Should I remove the male?

[Spencer Heaton]

Hi Everyone,

Quick Question - more of an opinion really.

I have just seen my female Apistogramma cacatuoides Double Red swimming around the tank with Fry. Both the male and female are being very aggressive to the 6x sterbai cory cats so I am going to try to catch them and remove them.

There are 6x pencil fish (3 stripe) that they seem to be ignoring but I am wondering if I should also pull the male.

In doing some research there seems to be a split camp on this if the male is parenting you should leave him in the tank and currently he is very focused on the corys but I am concerned if I remove the corys that he will stop protecting the fry the way he currently seems to be doing?

The Fry are free swimming and today is the first day I have noticed they had them. I have bred a lot of fish before but I am rather new (2 years) in regards to keeping Apistos.

Please let me know your opinion or if you have any questions. Thanks in advance for your help!!!!

Thanks,

Spencer

[Fish Folk]

On 3/21/2022 at 6:18 PM, Spencer Heaton said:

Hi Everyone,

Quick Question - more of an opinion really.

I have just seen my female Apistogramma cacatuoides Double Red swimming around the tank with Fry. Both the male and female are being very aggressive to the 6x sterbai cory cats so I am going to try to catch them and remove them.

There are 6x pencil fish (3 stripe) that they seem to be ignoring but I am wondering if I should also pull the male.

In doing some research there seems to be a split camp on this if the male is parenting you should leave him in the tank and currently he is very focused on the corys but I am concerned if I remove the corys that he will stop protecting the fry the way he currently seems to be doing?

The Fry are free swimming and today is the first day I have noticed they had them. I have bred a lot of fish before but I am rather new (2 years) in regards to keeping Apistos.

Please let me know your opinion or if you have any questions. Thanks in advance for your help!!!!

Thanks,

Spencer

I’m new to Apistogramma Cacatouides too. I’d definitely leave female to tend fry til they’re ok. Male, I’d remove. 

[MN-AQUARIST]

I would suggest leaving the male for now,  and giving him a chance to help raise the fry,  if he ends up being a bad parent you can always remove him next time around. I've have good luck personally with several different males in different pairs but as you stated it can go either way.  

[Spencer Heaton]

Thanks Fish Folk & MN-AQUARIST,

Seems like we are split down the middle still!!! I guess the best move currently is to do nothing and see what happens. He seems to be chasing the corys and pencil fish anytime they get near the fry or the female as she seems to not let him too close to the Fry but he does not seem to be trying to get closer either so maybe we have a good Dad here!!!!

Here are some picks of them just for some fun!!! As you can see Dad was not happy I got that close to the tank!!!

Thanks again to both of you...

Spencer

 

 

Edited March 22, 2022 by Spencer Heaton

[tolstoy21]

I typically remove the male for 2 reasons 1) If he's a new parent, he could potentially snack on his kids 2) The female can beat the heck out of him (I had one rip off half the male's tail fin!).

That being said, I have a male and female in a tank with fry currently (lack of tank space to relocate the male) and have my fingers crossed. 

Every pair is different. And they get better at fry raising over time. However, I almost never chance it. I'll typically pull the male the moment I believe the female has fry in the cave.

Edited March 22, 2022 by tolstoy21

[Spencer Heaton]

Thanks tolstoy21

So far so good - no major beatings and 4+ days of alive fry!!!

[Spencer Heaton]

So I pulled the male this morning and just put him in a large breeder box (temp) till I figure out what to do - hang on the tank one with water flow from the tank.

He was starting to get really aggressive with the female and although she was fighting back it seemed most of her time was fighting him back versus tending to the fry.

She seems much calmer now that he is gone and I will watch her to see if removing him helps.

How long should I let her tend to the fry?

Was thinking I could pull the fry into the breeder box and put the male back in the tank in a few days if that works? I have the Fluval 17' fry feeder (turkey baster) device that I think I could suck them up with - thoughts?

