Some Plants Thrive, Others Barely Survive

[RadMax8]

I have been working to dial in my settings to get my plants growing in my high tech setup. I think I’m at a point where my CO2 is on point, as I run a controller and confirm with a drop checker. I feel like I’ve dialed in my fertilizer reasonably well (30ppm K, 6ppm PO4, and about .74 Fe per week with my fish providing the NO3) because some plants grow well, such as my Amazon sword compacta, my ludwigia natans, and my hygrophila. The mystery to me is that while those plants thrive (and Pearl like crazy), many of my other plants are almost dormant and grow algae. I am trying to grow AR, blyxa japonica, rotala bonsai, staur repens, bacopa carolina, and ambulia, but their success seems to elude me. 

I know these aren’t quite beginner plants, but it’s something I should be able to figure out here… many people have grown more with less! As far as my tank goes, it’s a 40b with two Planted+ 24/7 lights on it which have been set at about 70% output for 6 and a half hours per day. I feel like I’ve made some improvements lately, but my tank is still a bit of a mess. Any advice is welcome!

[DaveO]

I would extend the lights to eight hours and see if those plants respond after a couple weeks or so.

[JoeQ]

It could be placement/light related. My S. Repens grows fine without co2 but if I plant it 6 inches away it barely survives. Same thing with my AR, if its not in the 'sweet spot' under the light it barely grows. Do you have a support cross bar in your tank?

[SkaleyAquatics]

On 3/29/2022 at 10:21 PM, RadMax8 said:

I have been working to dial in my settings to get my plants growing in my high tech setup. I think I’m at a point where my CO2 is on point, as I run a controller and confirm with a drop checker. I feel like I’ve dialed in my fertilizer reasonably well (30ppm K, 6ppm PO4, and about .74 Fe per week with my fish providing the NO3) because some plants grow well, such as my Amazon sword compacta, my ludwigia natans, and my hygrophila. The mystery to me is that while those plants thrive (and Pearl like crazy), many of my other plants are almost dormant and grow algae. I am trying to grow AR, blyxa japonica, rotala bonsai, staur repens, bacopa carolina, and ambulia, but their success seems to elude me. 

I know these aren’t quite beginner plants, but it’s something I should be able to figure out here… many people have grown more with less! As far as my tank goes, it’s a 40b with two Planted+ 24/7 lights on it which have been set at about 70% output for 6 and a half hours per day. I feel like I’ve made some improvements lately, but my tank is still a bit of a mess. Any advice is welcome!

How long has the tank been setup?

The first reason I ask is because my AR is very slow growing and does not like to be uprooted. I personally do not have experience with the other ones you mentioned are slow growing.

The second reason is because of your light regime. While I do not think it is wrong, as I am running my light at 30% for 6 hours, to help mitigate algae. Though I would be curious to see where the lights are placed. 

Another thought is the 3 fast growers may be using up the NO3 before the other plants can get them, if you are not dosing and only what the fish provides. 

I am sure some of the more experienced planties may be able to provide more feedback on this. 

Edited March 30, 2022 by SkaleyAquatics

[gardenman]

In my experience, plants do what they do. I've had plants thriving in one tank and doing nothing in another with the same water chemistry and lighting. (At least as far as I can tell. I'm sure the plants think something's different.) I'm to the point where if it grows, great! If not, oh well.

[Mmiller2001]

On 3/30/2022 at 5:22 AM, DaveO said:

I would extend the lights to eight hours and see if those plants respond after a couple weeks or so.

I agree here.

What substrate are you using?

What is the GH and KH and which Micro Mix are you using?

"AR, blyxa japonica, rotala bonsai" these are difficult plants. For AR, don't move it and remove all struggling leaves and cut the top when it gets too tall. Don't top and replant. As for the others, sometimes, plants need time to adapt to your tank's parameters and then they will take off. I could never get any Blyxa to grow in my tanks and gave up on those. To quote my favorite aquarist, "Sometimes, it's best to invite those who enjoy the soup you serve." If a plant doesn't do well in my tank, I toss it and try a different one.

