Cycling Issues

[Benny]

Evening,

I have had my 10 gal running since about January 8th-ish. My nitrites and nitrates are still at 0. I can't figure out why this would be happening. I have added bacteria, and introduced some more by buying plants. I have had a few snails in it since the start, so there is a consistent source of ammonia for the bacteria. The snails aren't handling it too well (I know fish-in cycling is not ideal), probably due to the fact that my water is slightly too acidic (6.7). All of my plants are doing quite well.

I water change 2 times a week, 40% changes.

I dose Easy Green once a week.

I can't find anything outstanding as to why the cycle hasn't at least started. Is there anything that could cause the bacteria to just die?

 

I appreciate all answers.

[1moretank]

Hello,  I think you might be stopping the cycle with your water changes.  Instead, may I suggest that you stop changing water twice a week - instead wait a week after you dose Easy Green, and then test your water.  Only do a water change if the Nitrates are over 40.  If they are less - no water change.  Then dose fertilizer again - wait a week and test again.  Only change water if Nitrates are over 40.

When you need to change water, only change 25% and then re-test to see what the Nitrates are.  If still above 40, you can change 25% a 2nd time.
If you want to speed everything up, you might try "ghost feeding" your tank a very small amount of fish food each day, as if you had one guppy in there.

Good luck, and keep us updated on your progress.

[Benny]

Sorry if I didn't convey it all correctly. I haven't gotten the cycle to start converting ammonia to nitrites to nitrates yet. Excessive nitrates aren't a concern. Currently all the stats I am getting is ammonia. It fluctuates with every waterchange, but I am trying to keep it below .25 ppm.

[Intuos]

As you are doing a fishless cycle I would advise you to stop doing water changes, as you have no stocking higher ammonia levels are better somewhere between 2-4ppm is what I usually aim for. 

[HH Morant]

I agree that if you don't have fish, don't change the water.

I don't know how much ammonia snails create. I never heard of anyone doing a snail-in cycle, so I don't know how that might work.

If you are doing a fish-in cycle, plants might help to lessen the severity of ammonia spikes and protect the fish. Maybe it is the same for snails.

But if there are no fish (or snails) in the tank, ammonia spikes are harmless. Ammonia/nitrite is the food that beneficial bacteria needs to multiply. Plants consume that ammonia/nitrite, and it seems logical to me that plants might slow the cycle by consuming the ammonia/nitrite that the beneficial bacteria needs.

If you think there is beneficial bacteria in the plant pot, then put the pot in the tank without the plant.

I would recommend that you use an ammonia source other than snails (buy some ammonium chloride powder online). I highly recommend the aquariumscience.org articles on cycling. I recently cycled a 120 gallon tank using the "how I cycle" method on that site. It took 2 weeks to complete the cycle (I had some seasoned filter media from my other tank) and the tank has been great now for more than 7 weeks after the fish were added. I did not add plants until a couple of weeks after the fish.

I would take the snails and plants out.

Bacteria-in-a-bottle products don't work. You should not rely on them. Again, see aquariumscience.org. articles regarding those products.

Good luck!

[lefty o]

i disagree with the above about the bottle bacteria dont work, they do and ive used them for decades. now if you are doing a fishless cycle you can not constantly be changing 40% of the water. that is just continually resetting what you are trying to do.

[Benny]

On 2/11/2022 at 6:43 AM, HH Morant said:

I highly recommend the aquariumscience.org articles on cycling. I recently cycled a 120 gallon tank using the "how I cycle" method on that site

I looked into that website. That article was a bit too advanced for my liking, but I will definitely use other articles on it.

On 2/11/2022 at 6:49 AM, lefty o said:

i disagree with the above about the bottle bacteria dont work, they do and ive used them for decades. now if you are doing a fishless cycle you can not constantly be changing 40% of the water. that is just continually resetting what you are trying to do.

That's what I had thought. I looked through this forum to see what people's opinion of bottled bacteria was, and many had thought it worked.

I have 3 mystery snails, plus some driftwood. I'll try cutting back on the changes, but I can't stop them completely sadly.

Edited February 12, 2022 by Benny
For grammar

[Patrick_G]

@Benny, if you’re using Easy Green you should be seeing Nitrate. Make sure you are following the directions on the test kit exactly. It’s very easy to get a false negative. 

Also have you been testing for ammonia? You might need to add some more to supplement what’s being produced by the snails. 
 

On 2/11/2022 at 8:49 AM, Benny said:

I have 3 mystery snails, plus some driftwood. I'll try cutting back on the changes, but I can't stop them completely sadly.

I don’t see a need to water change if you’re not seeing any toxins in the water. At your PH you can let the ammonia build a bit up without harming the snails. 

[modified lung]

I used to cycle 20-30 tanks a year and can give some insights. I think the main problem is your pH.

Low pH usually means low alkalinity and the bacteria you want need to eat alkalinity to reproduce. It's how they get carbon for their cell walls.

Low pH also means most of your total ammonia (NH3/NH4+) is in the NH4+ form but it's the NH3 form that the bacteria eat. 