Thanks,

Spencer

[anewbie]

deleted this post because much of what i said was incorrect. The things we have learned the past 2 years....

 

Edited March 8 by anewbie

[Spencer Heaton]

I know - I had really hoped I could leave them both together but I was worried he would eat the fry as it looks like he is ready to spawn again

Edited March 27, 2022 by Spencer Heaton

[Jaspyjasp]

@anewbie- My male trifasciata is currently somewhat harrassing my female apisto as well, as she is trying to raise fry. They seem to be bickering more. The fry are still super small and need her around. So it’s okay to keep the male in the tank? The first time I did this, I removed him, but it would be my preference to keep him in the 22L (36x12x12) b/c I’m out of tanks and space 😕 Thanks for any insight!

[anewbie]

@Jaspyjasp

 

I'd remove him but a lot depends on how the tank is setup (scaped). 

 

Trifasciata like cockatoo are not pair forming; the male just wants to breed and in a crude sense provides a safe environment for the female to raise her frys but he does not help in fry raising and if the area is small he might keep trying to breed with her even if she has fry. It is the problem with a small glass box. Also Triasciata m/f aggression can be quite high. 

-

If she can't find a safe haven for raising the fry - in some cases the female will kill the male but in this case it sounds like he is too much for her to handle.

 

If you want pair forming species of apistogramma look for panduro or nijjensi. They don't necessarily mate for life but the male and female will bond and both will care for the fry and there is not so much aggression between them when it comes to raising frys.

 

--

The way it works with polygamous species of apistogramma is the male defines a territory. This territory can be quite large but it depends on the species. If a female wants to breed with that male she will enter his territory and find an area to be her territory to raise the frys; signal the male and lay eggs. The male guards the larger parameter. With small glass boxes we can run into a number of issues:

First the female has no choice she can't leave his territory; 2nd tanks are frequently scaped with inadequate hiding locations for the female; third if the female doesn't want to breed she has no place to go and last there is a limit number of available females for the male to breed with which means he focus too much attention on fewer females. 

-

The female is the sole provider to the frys in this case and the male only interest is in guarding the larger area and checking on females to see if they want to breed or driving them away from his territory. 

In the case of my wc cockatoo they have pretty much claim most of a 40B so we can see that their area can be fairly large. I could probably have gotten away with a 2nd female in there but certainly no other male or other species of cichild. 

There is another problem that these fishes use complex signals to 'talk' to each other and with domestic fishes often the process of producing enhance colouring has also made it much more difficult for them to signal their intention to each other and other fishes.

-

For example domestic angelfishes you rarely see strong changes in colouring base on mood; but with wild angelfishes (altum); you will see their strips get much darker and their fins raise showing obvious intention of aggression. Fishes around them will take these signals serious and give them some space. I see this all the time with my festivum - when angry they get very very dark very quickly and the other cichild immediately respond by giving him some space rather than obtaining a nasty bite.

 

 

Edited March 8 by anewbie

[Jaspyjasp]

On 3/7/2024 at 1:27 PM, anewbie said:

@Jaspyjasp

 

I'd remove him but a lot depends on how the tank is setup (scaped). 

 

Trifasciata like cockatoo are not pair forming; the male just wants to breed and in a crude sense provides a safe environment for the female to raise her frys but he does not help in fry raising and if the area is small he might keep trying to breed with her even if she has fry. It is the problem with a small glass box. Also Triasciata m/f aggression can be quite high. 

-

If she can't find a safe haven for raising the fry - in some cases the female will kill the male but in this case it sounds like he is too much for her to handle.

 

If you want pair forming species of apistogramma look for panduro or nijjensi. They don't necessarily mate for life but the male and female will bond and both will care for the fry and there is not so much aggression between them when it comes to raising frys.

