Chronic Fin Rot.. Is there anything I can do?

[Lexi B]

Hi, I've posted about danny a few times before- but I'll try to be quick with an explanation. Back in November, Danny went through a traumatic experience where his tank was shattered and he was out of water for about 2 hours, he very narrowly lived. Since then, it's been a periodic fight with external diseases such as fin rot and more recently a persistent fungus. Since January, he's had fin rot, the it clears up for a few weeks, then it's back seemingly without explanation. Between treatments, the time for re-emergence has become continually short and the infection increasingly more damaging and resistant. He's gone through aquarium salt, Maracyn, Kanaplex, Medicated foods of maracyn and garlic gaurd, higher temperatures, everything I can think of! 

He has had two reoccurances of a white, fluffy fungus on the back end of his body. He is now over that. However, the fin rot has reoccured so quickly that as of 2 days being off kanaplex and back on maracyn, he has lost a good 10-20% of what fin mass he had left. When on kanaplex, he shows some improvement but not a lot- mostly, the fin rot is slowed, but blackened edges are always visible. His fins are always clamped. The reason I stopped kanaplex was because I was concerned he wouldn't survive 3 consecutive rounds of a medication you typically only do one of. It seems that at this point the whatever that's attacking his fins is completely resistant to maracyn. 

His parameters have been consistently clean since January when his new tank was settled, he lives alone, and in general he seems to be in high spirits despite his obviously sickly appearance. I hate to think that he's never going to recover- he's such a fighter and I adore him for that! But at the same time, I don't want him to die a painful and slow death because the fin rot managed to overtake his body. Should I euthanize him? Is there any other treatments worth trying?

• Nitrates 20-30
• Hardness 3
• Nitrite 0
• Ammonia 0
• KH/Buffer 3
• Water Temperature 80

Edited July 27, 2022 by Lexi B

[FLFishChik]

When you tried the Aquarium salt, how did you dose? I ask because my little guy went through a really bad bout of FR.. I ended up removing him from the tank and placing him in a 3 gallon QT tank with just a sponge filter and a Betta leaf. I started out with 1 TBS for the 3 gallons. I did a 50% water change daily with premixed water with aquarium salt so that the ratio was correct. I continued this for 7 days to see if there was improvement. When I didn't see any, I increased the dose to Level  (1 TBS per 3 gallons which would be 1 and 1/2 TBS for a 3 gallon tank) and continued with 50% water changes daily for the next 7 days. Finally, I increased the dose to 1 TBS per gallon for the next 7 days, continuing the 50% water changes daily for 7 days. That seemed to help. Then I changed 30% of the water with just de-chlorinated water and waited 5-7 days to make sure it didn't come back... then did another 30% and watched for another 5-7 days, and finally, I did a third and final 30% water change and waited and watched for another 5-7 days before moving him back into his tank. I definitely cleared the FR. there is a guide on ACO Blog about doing the Aquarium Salt method if you want to take a look.

https://www.aquariumcoop.com/blogs/aquarium/aquarium-salt-for-sick-fish

[Lexi B]

On 7/27/2022 at 1:31 PM, FLFishChik said:

When you tried the Aquarium salt, how did you dose? I ask because my little guy went through a really bad bout of FR.. I ended up removing him from the tank and placing him in a 3 gallon QT tank with just a sponge filter and a Betta leaf. I started out with 1 TBS for the 3 gallons. I did a 50% water change daily with premixed water with aquarium salt so that the ratio was correct. I continued this for 7 days to see if there was improvement. When I didn't see any, I increased the dose to Level  (1 TBS per 3 gallons which would be 1 and 1/2 TBS for a 3 gallon tank) and continued with 50% water changes daily for the next 7 days. Finally, I increased the dose to 1 TBS per gallon for the next 7 days, continuing the 50% water changes daily for 7 days. That seemed to help. Then I changed 30% of the water with just de-chlorinated water and waited 5-7 days to make sure it didn't come back... then did another 30% and watched for another 5-7 days, and finally, I did a third and final 30% water change and waited and watched for another 5-7 days before moving him back into his tank. I definitely cleared the FR. there is a guide on ACO Blog about doing the Aquarium Salt method if you want to take a look.

https://www.aquariumcoop.com/blogs/aquarium/aquarium-salt-for-sick-fish

Hi thanks! I actually followed that guide to a t. I did a week at the containers recommended dosage, and increased that by 50% when I didn't see any improvement after a week. I did that for 3 cycles. The only reason I stopped was because I was getting concerned that the combination of high salinity and different medications would be too intense for him. 

