppm? How are you measuring CO2? What's your GH and KH?

Tried all bottles. Tried only KNO3. Tried only micro+ . No change. 

JBL proscan + sticks. 

GH is 18 and KH >4

[Mmiller2001]

Thank you. 

You seem to be all over the place on nutrients. Look up Estimative Index dosing. I would start there. You will need specific nutrients but luckily they are dirt cheap. If you are looking to keep a better than average planted tank, you absolutely have to understand what you are dosing and why. And you need to learn our language spoken in ppm and degrees. I would look up Tom Barr Estimative Index dosing.

I can almost guarantee that you are low on CO2. You will need a better method for measuring it. I don't use them as they are limited, but a drop checker is probably better than that test kit.

A GH 18 is very high for plants. You will be on an up hill struggle even if you get everything else right. It is possible at 18dGH, but lower GH will be better with quicker results. 

Plants love stability. Constantly changing, fluctuating CO2 and inconsistent water changes disrupts stability.

Here's a link that really helped me. I would read everything here.

https://www.2hraquarist.com/blogs/choosing-co2-why

 

https://www.2hraquarist.com/blogs/fertilize-planted-tank

Edited August 12, 2022 by Mmiller2001

[JoeQ]

Previously I had beautiful AR until the warm temps when it started to melt.... The same thing happened last year.  In my opinion it's from the natural yearly cycle of nature dying and rebirth. Hopefully once we have stable cooler temperatures the AR which I've managed to save will grow to it's lush former self.  You may be going through the same thing. 

Edited August 12, 2022 by JoeQ

[Patrick_G]

On 8/12/2022 at 7:52 AM, JoeQ said:

Previously I had beautiful AR until the warm temps when it started to melt.... The same thing happened last year. 

My AR did pretty well in my tank at ~76-77F, then melted in my summer tub. Is it a plant that’s known to prefer cooler temps? 

[eatyourpeas]

On 8/12/2022 at 8:06 AM, Patrick_G said:

My AR did pretty well in my tank at ~76-77F, then melted in my summer tub. Is it a plant that’s known to prefer cooler temps? 

Mine is not surviving the heat either. 🤨

[JoeQ]

On 8/12/2022 at 11:06 AM, Patrick_G said:

My AR did pretty well in my tank at ~76-77F, then melted in my summer tub. Is it a plant that’s known to prefer cooler temps? 

I think @Seattle_Aquarist has it thriving at 80+ (not sure if its at that temperature submerged) And im not sure on its preferred temps. All I now is that at 74 degrees I was thinking 'I wonder why everyone says this is hard' and at 80 degrees im thinking 'ohhhhh I see why' 🤣

[Seattle_Aquarist]

Ceratophyllum

On 8/12/2022 at 9:02 AM, JoeQ said:

I think @Seattle_Aquarist has it thriving at 80+ (not sure if its at that temperature submerged) And im not sure on its preferred temps. All I now is that at 74 degrees I was thinking 'I wonder why everyone says this is hard' and at 80 degrees im thinking 'ohhhhh I see why' 🤣

Hi @eatyourpeas

Actually Alternanthera reineckii is not a species I have kept (yet). It is native to river margins in South America from both the tropical and sub-tropical areas so it is used to warmer temperatures.  When dealing with 'tubs' or outdoor ponds I have always put them in the shade on the north side of the house typically just stuck with more hardy species like Ceratophyllum, Water Hyacinth, Water Lettuce, Red Root Floater.  In the shade my outdoor tubs experienced less extreme temperature variations.  Also, some plants evolved living in shaded areas so they may do poorly in bright sun.  -Roy

[eatyourpeas]

Hi Roy! 😎

This heat is definitely testing everyone’s idea of balance. I was so grateful for the mini deluge on Wednesday! Waiting to see how everything changes once normal temps are back.

[JoeQ]

Definitely going to have to make a thread next summer for advice on keeping plants in warm water. I swear, it's an art form to be able to keep planted Discus tanks! Simply Amazing!

[Karu]

On 8/12/2022 at 4:36 PM, Mmiller2001 said:

Thank you. 

