Water quality mystery? - With Losing fishes

[MyFish]

Hello everyone,

I need help; I’m stumped 🤔.  I keep getting an ammonia reading with zero nitrates and minimal nitrates.   I am losing a fish every other day!  This really is sad, concerning and out right stinks (no pun)!

I have 55 gallon with Fluval stratum, many plants been running the tank since Jan 9. Added fish Firstvweek Feb; my uodate post is around here somewhere with that exact info.

no matter what I do can’t get ammonia to zero.  NOW I know there is a dead fish in there one of my Columbian tetras, prob 2; and I can’t find them anywhere.  But it should keep the ammonia up like that….

help?

-Louis

(My Fish)

 

Edited February 16, 2022 by MyFish
Add pic

[tolstoy21]

How long has the tank been up and running? 

Edit ~ I see you answered that, about a month. 

Did you ever see nitrite readings?

Edited February 16, 2022 by tolstoy21

[MyFish]

Yes, I have seen nitrate about 3-4 weeks ago. When they went to zero that’s when I bought my fish.  

[CT_]

how much are you feeding?   I'd feed minimally until your "cycle" finishes.  Maybe every third day.  then when ammonia is back to 0 every other day, keep an eye on it and then go to every day.  You may have had a tank that was ready for a low load but then increased the load too fast.

[Tommy Vercetti]

I would 50% water change daily, until ammonia reads zero. Then taper off starting with 50% water change every other day for a week. Then once a week, unless I detected ammonia on a given day, In which case, you guessed it, 50% water change. Good luck, it will go away with some work and some patience. Be sure not to over feed the tank. 

[MyFish]

Yes I put 26 fish in at in once; I was running two filters 700gph; but that still wasn’t enough so I added a sponge and another HOB.  After all that 1ppm ammonia; and I do feed every other day…. 😕. 

[CT_]

Yeah its not a matter of GPH so much as how much bacteria you have.  the good news is that they grow themselves and can double in about a day.

[Rory Waliser]

Not sure if this is correct, but my thought process is that your tank was cycled but the biofilter couldn't handle that much of an increase in waste when you added all of the stock. It should, in theory, fix itself. I agree with @Tommy Vercetti on the water changes until you stop seeing the ammonia. Your biofilter will strengthen as the beneficial bacteria become more plentiful.

[MyFish]

I’ve been adding additional bacteria daily; as to not upset the eco-system with a huge water change for a week; tomorrow is my big water change!  Hope it works out.

BTW:  it was so difficult to cycle with stratum, don’t think I’ll use that again for a big tank.  (Due to the :6.0-6.5ph) 

[Torrey]

On 2/15/2022 at 10:13 PM, MyFish said:

Yes I put 26 fish in at in once; I was running two filters 700gph; but that still wasn’t enough so I added a sponge and another HOB.  After all that 1ppm ammonia; and I do feed every other day…. 😕. 

The amount of filters a person runs is technically (and counterintuitively) irrelevant. 

A filter is only as helpful as the quality and quantity of beneficial bacteria seeding the filter.

An empty 55 gallon (empty of livestock) takes quite some time to establish a matching beneficial bacteria colony. Adding 26 fish at once created more bioload than the bacteria could handle. I am guessing that with ammonia that high, and zero nitrites, the cycle crashed.

At this point, you are doing a fish in cycle. 

Not ideal, and also not unusual. 

Tetras are notoriously sensitive to water parameters, and are essentially your "canary in the coal mine". The good news is, you were willing to ask for help. 

Here are the steps to success:

1. If you have SeaChem Prime, it's about to become your best friend. Do 50% water changes each morning and each evening, and dose the aquarium for 55 gallons with each water change. This will help bind any ammonia and nitrites to reduce the damage done to the fish. Prime will bind the ammonia for 48 hours, so it will stop showing up on your tests, and do your water changes anyway. This is the equivalent of applying a tourniquet to stop bleeding out.

2. Feed less. Feed only enough for the fish to eat before any hits the bottom of the tank, every other day. Take some pictures of your fish so we can help you identify if they need more food, less food, or medical treatment. 

3. Increase your aeration in your tank. Do you have any plants? Algae? Moss?

4. Update with your pH in your tank, so we know how much wiggle room you have. Ammonia is more lethal the higher the pH.

5. Test your tap water to identify pH, hardness (GH & kH), ammonia, nitrites and nitrates in your tap water. If possible, fill a jug with tap water, and plop an aeration stone in overnight, to get a better idea of your source water quality. Post your results in here.

All of us have had a similar learning curve, because we don't know what we don't know. 

If you can maintain the 2x/ day water changes for the rest of the week, it should prevent the remaining fish from developing worse gill burns. Next weekend, we can coach you through the next steps, to see if you can back down to one water change a day for a few weeks. 

Edit:

I didn't write out #5 very clearly. 

Test your water right out of the tap. **ALSO** if at all possible, put some water in a jug or a bucket, add an airstone, and test *that* water in the morning. If the tests have different parameters, that information helps us coach you better.

[Torrey]

@MyFish are you running CO2 in this tank?

If you are, @gjcarew and @Mmiller2001 are far more knowledgeable than I am, regarding CO2 and it's impact on fish.

If you are not running CO2 then I stand by my original recommendations.

[MyFish]

Yes I’m running Co2, I have several plants. Stratum as a substrate so my phone never really gets above 7, last I checked it was 6.5.