[FLFishChik]

Hmmm... is there anything in the tank that he might be constantly injuring his fins on?  Other than that, I wish I could help. but something must be contributing to his chronic ailment... I just... can't think of what it could be other than continuous fin damage or continuous stress? Are there any live plants in the tank? Any plastic ones? Does he have a hideout he can go to if he's feeling insecure?  80 degrees is at the high end of the temp for a Betta (I realize you are trying to treat for a bacteria) but it might stress him out. I keep both of mine at 78 F without issue.Sorry, just trying to help you figure this out.

[Lexi B]

On 7/27/2022 at 1:42 PM, FLFishChik said:

Hmmm... is there anything in the tank that he might be constantly injuring his fins on?  Other than that, I wish I could help. but something must be contributing to his chronic ailment... I just... can't think of what it could be other than continuous fin damage or continuous stress? Are there any live plants in the tank? Any plastic ones? Does he have a hideout he can go to if he's feeling insecure?  80 degrees is at the high end of the temp for a Betta (I realize you are trying to treat for a bacteria) but it might stress him out. I keep both of mine at 78 F without issue.Sorry, just trying to help you figure this out.

No you're totally fine. I appreciate you trying to trouble shoot. Only thing that could possibly be causing this is the seiryu stone on the bottom, though the injury he has doesn't ever suggest snagging. He has some plants too, like a water sprite, a dwarf red lotus, some anubias here and there, that's about it. No gravel. He has a clay based soil

[FLFishChik]

On 7/27/2022 at 4:53 PM, Lexi B said:

No you're totally fine. I appreciate you trying to trouble shoot. Only thing that could possibly be causing this is the seiryu stone on the bottom, though the injury he has doesn't ever suggest snagging. He has some plants too, like a water sprite, a dwarf red lotus, some anubias here and there, that's about it. No gravel. He has a clay based soil

OK, when you quarantine.. do you do it in his current tank or in a separate qt tank? The reason I ask is if you put him in a separate tank and it's a bacterial issue in the current tank that isn't treated, it could just be reinfecting in. but if he's being treated in his 'home tank' then that's not the problem... and we're back to square one 🤥

[Lexi B]

On 7/27/2022 at 2:37 PM, FLFishChik said:

OK, when you quarantine.. do you do it in his current tank or in a separate qt tank? The reason I ask is if you put him in a separate tank and it's a bacterial issue in the current tank that isn't treated, it could just be reinfecting in. but if he's being treated in his 'home tank' then that's not the problem... and we're back to square one 🤥

No, hes alone in a five gal so I figured it would be more effective to treat him and the aquarium instead of stressing him out in a qt set up? Maybe I was wrong in that regard?

[FLFishChik]

I don’t think so, if he’s the only one in the tank. Let me do some research for a bit and see what we can figure out

[Lexi B]

On 7/27/2022 at 4:01 PM, FLFishChik said:

I don’t think so, if he’s the only one in the tank. Let me do some research for a bit and see what we can figure out

Thanks I appreciate that. Someone on reddit recommended that I use something called ciprofloxacin, but also said that kanaplex and maracyn shouldn't be used to treat fin rot anyway. I was a little skeptical of their advice, but I'm also desperate. Do you know anything about that? I'm really short on cash right now so I can't afford to just throw money at anything without a lot of research. 

[anitstuk]

When I used to have a betta, I use ciprofloxacin for her and it worked pretty well. Definitely do some research before investing into it because you definitely don't want to empty your pockets on a medication that doesn't work 

[FLFishChik]

It’s a broad spectrum antibiotic, but it is very expensive and not as commonly used as the “med trio”. I’m gonna see what I can find, so give a little bit. If we can’t figure it out, we’ll see if we can tag an admin to see what they think.

[FLFishChik]

Have you seen this? Girl Talks Fish gives a really good vlog on how to use the Med Trio (by not following the package directions)

 

[Lexi B]

On 7/27/2022 at 4:41 PM, FLFishChik said:

Have you seen this? Girl Talks Fish gives a really good vlog on how to use the Med Trio (by not following the package directions)

 

Oh! Yes i did- sorry i forgot to note in my original post I also treated with ich x. I Used it both on its own and as combination with Maracyn

[Colu]

What I would do as salt hasn't worked is treat with kanaplex or maracyn2 as most case of fin rot are caused by gram negative bacteria to treat the fin rot you could also add some Indian almond leaves as they have antibacterial and antifungal properties depending of the quality of the leaves you might have to add one leaf per gallon to get a benefial effect @Lexi B

[Lexi B]

On 7/27/2022 at 5:38 PM, Colu said:

What I would do as salt hasn't worked is treat with kanaplex or maracyn2 as most case of fin rot are caused by gram negative bacteria to treat the fin rot you could also add some Indian almond leaves as they have antibacterial and antifungal properties depending of the quality of the leaves you might have to add one leaf per gallon to get a benefial effect @Lexi B

Hi yes I've done this before. You've actually helped me with this guy in particular a few times before. The last treatment I did was kanaplex+salt+leaves 

[Colu]

 

On 7/28/2022 at 1:53 AM, Lexi B said:

Hi yes I've done this before. You've actually helped me with this guy in particular a few times before. The last treatment I did was kanaplex+salt+leaves 

As you have used kanaplex before I would treat with maracyn2  

[FLFishChik]

On 7/27/2022 at 8:38 PM, Colu said:

What I would do as salt hasn't worked is treat with kanaplex or maracyn2 as most case of fin rot are caused by gram negative bacteria to treat the fin rot you could also add some Indian almond leaves as they have antibacterial and antifungal properties depending of the quality of the leaves you might have to add one leaf per gallon to get a benefial effect @Lexi B

Good point about the almond leaves! I forgot to mention those! Every little bit will help this little guy!