You seem to be all over the place on nutrients. Look up Estimative Index dosing. I would start there. You will need specific nutrients but luckily they are dirt cheap. If you are looking to keep a better than average planted tank, you absolutely have to understand what you are dosing and why. And you need to learn our language spoken in ppm and degrees. I would look up Tom Barr Estimative Index dosing.

I can almost guarantee that you are low on CO2. You will need a better method for measuring it. I don't use them as they are limited, but a drop checker is probably better than that test kit.

A GH 18 is very high for plants. You will be on an up hill struggle even if you get everything else right. It is possible at 18dGH, but lower GH will be better with quicker results. 

Plants love stability. Constantly changing, fluctuating CO2 and inconsistent water changes disrupts stability.

Here's a link that really helped me. I would read everything here.

https://www.2hraquarist.com/blogs/choosing-co2-why

 

https://www.2hraquarist.com/blogs/fertilize-planted-tank

Well, I'm feeling dumb now.... 

I have actually been reading the co2 backwards. Its actually to low co2 injections. It's at <15 

But I have it at max... 

Is my tank to big for just 1? 

How do i increase it more? 

[Mmiller2001]

On 8/12/2022 at 12:19 PM, Karu said:

Well, I'm feeling dumb now.... 

I have actually been reading the co2 backwards. Its actually to low co2 injections. It's at <15 

But I have it at max... 

Is my tank to big for just 1? 

How do i increase it more? 

Typically, your regulator will allow you to increase injection by a lot. If yours doesn't, you will need a different one, or reduce light intensity. However, reducing light intensity my be counter productive. I know @Seattle_Aquarist runs CO2 lower, around 15ppm and keeps his running 24 hours a day. I'd imagine he will be able to offer some help. 

From the pictures, you definitely have nutrient issues. I would start with dropping light intensity some and going about 8 hours a day no more. Also, try to pick a nutrient line that actually tells you what is being dosed. Fixing CO2, light and nutrients is going to make an improvement. You can "dial in" later.

One problem, and we might be seeing it here, along with other problems, is that you may be a bit low on light for AR down at the lower levels of the tank.

It's important not to get discouraged. Just focus on correcting these easy issues. You will get results and be better motivated to press into the more complicated issues.

[Patrick_G]

I was thinking the same thing about the light that @Mmiller2001 mentioned above.
What kind of lights are you running? Do you have an idea of the par level? 

[Karu]

On 8/12/2022 at 8:43 PM, Mmiller2001 said:

Typically, your regulator will allow you to increase injection by a lot. If yours doesn't, you will need a different one, or reduce light intensity. However, reducing light intensity my be counter productive. I know @Seattle_Aquarist runs CO2 lower, around 15ppm and keeps his running 24 hours a day. I'd imagine he will be able to offer some help. 

From the pictures, you definitely have nutrient issues. I would start with dropping light intensity some and going about 8 hours a day no more. Also, try to pick a nutrient line that actually tells you what is being dosed. Fixing CO2, light and nutrients is going to make an improvement. You can "dial in" later.

One problem, and we might be seeing it here, along with other problems, is that you may be a bit low on light for AR down at the lower levels of the tank.

It's important not to get discouraged. Just focus on correcting these easy issues. You will get results and be better motivated to press into the more complicated issues.

That's exactly what I do. 

I run it 24/7 but I guess i need to inject much much more. I wonder if moonshine mixture can even produce enough... 

What's been so odd is all other plants thrive. They are bright green and grow so fast! And not a single algea. So the tank is perfect condition for them... its only the red plants who are much more difficult to get going. 

Like a wrote. They grow good but die just as fast. Make no sense ...

[Mmiller2001]

On 8/12/2022 at 2:50 PM, Karu said:

its only the red plants who are much more difficult to get going

I will quote my favorite aquarist. "Sometimes, it's best to only invite those who enjoy the soup you serve." Don't be afraid to toss plants that don't work in your setup.

[Karu]

On 8/12/2022 at 10:54 PM, Mmiller2001 said:

I will quote my favorite aquarist. "Sometimes, it's best to only invite those who enjoy the soup you serve." Don't be afraid to toss plants that don't work in your setup.

