losing my war against algae

[DrwHem]

This tank has been setup for about 3 years now and i would say 50% of the plants in the tank are about 1 year old with the other 50% less than 3 months. The last few years i would buy groups of plants and many would die off due to insufficient light or because the snails ate them. So i got the new Fluval fresh and plant about 6 months ago and i removed the ramshorn snails and replaced them with 4 nerite snails.

The hope was that the new light would enable these plants to grow rapidly to fill the tank and out compete the algae but that dosnt appear to be working. I have to do significant glass cleaning every week with some spot water vacuuming to get the fish poop and melting plant debris removed.

The last month or so i have also noticed what appears to be little algae plants growing on the sand now! i try to siphon them up but they are too heavy i guess.

What do i need to do to get this stabilized and remove the crap growing on my sand? i dont mind light cleaning once a week or so but it is currently a losing battle.

 

Tank: 60 Gallon

Light: Fluval Fresh & Plant 1100mm

   Sunrise: 7:30-9:30  

   Daylight: 9:30- 17:30

•          Pink 80%
•          Blue 20%
•          Cold White 65%
•          Pure White 85%
•          Warm White 75%

Sunset 17:30-18:30

Fertilizer: Seachem Flourish 1 cap weekly  

 

[JoeQ]

Lots of Fresh new plants would be my first step along with removing dead debris. I posted on another algea thread this morning, a lot applies to your thread. But basically you need to rebuild your eco system. 

[JoeQ]

It also wouldn't hurt to know your water parameters, im my case my source water no longer contained kh un be known to me. Once I started supplanting and adding new plants my tank(s) started to grow again. 

[DrwHem]

nitrite 0

nitrate  50-75 pmm

carbonate hardness  80

ph 7.5ish

One of the trays in my filter is all crushed coral in order to stabilize the hardness. i just replaced it about 3 months ago.

 

[DrwHem]

anyone have any recommendations for a quick growing no CO2 required carpeting plant? thats what my tank is lacking atm. my dwarf hairgrass died out and it was a nightmare to plant so ill not be doing that again.

[JoeQ]

If it were me I would also get them nitrates down! Mine are typically kept at around 5~10 with absolutely no problems growing plants and no algea problems either. 

[SKosto]

Personally, I'd cut the photo period down to 8hrs total, I'd also completely remove the blue or cut it down to 5% or less. 

 

Dwarf sag would be a good no co2 carpeting plant imo.

[DrwHem]

Not sure how to keep the nitrates down besides reduced feeding. im guessing a lot of it is the melted off plant parts hidden somewhere.

ill try removing the blue from 20 to 5% and pushing back sunrise by an hour and bringing up sunset by an hour.

[dangerflower]

On 5/8/2022 at 9:02 AM, DrwHem said:

anyone have any recommendations for a quick growing no CO2 required carpeting plant? thats what my tank is lacking atm. my dwarf hairgrass died out and it was a nightmare to plant so ill not be doing that again.

I really love pearlweed as a low tech carpeting plant. It's not a true carpeting plant -- it doesn't send out runners, but you can keep it trimmed short and replant the trimmings to create a beautiful dense carpeted look. And it would probably help lower those nitrates since it's a fast grower.

[Mmiller2001]

Hello Drwhem! 

So there's quite a bit going on here. So much so that I'm going to try and keep this as short as possible. But first, can you please report your hardness (aka GH) and your karbonate hardness (aka KH) and please report those in the measure named degrees. So these numbers will look like: example, 4dGH or 4dKH. I ask you to convert these numbers because this will cause, maybe, a bit of research on your part.

You mention 1 cap Flourish a week. Do you add anything else?

[nabokovfan87]

On 5/8/2022 at 7:08 AM, DrwHem said:

Something I always struggled with as well was the stems and knowing how/when to trim them to clear off the bare stalk regions.  This is a really awesome guide of what to do and might help you out with some of yours.
 

That being said, regarding your algae. 