[nabokovfan87]

On 7/27/2022 at 11:26 AM, Lexi B said:

He has had two reoccurances of a white, fluffy fungus on the back end of his body. He is now over that. However, the fin rot has reoccured so quickly that as of 2 days being off kanaplex and back on maracyn, he has lost a good 10-20% of what fin mass he had left. When on kanaplex, he shows some improvement but not a lot- mostly, the fin rot is slowed, but blackened edges are always visible. His fins are always clamped. The reason I stopped kanaplex was because I was concerned he wouldn't survive 3 consecutive rounds of a medication you typically only do one of. It seems that at this point the whatever that's attacking his fins is completely resistant to maracyn. 

I would suggest treating the tank with neoplex.  For fin rot it was mentioned as a method for treating some gram negative bacteria.  If that doesn't work there are some other meds you can try.  Essentially, depending which is causing the issue (which bacteria specifically) you're trying to find the right med to treat that specific one.  Sulfaplex is the last one I would try.

https://forum.aquariumcoop.com/topic/24356-still-struggling-with-my-betta-and-fin-rot-need-advice/?do=findComment&comment=225132

Edited July 28, 2022 by nabokovfan87

[FLFishChik]

I can’t find any info that’s different on persistent fin rot other than what’s already been discussed here. Though it seems that it’s not uncommon for Betta keepers to battle this disease quite often. Bettas are highly susceptible to FR.  It seems the best approach is consistently clean water and the antibiotics / aquarium salt treatment already mentioned. And… it seems that taking several rounds is also quite common. 

[Betta]

Have you tried pure almond leaf extract? It would be one teaspoon for five gallons and you would want him to float in it for a bit then let the filter run or put him in another small tank and only put in betta beads and water and of course your conditioner the almond leaf extract and an almond leaf with betta balls 

Both the extract and the betta balls have antiseptic properties and will put a great protective layer on his fins to keep stuff from reoccurring 

I tried it with my betta and his torn arm fin and it has grown back and is doing great 

maybe try getting a ten gallon so the water circulation is bigger and more stress free ? 
GirlTalksFish is a great channel on YouTube she would know what to do! 
I hope he gets better! 

[FLFishChik]

Please keep us updated in how your little guy is doing and if you make any progress with his treatment. I’m keeping my fingers crossed that he beats this!

[Lexi B]

On 7/29/2022 at 7:18 PM, FLFishChik said:

Please keep us updated in how your little guy is doing and if you make any progress with his treatment. I’m keeping my fingers crossed that he beats this!

Hi, I'm sorry I kind of ghosted the chat. I can't express how much I appreciate you and everyone else who posted's advice. On Wednesday I decided to give more leaves and salt a try while I waited on maracyn 2 to arrive since fish meds are impossible to fight out here. 

Thursday he didn't come out for food. 

Today I go nervous and looked around for him, but he was laying on the ground behind one of his rock hides. At that point I decided that it was best for him if I let him go, I think I knew when I posted that was likely going to be the outcome. 

Im devastated. I buried him in a pot and got him a flower I felt represented him best. When I got my first Betta, I never expected to feel this way about losing one. 

[FLFishChik]

On 7/30/2022 at 12:19 AM, Lexi B said:

Hi, I'm sorry I kind of ghosted the chat. I can't express how much I appreciate you and everyone else who posted's advice. On Wednesday I decided to give more leaves and salt a try while I waited on maracyn 2 to arrive since fish meds are impossible to fight out here. 

Thursday he didn't come out for food. 

Today I go nervous and looked around for him, but he was laying on the ground behind one of his rock hides. At that point I decided that it was best for him if I let him go, I think I knew when I posted that was likely going to be the outcome. 

Im devastated. I buried him in a pot and got him a flower I felt represented him best. When I got my first Betta, I never expected to feel this way about losing one. 

I am so sorry 😢. We become so close with our little Aqua pets, it’s just as devastating when they get sick of pass as if were a fur-baby. Just know that it’s not your fault! You did everything in your power to nurse him through it, he just fought for too long with this particularly aggressive disease. 🙏

Edited July 30, 2022 by FLFishChik