Yeah, that's what I thinking tbh 

[Seattle_Aquarist]

On 8/11/2022 at 10:42 PM, Karu said:

Hi, been trying to figure out why only my red plants are dying. 

Rest of the aquarium is booming with growth absolutely no algae. All green plants are growing super fast. But the red plants just wont stay alive. They grow and are super red but the leaves just get black and die. 

Even swapped out the substrate to soil bags in the bottom without success. 

I have steady C02 and 2x 9000LM lights 9h day. Good filtration with 3layer of bio and 2 sponge. I tried PMDD I tried potassium I tried tropical premium nutrition nothing works(still 0 algae at high dosage). Even did daily WC for a week without success.  Also no WC for 3 weeks that ended in to high phosphorus levels and leaves just melted away on other plants and i had to starve my fish and go back to WC 3x week.

Water have been at good quality as far I seen. Except high on co2 but the fishes doesn't seem to care because the get so much oxygen from the plants.

I'm out of ideas and about to throw them away and never use red plants ever again... 

Edit: also tried higher temperature around 29 degrees Celsius and low around 22. Still no change.

Hi @Karu,

OK, let's start with the basics please.  Do you have some water parameter information you could share please?  pH, dKH, dGH, nitrates (current readings please)

You have changed nutrient dosing several times, what are you dosing now?  How much are you dosing? How often?  What is the size (volume) of the tank?

You are doing water changes 3X per week, what percentage of the tank volume are you changing? 20%. 50%, ??

Below is your first picture above which I downloaded, enhanced, and enlarged.  I also added some arrows.


I can tell you that the issue does appear to be nutrient related.  Based upon the fact that the leaves seem to emerge reasonably healthy but quickly decline I would suspect an issue with one of the mobile nutrients.  The mobile nutrients include the three macro-nutrients nitrogen, phosphorus, and potassium (N, P, K), the secondary-nutrient magnesium (Mg), and three micro-nutrients (Cl, Mo, Zn).

I can likely help further if you can provide as much of the information  I requested above.  -Roy



 

[Karu]

On 8/12/2022 at 11:54 PM, Seattle_Aquarist said:

Hi @Karu,

OK, let's start with the basics please.  Do you have some water parameter information you could share please?  pH, dKH, dGH, nitrates (current readings please)

You have changed nutrient dosing several times, what are you dosing now?  How much are you dosing? How often?  What is the size (volume) of the tank?

You are doing water changes 3X per week, what percentage of the tank volume are you changing? 20%. 50%, ??

Below is your first picture above which I downloaded, enhanced, and enlarged.  I also added some arrows.


I can tell you that the issue does appear to be nutrient related.  Based upon the fact that the leaves seem to emerge reasonably healthy but quickly decline I would suspect an issue with one of the mobile nutrients.  The mobile nutrients include the three macro-nutrients nitrogen, phosphorus, and potassium (N, P, K), the secondary-nutrient magnesium (Mg), and three micro-nutrients (Cl, Mo, Zn).

I can likely help further if you can provide as much of the information  I requested above.  -Roy



 

My lamp died yesterday morning so im using a really bad ramp that came with the aquarium. was busy with work so didnt do the reading until now and the chart doesn't look good at all.... Even have plant who suppose to keep the NO2 and 3 down....
NO2 0.5mg/L
NO3 75mg/L
GH >4
KH 1.5
ph 6.8
chlorine 0mg/L
CO2 <15mg/L
 

I change the dosing or the methods after maybe 2 months of try. Except the WC i did every day for a week.

Past 2 weeks im not doing at all because i dont know what to dose even. Nothing seem to work. 

The tank is 450L. I usually do 3 wc/week about 30%. 

I have tried to dose all 4 bottles of PMDD with Easylife Profito with every WC. Even try to over-feed to see if algae appear. But nothing.  Still the same. Have no idea whats missing then? 