I’m starting to do 10% water changes daily.  50% way to much especially with lots of plants.   Here’s my tank.

[Torrey]

I'm going to recommend talking with gjcarew and Mmiller2001 then. There are additional components involved, that are beyond my scope of practice once CO2 injection comes into play. 

Multiple water changes to keep the ammonia down will help you keep your fish. I can't remember how long stratum can offgas nutrients, that may be playing a part, too. Under 6.0 pH the 1.0 ppm ammonia would be less lethal. The reason you haven't lost more fish is your pH being below 7 pH.

@Mmiller2001 is awesome with CO2, I am sure he can help you. 

[Chad]

Have you checked to see how much nitrate is in your water before you put it into your tank? I got false readings because of this. Thought it was cycled, it wasn't, just had nitrates in my tap water.

Sorry, I see @Torrey mentioned this already and I glossed over it, my bad.

[MyFish]

On 2/16/2022 at 4:59 PM, Torrey said:

I'm going to recommend talking with gjcarew and Mmiller2001 then. There are additional components involved, that are beyond my scope of practice once CO2 injection comes into play. 

Multiple water changes to keep the ammonia down will help you keep your fish. I can't remember how long stratum can offgas nutrients, that may be playing a part, too. Under 6.0 pH the 1.0 ppm ammonia would be less lethal. The reason you haven't lost more fish is your pH being below 7 pH.

@Mmiller2001 is awesome with CO2, I am sure he can help you. 

I tell you what though… I’m never using stratum again unless I have a shimp tank or Dutch aquarium!  LOL 😂 

never had this problem with seachem fourite clay in the past. 
oh I used RODI water to fill oringally; for the 10% water changes I’m using tap.  (PH at 7.6 TAP).  Never tested nitrites but in tank nitrites are zero. And nitrates 10.

I should have paid attention in chemistry class. 😂 

Edited February 16, 2022 by MyFish

[Mmiller2001]

On 2/16/2022 at 2:51 PM, MyFish said:

50% way to much especially with lots of plants.   Here’s my tank.

I know it seems like too much, but it's not. If I was in this situation, I'd be doing 90% changes as often as I saw ammonia. 

I was doing 90% twice a week on my 40. Once I get closer to my deadline, I will be increasing to 90% 3 times a week.

[MyFish]

 With that much volume of water change what about the bactera?  It expensive to keep adding api conditioner and quick start  + stress zone.  That’s why I was doing wveryday a couple of small water changes….

thoughts…. I know this will be fine by the weekend at least it should based on the tanks length of time running and 0 nitrates…. It was my mistake to put so many fish in at once!  DUH 🙄 

[Torrey]

On 2/16/2022 at 4:51 PM, MyFish said:

 With that much volume of water change what about the bactera?  It expensive to keep adding api conditioner and quick start  + stress zone.  That’s why I was doing wveryday a couple of small water changes….

thoughts…. I know this will be fine by the weekend at least it should based on the tanks length of time running and 0 nitrates…. It was my mistake to put so many fish in at once!  DUH 🙄 

This is (honestly) why I always buy SeaChem Prime & Stability by the gallon. And now that Cory and the Co-op have introduced me to Greg Sage (he's only an 8 hour drive away😳way closer than drives to the Co-op... which will absolutely resume once travel is no longer a potential death sentence), I am all about the big water changes if ammonia or nitrites are ever present. 

It's a no-brainer from my medical background perspective:

I wouldn't leave a child in a home with carbon monoxide present, because it would damage their lungs (and eventually brain).

So I'm not going to leave fish in an aquarium with ammonia or nitrites. If it's easier to take the fish out and get them in a cycled tank, that's one option (like when my heater broke and I relocated endlers to other tanks, and took 120 good breeders to my lfs rather than have them suffer).

If it's easier to do 2 x 50% water changes each day, do that.

[MyFish]

Rodger that; I agree with you; I was thinking of placing a couple in my 10gal to lessen the bio load.

[Mmiller2001]

On 2/16/2022 at 4:51 PM, MyFish said:

With that much volume of water change what about the bactera?

It's in the filters and substrate, not in the water.

[Rory Waliser]

@Torrey @Mmiller2001 Could the pH below 7, meaning higher CO2 content in the tank, cause issues with the ammonia present since there could be gill burn going on making it harder for the fish to intake oxygen? Or is the oxygen level completely independent from the CO2 level? Asking for my sake and @MyFish’s sake since I also run CO2 in a tank

[Mmiller2001]

CO2 and O2 are independent of each other. 

I imagine adding so many fish is the true problem while on a very biologically young tank. 

My competition tank pH is 4.7 and my 75 gallon is 4.9pH. Nitrification continues at low PH, this has been proven in several studies. It can slow down nitrification in the beginning slightly, but it should have no real impact on the tank. 

In fact, the lower your pH is, the less problem your ammonia is going to be for your fish.

 

 

Edited February 17, 2022 by Mmiller2001

[Torrey]

@Rory Waliser everything Mmiller2001 just said.

I believe @dasaltemelosguy had posted a graph (it may have been Mmiller2001, my recall on names is not fully recovered) that shows the toxicity of ammonia is inversely related to pH. 

Lower pH, less toxic ammonia is. Higher pH, ammonia is more toxic. 

[Rory Waliser]

@Torrey good to know! Sorry for hijacking the thread @MyFish

[modified lung]

Enjoy

Edited February 17, 2022 by modified lung