[Patrick_G]

I’m going to agree with @DaveO, but I think you also might need a bit more intensity if those are Nicrew lights you’re using. I’d turn them up to full blast and try a longer photoperiod. You’ll get just about double par in the area where the two lights overlap so that might be the spot to place the difficult plants. 
If you’re still struggling in a few months it’s ok to try different plants. You’ll find several that would be good substitutes for the three that are giving you problems. 

Edited March 30, 2022 by Patrick_G

[anewbie]

My Blyxa novo is growing well but it is not the deep orange it was in the sellers tank. As to your question I think @Mmiller2001is asking the right condition. Different plants have different requirements with regards to kh,gh,ph,lights, ... What grows well in soft acidic water might struggle or die in hard alkaline water and what-have you. I read an article on plants that made the following statement - stick with what grows and accept that some species won't grow in your environment. Having said that i'll probably try ar mini again (mine grew rapidly for 3 months and then suddenly died off).

[gardenman]

There's also the issue of allelopathy. It's a sort of chemical warfare plants do against one another. Some plants can get pretty aggressive guarding their turf (sunlight, nutrients, etc.) and will emit chemicals they're immune to that will stunt or even kill other plants. When one plant thrives, it's often because it's doing everything it can to kill off its competition. In a confined tank space, that chemical warfare can be enhanced over what it is in a more wide-open pond/river. 

[RadMax8]

Hi all, thank you for taking the time to respond. I will do my best to answer some of the questions below:

On 3/30/2022 at 7:49 AM, JoeQ said:

It could be placement/light related. My S. Repens grows fine without co2 but if I plant it 6 inches away it barely survives. Same thing with my AR, if its not in the 'sweet spot' under the light it barely grows. Do you have a support cross bar in your tank?

It's a 40b tank, so there's no support bar. I am using a glass top, but the plant is located closer to the front of the tank, and it's got direct light.

On 3/30/2022 at 8:28 AM, SkaleyAquatics said:

How long has the tank been setup?

The first reason I ask is because my AR is very slow growing and does not like to be uprooted. I personally do not have experience with the other ones you mentioned are slow growing.

The second reason is because of your light regime. While I do not think it is wrong, as I am running my light at 30% for 6 hours, to help mitigate algae. Though I would be curious to see where the lights are placed. 

Another thought is the 3 fast growers may be using up the NO3 before the other plants can get them, if you are not dosing and only what the fish provides. 

I am sure some of the more experienced planties may be able to provide more feedback on this. 

Tank has been running continuously for almost 5 years now. I have tried AR multiple times in the past, but never had great success. The last time I put it in this tank was about a month ago. Started off ok, but has struggled a bit in the last 2-3 weeks.

In regards to the light, I've got them placed roughly an inch from the glass top in an effort to get more punch from my lights. 

As far as NO3 consumption, at the beginning of the week after water change I'm at about 20ppm, by the end I'm closer to 40ppm so I don't think that's an issue.

On 3/30/2022 at 1:07 PM, Mmiller2001 said:

I agree here.

What substrate are you using?

What is the GH and KH and which Micro Mix are you using?

"AR, blyxa japonica, rotala bonsai" these are difficult plants. For AR, don't move it and remove all struggling leaves and cut the top when it gets too tall. Don't top and replant. As for the others, sometimes, plants need time to adapt to your tank's parameters and then they will take off. I could never get any Blyxa to grow in my tanks and gave up on those. To quote my favorite aquarist, "Sometimes, it's best to invite those who enjoy the soup you serve." If a plant doesn't do well in my tank, I toss it and try a different one.

I put Brightwell Aquatics Rio Escuro in this tank when I started it 5 years ago. I've not done anything with it since then. My GH is around 7 degrees (125ppm) and my KH is roughly 5 degrees (90ppm). I'm using CSM+B for my micros. The kicker is I've had good luck with blyxa and rotala bonsai in the past, I just feel like I'm doing something wrong.

Edited March 31, 2022 by RadMax8

[Mmiller2001]

What's the tank pH?

[anewbie]

On 3/31/2022 at 8:12 AM, gardenman said:

There's also the issue of allelopathy. It's a sort of chemical warfare plants do against one another. Some plants can get pretty aggressive guarding their turf (sunlight, nutrients, etc.) and will emit chemicals they're immune to that will stunt or even kill other plants. When one plant thrives, it's often because it's doing everything it can to kill off its competition. In a confined tank space, that chemical warfare can be enhanced over what it is in a more wide-open pond/river. 