Now i have these NO2 and NO3 issues too. Think my tank is dying all together..... 
I have also not a clue how to increase the CO2 i pump out max now and the reading wont change. 

im looking for new lamps now too i think im gonna try what MD fish tanks (youtube) do and use 2x8000Lm LED spotlights. 

 

Added a picture how it looked 3 weeks ago. When everything seemed in balance. 

Edited August 13, 2022 by Karu
Added a picture

[Seattle_Aquarist]

On 8/13/2022 at 3:00 AM, Karu said:

My lamp died yesterday morning so im using a really bad ramp that came with the aquarium. was busy with work so didnt do the reading until now and the chart doesn't look good at all.... Even have plant who suppose to keep the NO2 and 3 down....
NO2 0.5mg/L
NO3 75mg/L
GH >4
KH 1.5
ph 6.8
chlorine 0mg/L
CO2 <15mg/L
 

I change the dosing or the methods after maybe 2 months of try. Except the WC i did every day for a week.

Past 2 weeks im not doing at all because i dont know what to dose even. Nothing seem to work. 

The tank is 450L. I usually do 3 wc/week about 30%. 

I have tried to dose all 4 bottles of PMDD with Easylife Profito with every WC. Even try to over-feed to see if algae appear. But nothing.  Still the same. Have no idea whats missing then? 

Now i have these NO2 and NO3 issues too. Think my tank is dying all together..... 
I have also not a clue how to increase the CO2 i pump out max now and the reading wont change. 

im looking for new lamps now too i think im gonna try what MD fish tanks (youtube) do and use 2x8000Lm LED spotlights. 

Added a picture how it looked 3 weeks ago. When everything seemed in balance. 

 

Hi @Karu

Thank you for the additional information.  You certainly have been putting a lot of effort into your tank and with all the changes you have been making I can understand a sense of confusion and frustration, I would certainly feel that way.

First, take a deep breath and exhale.....repeat 3 times!

Second, replace your light, I can tell you that your issues are probably not light related so if you want to replace with an equivalent light you certainly can.

Third, do a 50% water change today then wait a day and do another 50% water change.  Thereafter we will be doing one (1) 50% water change per week.

Fourth, can you remember how you were dosing 3 weeks ago when this picture was taken?  If so what were you dosing at that time?  How much? How often?


Looking forward to hearing what you were dosing at that time.  If you don't remember it's OK, we will start fresh.  -Roy

[Mmiller2001]

On 8/13/2022 at 4:00 AM, Karu said:

GH >4

In your previous post, you indicated GH was 18dGH?

[Karu]

On 8/13/2022 at 6:27 PM, Seattle_Aquarist said:

Hi @Karu

Thank you for the additional information.  You certainly have been putting a lot of effort into your tank and with all the changes you have been making I can understand a sense of confusion and frustration, I would certainly feel that way.

First, take a deep breath and exhale.....repeat 3 times!

Second, replace your light, I can tell you that your issues are probably not light related so if you want to replace with an equivalent light you certainly can.

Third, do a 50% water change today then wait a day and do another 50% water change.  Thereafter we will be doing one (1) 50% water change per week.

Fourth, can you remember how you were dosing 3 weeks ago when this picture was taken?  If so what were you dosing at that time?  How much? How often?


Looking forward to hearing what you were dosing at that time.  If you don't remember it's OK, we will start fresh.  -Roy

Didn't dose at all because it was so much new nutrients in the bags of soil.i put under the orange pellets. 

Yeah I'll try go back to WC 

On 8/13/2022 at 7:06 PM, Mmiller2001 said:

In your previous post, you indicated GH was 18dGH?

Yeah, that was 3 days ago before the good lamps broke. 

Now 2 days later I had these very bad measurements. 

[nabokovfan87]

On 8/11/2022 at 10:42 PM, Karu said:

Rest of the aquarium is booming with growth absolutely no algae. All green plants are growing super fast. But the red plants just wont stay alive. They grow and are super red but the leaves just get black and die. 

Are you able to test phosphorus?  As mentioned by Roy, this is probably one of the big indicators and Your green plants might be taking the majority of it.  Red plant isn't doing well, the indications lean towards Phosphorus and/or magnesium.