 

--

The way it works with polygamous species of apistogramma is the male defines a territory. This territory can be quite large but it depends on the species. If a female wants to breed with that male she will enter his territory and find an area to be her territory to raise the frys; signal the male and lay eggs. The male guards the larger parameter. With small glass boxes we can run into a number of issues:

First the female has no choice she can't leave his territory; 2nd tanks are frequently scaped with inadequate hiding locations for the female; third if the female doesn't want to breed she has no place to go and last there is a limit number of available females for the male to breed with which means he focus too much attention on fewer females. 

-

The female is the sole provider to the frys in this case and the male only interest is in guarding the larger area and checking on females to see if they want to breed or driving them away from his territory. 

In the case of my wc cockatoo they have pretty much claim most of a 40B so we can see that their area can be fairly large. I could probably have gotten away with a 2nd female in there but certainly no other male or other species of cichild. 

There is another problem that these fishes use complex signals to 'talk' to each other and with domestic fishes often the process of producing enhance colouring has also made it much more difficult for them to signal their intention to each other and other fishes.

-

For example domestic angelfishes you rarely see strong changes in colouring base on mood; but with wild angelfishes (altum); you will see their strips get much darker and their fins raise showing obvious intention of aggression. Fishes around them will take these signals serious and give them some space. I see this all the time with my festivum - when angry they get very very dark very quickly and the other cichild immediately respond by giving him some space rather than obtaining a nasty bite.

 

 

@anewbie Omg THANK YOU SO MUCH for such a detailed and informative explanation! I wish i had a different species 🤣🫥 Ironically i got them bc i saw ppl mention that trifasciafa are good beginner apistos and a trifasciata breedinf video said you could keep the parents together 🤣☠️ Now I’m uncovering all these other truths! Unfortunately my QT is being occupied and the other tanks are high flow or housing my first set of apisto fry (another story ). I’ll try to move him out asap, but i am worried about their aggression 🫣 Thank you again! 
 

@anewbiehere’s a photo of my setup. I redid it to try to do more sight blocks but i dunno 🤷 I added more leaf litter and twigs to do more blocks but it might be too late 🫣

Edited March 8 by Jaspyjasp

[Jaspyjasp]

@anewbie It looks like my trifasciata spawned again and we have 23-25 little fry hanging out with the mother!! How long should I keep the fry with the mother in the display tank before I remove them? My thought is to let the mom raise the fry for a few weeks and remove dad when he starts to get agro. After a few weeks, I’ll suck the remaining fry out with a turkey baster and put them into a 10G to grow out. I could keep them in the planted display tank but i’m also thinking how painful it will be to remove them when they get too fast for me to catch. What do you think?

[Tlindsey]

On 3/28/2024 at 12:32 AM, Jaspyjasp said:

@anewbie It looks like my trifasciata spawned again and we have 23-25 little fry hanging out with the mother!! How long should I keep the fry with the mother in the display tank before I remove them? My thought is to let the mom raise the fry for a few weeks and remove dad when he starts to get agro. After a few weeks, I’ll suck the remaining fry out with a turkey baster and put them into a 10G to grow out. I could keep them in the planted display tank but i’m also thinking how painful it will be to remove them when they get too fast for me to catch. What do you think?

I like your plan. Whatever is easier for you especially removing the fry.

[anewbie]

On 3/27/2024 at 11:32 PM, Jaspyjasp said:

@anewbie It looks like my trifasciata spawned again and we have 23-25 little fry hanging out with the mother!! How long should I keep the fry with the mother in the display tank before I remove them? My thought is to let the mom raise the fry for a few weeks and remove dad when he starts to get agro. After a few weeks, I’ll suck the remaining fry out with a turkey baster and put them into a 10G to grow out. I could keep them in the planted display tank but i’m also thinking how painful it will be to remove them when they get too fast for me to catch. What do you think?