 

On 5/8/2022 at 7:08 AM, DrwHem said:

  Sunrise: 7:30-9:30  

   Daylight: 9:30- 17:30

•          Pink 80%
•          Blue 20%
•          Cold White 65%
•          Pure White 85%
•          Warm White 75%

Sunset 17:30-18:30

Drop the pure white to 65%, drop cold and warm white to 50% and 60% respectively.  Blue down to 3%, Pink at 30-40% should be good.

Keep an eye on nitrates and adapt those via your water changes. (if your nitrates stay high, you need to change water more often to get them down short term and eventually, long term, balance the cycle of the fish load with your plant intake)

Short term. Dose some easy carbon daily (or every other day) and you might need to switch off of the seachem stuff because it's not providing all of the nutrients your plants actually need.  There's a ton of options, but I'd of course recommend easy green.
 

 

On 5/8/2022 at 7:08 AM, DrwHem said:

The hope was that the new light would enable these plants to grow rapidly to fill the tank and out compete the algae but that doesnt appear to be working. I have to do significant glass cleaning every week with some spot water vacuuming to get the fish poop and melting plant debris removed.

The last month or so i have also noticed what appears to be little algae plants growing on the sand now! i try to siphon them up but they are too heavy i guess.

What do i need to do to get this stabilized and remove the crap growing on my sand? i dont mind light cleaning once a week or so but it is currently a losing battle.

SO.....  There's a lot going on here, but I was right in your shoes and I think some of what your going through is very normal.  My absolute FIRST recommendation is to go ahead and add amano shrimp. 10+ if you can and let them work on the substrate and algae issues for you.  Long term, they will be the kings of the tank and will absolutely crush a lot of what you're fighiting.  They help to balance out the ecosystem really nicely in my tanks and help combat the hell out of persistent algae that nearly nothing else actually eats. Second to that, if you don't have them, the plants you have would greatly benefit from 5 or so Otocinclus being added to the tank.  Instead of a bigger pleco, the otos will hang out on the leaves and work hard on the glass. It's a really perfect size tank for a small shoal of them.

Essentially what you're running into is micronutrient and other deficiencies that are slowing down growth. The light is so intense that the algae is out competing the Macro nutrients that are there. (More of this in the bentley video above).  After a month or 2-3 months you can slowly increase the light as the plants fill in and start to thrive in your tank.  The biggest thing is to understand how long this takes and to give the animals / light / nutrient changes time to take hold.  (In my journal you can see where I started and where I'm at now)

I wish you the best of luck, be patient, and keep the plants going!

Edited May 9, 2022 by nabokovfan87
typo

[DrwHem]

So i am pretty sure any shrimp i add to the tank will be eaten by the tiger barbs.

I have also tried 2 times to add 4 otto cats to the tank but they tend to die for some reason. im guessing the rainbow shark probably chases them around too much.

[mouseturd13]

I was having a lot of algae problems with my tank when I upgraded to a better light. I ended up lowering the amount of light percentage and did very little blue. Also swapped over to siesta lighting so that the light was on for shorter periods of time multiple times in the day. For whatever reason the algae seems to not be around when the light is on for two three hour periods and not on for a constant 6 hours.  Another thing I found was that when I didn’t do a plateau where the light is the same strength for a while I had less problems. I just have it slowly rise and then go back down. I’ll throw my settings in for context but I am away from home so it won’t let me show the percentages. I have a ten gallon for reference so my strength is very low compared to larger tanks. 

Edited May 9, 2022 by mouseturd13

[Torrey]

On 5/8/2022 at 10:02 AM, DrwHem said:

anyone have any recommendations for a quick growing no CO2 required carpeting plant? thats what my tank is lacking atm. my dwarf hairgrass died out and it was a nightmare to plant so ill not be doing that again.

I have had great success with pearlweed, and cyperus helferi.