Below pH 6.7 the bacteria population almost stop growing because they don't have enough food. When starved they can even enter dormancy which can take time to break.

I would add some baking soda during your cycle to increase the pH and alkalinity a little. When your bacteria population is large enough, you may not have to add it anymore as long as your water changes keep your alkalinity at least 40 ppm or 2 KH.

If your tank is always at pH 6.7, total ammonia is a lot less toxic at that low level so you have more wiggle room. For other reasons though it's still best to keep your total ammonia as low as you can for longer periods of time.

You can have up to 2 ppm total ammonia in your water during a cycle. You don't have to water change unless you get above that. Even up to 4 ppm is acceptable if you want a more hands off approach. Above that level and you start growing too much of the wrong species of bacteria.

Plants are fine as long as you maintain your levels of ammonia and watch your nitrites. But with plants it's much harder to tell when your cycle is complete. You may never get nitrates and you won't know if your ammonia is at 0 ppm because of your plants or bacteria. With plants, if your cycle isn't complete you could get longer nitrite spikes.

I use Ramshorn snails to cycle my tanks. Ammonia doesn't effect Ramshorn snails as much as fish. Idk if that's true of all species of snails though. It's possible mystery snails can't tolerate as much ammonia. You can always relocate them temporarily.

Ammonia chloride or just straight fish food works too. Idk what's in Easy Green. If others say it worked for them then I'm sure it does.

Bacteria in a bottle sometimes works and sometimes doesnt. A lot of brands don't have the right species of bacteria and never work. Only use brands that mention they contain Nitrospira. Those can work but still not always. 

[Patrick_G]

On 2/11/2022 at 10:29 AM, modified lung said:

Ammonia chloride or just straight fish food works too. Idk what's in Easy Green. If others say it worked for them then I'm sure it does.

I’m not sure, but it registers NO3 on a test but It’s  negative for NH3 or NH4+.

[Beardedbillygoat1975]

I think this is the time where you'll potentially need to decide on your stocking plan for this tank as it has a role in how I would proceed. I see 2 roads ahead:

1. If this is going to be a softer water tank pH <7 you'll need to take some steps as outlined above to temporarily increase your pH to move the cycle along. So if the stocking plan includes apistos, rams, angels, discus, any wild SA fishes I would follow @modified lungapproach of using baking soda to get your bacterial colony over the hump then getting away from that once the colony is established. 

2. If this is going to be a liver bearer, central American cichlid or African cichlid tank (Lake Tang or Malawi), most mixed community tanks using farmed not wild fish with goal being pH >7 and harder or hard water then I would get a pound of crushed coral and either put it in the substrate or in a bag in a hang on back or canister. This is the approach your snails will prefer as that is a ready source of calcium and minerals for their shell and will land you with a constant balance for your pH, gh and kh. That will take a little bit of time. 

Both these approaches will help your cycle. They will set you up for long term success as well. 

I bet you are closer than you think on cycling the tank. The surface of the tank most likely have a fair amount of bacteria already. If it was me I think you just stop water changing, keep ghost feeding the tank with food and fertilizer and watch it do it's thing. Only change water when you have to ie. ammonia 2-4.

Decide what species you are designing this tank for and use the appropriate approach. It seems technical but really it is tactical - designing an environment for the success of the ecosystem long term. 

Have fun, you'll look back at this and say hey I did this and it'll be awesome. 

[Benny]

On 2/11/2022 at 11:48 AM, Beardedbillygoat1975 said:

The surface of the tank most likely have a fair amount of bacteria already.

I skim the tank once a week. Is that possibly taking a large amount of bacteria with it?

I am planning on doing fish that can handle sub neutral PH. I hear that I can raise the PH by adding baking soda, but I don't want to add another variable to screw up 😅.

[AndEEss]

You basically have no source of ammonia. What little ammonia the snails produce is almost certainly taken up by the plants. 
 

Add a real (2ppm+) concentration of ammonia. Otherwise this will take forever.

[Beardedbillygoat1975]

@Bennyhaving bacteria and biofilm all on the inside of your tank is a beneficial thing. Not something you’ll be able to skim off without some sort of surfactant so nothing to worry about. I think you’re doing fine. As everyone has indicated you need a source of ammonia, a test kit and a bit more time. 

[Benny]

On 2/11/2022 at 5:35 PM, Beardedbillygoat1975 said:

As everyone has indicated you need a source of ammonia, a test kit and a bit more time. 

Got it. Thanks folks!

I'll update this thread when I end up getting nitrates!

[Benny]

Hey all!

Just thought I would throw out and say that the tank finished cycling!

I did nothing to my water (no WC's, no testing) for over a week, just to give it some time. A watched pot doesn't boil! I was prompted to test the water when my last remaining snail perked up. Sadly, the other two didn't make the cycling process. Apparently mystery snails don't handle ammonia very well at all. Now I get to make the exciting decisions on my stocking choice.

Anyway, ammonia and nitrates are zero since I have it so heavily planted. I greatly appreciate the help you all gave me.