Your plan is generally a good one; it is good to leave the frys with the mother as she will care for them and teach them a few things in the process. The negatives is if you have predators in your display aquarium they will be eaten. As for the male it depends; in a small enclosure like an aquarium they can pester the female before she is ready to breed again; though sometime the male will leave her alone while she has frys. This is very male dependent so there is no right/wrong. If things go well the female will care for the frys 3 to 8 weeks again this depend on the female though some species tend to raise them longer. While i've not bred trifs with the species i have truth be told i never need to remove the frys until they get large enough that the male starts chasing them away; this is more territorial but they don't actually hunt/eat the frys. 

 

If you have predators (most tetra are predators); and you want to raise the frys then you might have to remove them sooner than later. I found ember tetra pretty passive and reluctant to challenge the female but cardinals can get pretty aggressive at going after frys and forget it with the larger diamond shaped tetras.

 

Your aquarium seems to be fairly large - i noticed that my female would move the frys to the very back where the male couldnt' really find her and if your does the same you might not have to remove the frys for a while. I use a turkey blaster to inject bbs. I found that for most apsito bbs is a must if you wish to raise the frys; though after 3 or 4 weeks i can switch to flakes or powder food. Sponge filters are also great as they provide munching grounds for young fishes.

Edited March 28 by anewbie

[Jaspyjasp]

@anewbie thank you! I don’t have any tetra in this tank yet, just corys and a few endlers that always stay at the top. Ive been using a baster to target feed with infusoria and bbs, i think thats how i have so many fry versus the first time.  My male seems very persistent when it comes to breeding, i may have to take him out sooner to let mom care for the fry 😅🤦 But they are also a young couple so maybe he will learn to be more patient. 
 

i got kind of panicky last night thinking about how to care for all the bebes in the future 🤣🙈 I am def going to raise this batch, but it occurred to me this cycle will continue if I leave the pair in the display tank - they were so quick to respawn! I prob can’t handle multiple batches, I still have two fry from two spawns ago and still waiting to sex them (been since last September!). I guess the only real way to control breeding is with tetras (predators) or separating the male/female apistos. I have a decision to make 😭🫥

 

[anewbie]

Well you can just ignore when they spawn and most of the frys won't make it; or if you want to reduce the stress remove the female. Btw cory are general bad fish to keep with breeding dwarf cichild since they dont' recognize territories; i.e, they will swim into the cichild territory multiple times only to be chased out causing unnecessary stress; though it is possible over time the cichild might learn that they mean no harm and ignore them.

[Jaspyjasp]

Yeah…thx for the tips. The cory are very naive and keep going into the mom’s area, but she is actually not too bad towards them. She is more aggressive with the male. But yeah, i hear you. It hasn’t been too terrible but there is a bit of chasing. Poor cories.

It’s hard to ignore the fry. I get too excited when they’re in there and then I want to keep them 🙈 But yeah I shouldnt feed them.  Or maybe it’s best to separate the male/female. I do need a top dwelling fish, my tank always looks empty. I dunno, i guess i’ll just feel bad either way 🙈 Next time all male apisto tank 🫠

 

 

[Jaspyjasp]

@anewbie I have 2 little apisto trif from the pair’s first batch in a 10G. I want to consolidate tanks to raise the fry and  remove the dad for a while. If I remove the dad from the 22L, can I add the 2 juveniles into the 22L(36x12x12) with the mom and new fry to finish growing out? There’s a lot of hardscape and plants for them to hide from their mom while she protects her new fry. I will try to sell/give them away once they get big enough. Thoughts? Here’s a pic of the 22L tank again. 

 

 

[anewbie]

My guess is you can but females do have their own territories; usually smaller but they should understand that soon enough. However no promises 😉

 

 

[Jaspyjasp]

@anewbie For sure! Yes her territory is much smaller. The juvies are smart so they should keep away. Ok thank you! It would help a lot if i can consolidate temporarily. THANK YOU SO MUCH! 🙏🙏🙏 I’m sure you’ll hear from me again 🤣🫣