I don't use CO2, and my lighting on the majority of my tanks is either a shoplight, or a submersible LED white light from Walmart. I love my AquaSky, don't get me wrong. I just can't afford that kind of light on 13 tanks.😬

Neither the cyperus nor the pearlweed are officially carpeting plants. The pearlweed requires regular trimming, and is easy to propagate: just let it float for a couple of weeks until there are roots on multiple sections, and then carefully cut so there are at least 2 pairs of leaves on each *rooted* section, and cover the roots. In a month, it will be ready to trim again, if you want. 

Alternative method is to stick the stems in a piece of sponge glued to a rock or a plant weight. The pearlweed will grow all over the sponge, covering it like a topiary in the aquarium. 

The cyperus looks like an extremely dwarf sword, or a larger dwarf hairgrass, and puts off new rosettes as it grows. It doesn't require as much light as the hairgrass, and maintains a gorgeous, rich green. My shrimp love it and the ramshorns only eat injured or dying plants. 

My pH is ~7.8, so I have to be careful about which iron supplements I use. Seattle_Aquarist and Mmiller helped me step up my plant game enormously this past year. 

Finally, aquariums go through specific growth stages. That many changes will knock the system back to the awkward teen stage. Be patient, try to document a change you make with pictures, and only change one thing at a time. 

Our aquariums are a lifelong science experiment, lol. If we don't control for confounding parameters, we never actually learn what works in our tank, with our water. Look at the algae and cyanobacteria issues Cory had with Ladybird's tank due to a change in water parameters with the move. Change 1 thing (like lights) and it can take 3 to 6 weeks to identify all the "symptoms" after the change. If more than one thing was changed, it gets almost impossible to discern what was correlational and what was causational.

Welcome to the forum!

[DrwHem]

So i continue to have issues with the black algae and now some string algae all over my plants.

I have changed my light settings to:

sunrise 8:30 to 10:30

Daylight 10:30 to 1700

   Red: 70  Blue 5  Cold White  45  Pure White 70 Warm White 60

I bought 2 otto cats but they mainly stick to the intake tube as opposed to the plants...which is what i got them to clean lol.

I also added 4 spread out large bundles of Glosso Elatinoides and 2 bunches of Narrow Chain Sword

Im hesitant to turn the light down lower because thats why i got a new light in the first place, the old light was not strong enough for my plants.

How low can i safely turn down my light and keep my plants alive and starve out the algae?

Current Stock:

1 Red Tiger Lotus

6 stems  Limnophila Aromatica

3 Mermaid Weed: high light recommended

3 Rotala Macranda: high light recommended

6 amazon swords (large and small variety)

A fairly large bush of Rotala rotundifolia

2 Java Fern

8 Bacopa stems

6 or so Cryptocoryne

 

Edited May 30, 2022 by DrwHem

[Mmiller2001]

It's impossible for anyone tell help you with so limited information.

If you continue to only use Seachem Flourish, your tank will never improve.

We still don't know GH.

We don't know your water change schedule or filtration. 

What is the substrate?

Are you using tap water?

What is the GH and KH, ammonia, nitrite and nitrate of your tap water (if you are using tap water).

How many fish?

Which plants are you trying to grow?

1 Fluval 3.0 is not enough for a 60g high if you are trying to grow more demanding plants. Especially a carpet. Which has no chance if you are still only using Flourish. 

Edited May 30, 2022 by Mmiller2001

[nabokovfan87]

On 5/8/2022 at 7:16 PM, DrwHem said:

So i am pretty sure any shrimp i add to the tank will be eaten by the tiger barbs.

I've had a 55G/75G with 25+ tiger barbs and they didn't really bother the amanos.  The amanos will tend to come out in full force at night.  When they are out during the day, the tigers are mid/high water and are very active, especially in larger groups.  With the amanos they are bigger, not really the size a tiger would try to eat.  They might swim and spook the amano and it'll just swim around.  That's been my experience with them.
 