 

On 8/12/2022 at 11:07 AM, JoeQ said:

Definitely going to have to make a thread next summer for advice on keeping plants in warm water. I swear, it's an art form to be able to keep planted Discus tanks! Simply Amazing!

I have very cold and then very hot water.  It's no fun either way!  Only the strong survive, and right now it's algae. 😞

 

 

On 8/13/2022 at 3:00 AM, Karu said:

I am guessing this is your CO2 setup and not the filter.   With a tank this big, I would imagine a canister, in-line CO2 reactor, and pressurized CO2 is going to make things much more consistent for you.  Your CO2 is likely alternating, your lighting is good, but then you have fluctuations in water and in your nutrients.  If this isn't the case with the CO2, fantastic, for clarity and consistency let's just double check everything.  Is the above shown your CO2 and how is it being diffused into the tank?

A few things make sense here, specifically trying to stabilize everything and get consistency. 
 

On 8/13/2022 at 9:27 AM, Seattle_Aquarist said:

First, take a deep breath and exhale.....repeat 3 times!

Second, replace your light, I can tell you that your issues are probably not light related so if you want to replace with an equivalent light you certainly can.

Third, do a 50% water change today then wait a day and do another 50% water change.  Thereafter we will be doing one (1) 50% water change per week.

This is where I think the majority of getting your consistency back will start! Great advice.

I would then confirm CO2 is setup, working, and that it's stable. 

Then we dial in the water where it stands now, to best determine how to dose and what to dose.

I would recommend verifying the tap with an off-gassing test:
A.  Take water from the tap, test everything you can.
B.  Take that same sample of water and aerate it for 24 hours, then test everything you can again.  This is likely the values you'd expect to see in your tank when you change water.
C.  Compare these values in test B to your tank parameters to see the difference.  I would test this after the water changes above are mentioned and you're on your second weekly 50% wc.

[Karu]

On 8/13/2022 at 10:02 PM, nabokovfan87 said:

Are you able to test phosphorus?  As mentioned by Roy, this is probably one of the big indicators and Your green plants might be taking the majority of it.  Red plant isn't doing well, the indications lean towards Phosphorus and/or magnesium.

 

I have very cold and then very hot water.  It's no fun either way!  Only the strong survive, and right now it's algae. 😞

 

 

I am guessing this is your CO2 setup and not the filter.   With a tank this big, I would imagine a canister, in-line CO2 reactor, and pressurized CO2 is going to make things much more consistent for you.  Your CO2 is likely alternating, your lighting is good, but then you have fluctuations in water and in your nutrients.  If this isn't the case with the CO2, fantastic, for clarity and consistency let's just double check everything.  Is the above shown your CO2 and how is it being diffused into the tank?

A few things make sense here, specifically trying to stabilize everything and get consistency. 
 

This is where I think the majority of getting your consistency back will start! Great advice.

I would then confirm CO2 is setup, working, and that it's stable. 

Then we dial in the water where it stands now, to best determine how to dose and what to dose.

I would recommend verifying the tap with an off-gassing test:
A.  Take water from the tap, test everything you can.
B.  Take that same sample of water and aerate it for 24 hours, then test everything you can again.  This is likely the values you'd expect to see in your tank when you change water.
C.  Compare these values in test B to your tank parameters to see the difference.  I would test this after the water changes above are mentioned and you're on your second weekly 50% wc.

Yes, all pointed to a huge Phosphorus peak when i didn't do WC for maybe 3 weeks. i have nothing to measure it but from what i googled it had to be the issue. 

after all help i had so far here i started to do 50% WC every day and went back to 60ML of all bottles of PMDD and EasyLife Profito. 
Looks a bit better or at least i slowed it down the dying process. leaves seem better. 
as i mention my other strong lights broke and i use a very weak one right now. so from what i understand, the plants consume less CO2 with lesser light? 
maybe thats why it looks better too. 

Im setting up a CO2 injection to my filter too now to add more CO2. just wait for the glue to dry.... 

I noticed that the stem of the plants and the older leaves, even the green, are turning blackish now thou? was that the effect of the NO2/NO3 peak? or something else?