I've seen people claim allelopathy quite frequently but i've never seen it with plants people have claim are examples... I'm leaning towards this as being a myth or at most the effect is quite minor. Having said this the closest example I had was when my jungle val stangled my sword plant rhizome by wrapping roots around it. That definitely had a negative impact on the sword plant until i removed the jungle val but that was more physical than chemical.

Edited March 31, 2022 by anewbie

[RadMax8]

On 3/31/2022 at 11:13 AM, Mmiller2001 said:

What's the tank pH?

Normal water pH is around 7.1-7.2, when I’ve got CO2 fully going it’s at 5.9. 

[Mmiller2001]

On 3/31/2022 at 2:04 PM, RadMax8 said:

Normal water pH is around 7.1-7.2, when I’ve got CO2 fully going it’s at 5.9. 

If this was me, I'd drop the GH and KH to around 4dGH and 2.5dKH (KH lower is better). Just cut your tap water with 50% distilled water. I'd also lower the CSM+B to about .4ppm Fe (proxy). Make sure to dose the micros when the pH is below 6.8. If you want to dose more Fe, get the DTPA 11% Fe and dose additional Fe using that. Dosing .7ppm Fe from the CSMB is putting your other micros on the high side.

Also, tanks that use NO3 generated by livestock typically have problems. I would reduce stocking levels, or up my water change percentages so I could dose NO3 properly.

Edited March 31, 2022 by Mmiller2001

[RadMax8]

On 3/31/2022 at 5:12 PM, Mmiller2001 said:

If this was me, I'd drop the GH and KH to around 4dGH and 2.5dKH (KH lower is better). Just cut your tap water with 50% distilled water. I'd also lower the CSM+B to about .4ppm Fe (proxy). Make sure to dose the micros when the pH is below 6.8. If you want to dose more Fe, get the DTPA 11% Fe and dose additional Fe using that. Dosing .7ppm Fe from the CSMB is putting your other micros on the high side.

Also, tanks that use NO3 generated by livestock typically have problems. I would reduce stocking levels, or up my water change percentages so I could dose NO3 properly.

I would probably need to look into getting an RO system, I don't know if I could keep up with 10 gallons of distilled water per week. I will also start decreasing my micros, which should be easy enough to just cut in half to 1/16 tsp per day (I'm dosing dry for the time being). 

I read in your journal that you said NO3 from fish causes issues. Do you have an article or something I could read on that? I find it interesting and would like to learn more about what the issue is. Seems to me NO3 should be the same regardless where it comes from, but like I said I'm interested in learning how that assumption is wrong!

[Mmiller2001]

There's no specific article, but a general consensus from top planted tank keepers. Sadly, one of the best journals was deleted over on another forum, and they had discussions about this very thing. 

I will pm you his new journal, but it's only just starting over. I know he is hoping to repost the old journal, but there might be some legal issues there. Fingers crossed!

[SkaleyAquatics]

On 4/1/2022 at 12:37 PM, Mmiller2001 said:

There's no specific article, but a general consensus from top planted tank keepers. Sadly, one of the best journals was deleted over on another forum, and they had discussions about this very thing. 

I will pm you his new journal, but it's only just starting over. I know he is hoping to repost the old journal, but there might be some legal issues there. Fingers crossed!

Could you PM me the new journal as well. I have been looking for it.

[Torrey]

On 4/1/2022 at 9:40 AM, RadMax8 said:

I would probably need to look into getting an RO system, I don't know if I could keep up with 10 gallons of distilled water per week. I will also start decreasing my micros, which should be easy enough to just cut in half to 1/16 tsp per day (I'm dosing dry for the time being). 

I read in your journal that you said NO3 from fish causes issues. Do you have an article or something I could read on that? I find it interesting and would like to learn more about what the issue is. Seems to me NO3 should be the same regardless where it comes from, but like I said I'm interested in learning how that assumption is wrong!

@RadMax8 I chose a ZeroWater over an RO/DI system because desert living doesn't tolerate water waste. I can say I am thrilled with the investment, worth every penny. Only downside to the ZeroWater is every once in a while you need to "burp" the filter. Our tap is over 250/ almost 300+ TDS. @Mmiller2001 said TDS may be contributing to my cyanobacteria problem I was having.