On 5/30/2022 at 9:39 AM, DrwHem said:

sunrise 8:30 to 10:30

Daylight 10:30 to 1700

   Red: 70  Blue 5  Cold White  45  Pure White 70 Warm White 60

The main thing is just going to be time.  Are you seeing things get worse or improve?  It's going to take months to truly fix the issues.  It's something I've been fighting for quite a while.  See attached 😕 (this tank I purposefully avoid trying to maintain because it's going to be broken down, but it's been algae ridden for a long time.  All of the Anubias in my 29G journal used to look like this, then I moved it, and it's much improved.... There is hope!).







One of the biggest factors with BBA/Staghorn is going to be nitrates.  If the tank has high nitrates due to waste, you're just going to have a lot of issues.  This also means that cleaning it off during each weekly WC is going to be impactful.  As you can see in the photos above, every surface of the mopani, the sidewall, it always looks that caked with algae.  I've started to "try" to fix it.  I fixed light settings and I'm performing more detailed deep cleaning on my WC days now.

Essentially, scrub it off as best you can on any hard surface. I use a dish sponge (no chemicals, just a rough sponge) and a toothbrush.  I scrape the glass, excluding the back glass, and then I just observe parameters.  Because this small tank has too much bioload right now, it's difficult to really thin out the algae but considering what it looked like 24 hours ago, and my other display tank changes, it's definitely a matter of time and effort.


 

 

On 5/30/2022 at 9:39 AM, DrwHem said:

Im hesitant to turn the light down lower because thats why i got a new light in the first place, the old light was not strong enough for my plants.

How low can i safely turn down my light and keep my plants alive and starve out the algae?

A photo would really help us out to be able to see what's going on.  But generally speaking you can turn the light off and cover the tank for a week if you really had to.  The issue you're running into right now is mentioned above, but it's purely based on what the plants need compared to what is going into the tank.

They need light..... check.
They need Aeration/Co2..... check (filter does this)
They need macronutrients.... check (seachem flourish)
They need micronutrients..... this is where you have an issue and something like easy green might be a better solution for you longer term to make it easier.

Bentley Pascoe has a very good video regarding the seachem line, I'd encourage you to check it out and ask any questions you may have. (linked above)

Generally speaking, you'd want your light at 40-60% power range to start off, algae and such under control and new growth showing, then slowly increase it over time.  As long as your plants are successfully growing and algae isn't you're winning the battle.

Edited May 30, 2022 by nabokovfan87

[nabokovfan87]

On 5/30/2022 at 9:39 AM, DrwHem said:

3 Mermaid Weed: high light recommended

3 Rotala Macranda: high light recommended

I know there's going to be a.... push for high light because somewhere the chart says these need high light. You might have 1-2 plants in the tank do very well, but then all the others are struggling.  I would opt for a lower light to start at first (50%) and then monitor the situation.  If the high demand plants melt harshly, then location of the light may play a critical role in addition to the intensity.  There's a lot of factors that could help, or hurt, the situation.

Play it slow, give the tank time, your patience will be rewarded.  We do need to clear up a few details though and have a better understanding of what is causing the issues and how to monitor/alleviate them.  Reacting correctly is how you beat the algae back.

[Mmiller2001]

On 5/30/2022 at 11:24 AM, nabokovfan87 said:

They need macronutrients.... check (seachem flourish)

This is incorrect. Flourish is a supplement and contains no significant amounts of Macro nutrients. However, it does contain decent amounts of Micro nutrients. And in the most simplified explanation, is the single biggest factor contributing to this tanks problems. 

[DrwHem]

I just did a 20% water change a few hours ago and added some aquarium salt and stress coat. Heres the latest test:

general hardness 150 ppm

nitrites .5 ppm

nitrates 50  ppm

carbonate hardness 80 ppm

ph 7.6

Current Fish:

1 Rainbow Shark

8 tiger barbs

25 assorted neon tetras

1 corydorra

2 otto cats

4 nerite snails

 

I generally do a 15% to 20% water change once a month. feed the fish about 4 times per week.

Also, the substrate is black sand with API iron root tabs underneath every cluster of plants which i add in about every 4 months.

[nabokovfan87]

On 5/30/2022 at 11:32 AM, Mmiller2001 said:

This is incorrect. Flourish is a supplement and contains no significant amounts of Macro nutrients. However, it does contain decent amounts of Micro nutrients. And in the most simplified explanation, is the single biggest factor contributing to this tanks problems. 

I'm guessing I had an episode of my dyslexia? It's definitely not an all in one.

The point being, I don't think you can use seachem flourish without flourish trace. Let alone some of their other bottles.

It's a bit much and it's not a easy fertilizer regiment to get right.

Edit: Here's a video. Also, Bentley's above. 
 

 

Edited May 30, 2022 by nabokovfan87

[JoeQ]

Imo this whole aquarium needs to be restarted, algea (which doesn't even look to be thriving) needs to be scrapped, plants that can be salvaged, salvaged and even more healthy fresh plants, planted. Add a clean up crew, buy a good all in one fertilizer, test your tanks water to ensure you have optimum grow conditions, spend time daily watching the tank, see how the plants are reacting to the light (are they opening and closing with the light) Do you see micro pieces of algea growing? It takes time, it takes paitents and observation. As good as the forum is we can't over night solve a tanks problems that has this many issues. 

Edited May 30, 2022 by JoeQ

[Mmiller2001]

On 5/30/2022 at 1:50 PM, JoeQ said:

Imo this whole aquarium needs to be restarted

Careful here, everything else is you say is 100% correct .

But don't scrap the tank. This can be fixed but it's going to take a bit of effort on your part @DrwHem.

On 5/30/2022 at 1:13 PM, DrwHem said:

added some aquarium salt

Why?

 

Here's what I would do. Take it or leave it. 

Remove the crushed coral, it does nothing to improve anything and alters GH and KH. It's like sucking on a snake bite. Pointless!

Get a comprehensive fertilizer (today). I don't care which one, but I recommend APT Complete.

Test GH and KH of your source water and tell us what it is. And to be completely honest, KH is of very little importance. 0KH (IMO) is ideal.

Remove all the Rotala plants, these are mostly CO2 plants. In fact, Macrandra is one of the most difficult plants to grow and if the store recommended it to you, I would never go back there.

Buy Anubias, Swords, Crypts, Vals or Fern plants and I would only choose stem plants like Hygropohila Polysperma and Pearl Weed. There are some Bacopa that could work, but you need to correct quite a few things before I would try Bacopas'.

Increase water changes to 30 to 50% weekly (but what does your tap water test?). Until you have a grip on things, water changes are the single most important maintenance necessity. Water changes are a force multiplier.

Buy more plants, I would try to plant to 70% surface area, but this won't work if you don't fertilize correctly.

Stop all gravel vacuuming, increase water turnover to a minimal of 5 times tank volume an hour. This does not mean increase flow, but flow should be good through the tank. 

Picture shows a lack of light and nutrients to even support growth.

 

The GDA is from too high of Nitrates (Nitrates do not indicate a proper fertilizer regiment). 

Lower GH to 5dGH and ignore KH. If KH goes above 3dKH, then I would make efforts to lower it. 

More plants, more plants more plants more plants, and fertilize with a comprehensive fertilizer.

Once you get a comprehensive fertilizer, then we can hash out dosing numbers.

Lastly, find a picture of a tank that amazes you, then learn what they do and repeat it in your tank.

[JoeQ]

On 5/30/2022 at 5:07 PM, Mmiller2001 said:

Careful here, everything else is you say is 100% correct .

But don't scrap the tank. This can be fixed but it's going to take a bit of effort on your part @DrwHem.

I should have been more precise, I would not go as far as scraping the tank and buying a new one. But I will add having a quality planted tank substrate will most likely help you immensely! 

[Mmiller2001]

On 5/30/2022 at 3:31 PM, JoeQ said:

I should have been more precise, I would not go as far as scraping the tank and buying a new one

I knew what you were saying 😁. But I learned my lesson a while ago. <wink> 

On 5/30/2022 at 3:31 PM, JoeQ said:

having a quality planted tank substrate will most likely help you immensely!

So true!