He was correct.

I don't use C02, and I am not as savvy with the ferts as Mmiller2001 is, I am good with cost effectiveness.

I paid $30 for a small 20 cup ZeroFilter because that was the same cost as the TDS meter that came with it, as a test. Almost 2 months and 45 gallons  later, I just invested in another $10 filter replacement because the filter is now leaving the water with 4 TDS and will need to be replaced soon. Bonus: our dogs' kidney function has improved on the new water.

My favorite part?

No wasted effluent water from an RO process.

[RadMax8]

Hey friends, just wanted to share a quick update with you all, since you took the time to help me. 

I’m working on making a lot of the changes that have been recommended, firstly I cranked both of my Finnex Planted+ 24/7 lights up to max intensity, minus the blue channel. Next, I’m working my way up from a 6.5 hour photoperiod to an 8 hour. I’m at 7.5 now, in a couple days I’ll bump it up to a solid workday for those lazy plants! I’ve also reduced my macro dosing down by half.

On to the update: my water change day is Sunday, so naturally I started making changes during the week. To my surprise, I started noticing some positive changes. There’s some new healthy-ish growth on my AR, my blyxa perked up a bit, I noticed some newer looking growth on my bacopa, and my one little twig of staur repens has gotten (marginally) larger. During my water change this week, I checked nitrates and they were in the 10-20 range (I have a hard time telling the reds and oranges apart), which tells me the plants are working harder. I trimmed out a ton of algae-affected leaves and H2O2 blasted ones I didn’t want to cut out. 

Some negatives of the extra light include some newer hair algae growth on my tall driftwood, which I wish my Amano shrimp would get to work on, but that was removed. I also need to keep an eye on the BBA propagation.

I know it’s still early, but I’m hoping things keep trending in the positive direction and I can just make tweaks moving forward. We’ll see in a few weeks. 

I will try to get some photos for you all to look at instead of imagining my tank. Thanks again for your input!

 

[Mattlikesfish36]

On 4/4/2022 at 10:25 PM, RadMax8 said:

Hey friends, just wanted to share a quick update with you all, since you took the time to help me. 

I’m working on making a lot of the changes that have been recommended, firstly I cranked both of my Finnex Planted+ 24/7 lights up to max intensity, minus the blue channel. Next, I’m working my way up from a 6.5 hour photoperiod to an 8 hour. I’m at 7.5 now, in a couple days I’ll bump it up to a solid workday for those lazy plants! I’ve also reduced my macro dosing down by half.

On to the update: my water change day is Sunday, so naturally I started making changes during the week. To my surprise, I started noticing some positive changes. There’s some new healthy-ish growth on my AR, my blyxa perked up a bit, I noticed some newer looking growth on my bacopa, and my one little twig of staur repens has gotten (marginally) larger. During my water change this week, I checked nitrates and they were in the 10-20 range (I have a hard time telling the reds and oranges apart), which tells me the plants are working harder. I trimmed out a ton of algae-affected leaves and H2O2 blasted ones I didn’t want to cut out. 

Some negatives of the extra light include some newer hair algae growth on my tall driftwood, which I wish my Amano shrimp would get to work on, but that was removed. I also need to keep an eye on the BBA propagation.

I know it’s still early, but I’m hoping things keep trending in the positive direction and I can just make tweaks moving forward. We’ll see in a few weeks. 

I will try to get some photos for you all to look at instead of imagining my tank. Thanks again for your input!

 

@RadMax8do you turn the blue light all the way down on your light? I also have a Finnex planted plus and I tried turning the blue channel all the way down to mitigate algae, but I’m not a fan of how my aquarium looks with no blue 

[RadMax8]

On 4/5/2022 at 8:27 AM, Mattlikesfish36 said:

@RadMax8do you turn the blue light all the way down on your light? I also have a Finnex planted plus and I tried turning the blue channel all the way down to mitigate algae, but I’m not a fan of how my aquarium looks with no blue 

I did have it all the way down, but since I changed my settings I put it about 50%. You’re right, it looks a little odd with no blue light.