Thoughts on one of my Honey Gouramis

[laritheloud]

So after working on the 55 gallon tank for a few months, my 29 gallon tank full of honey gouramis, corydoras, and diamond tetras has been doing great! Buuuut in the past week or so, I noticed my wild type male has become more and more reclusive. Today he didn't emerge from hiding to join the feeding frenzy this morning, and just appears to want to hide himself away. I had added an extra female to balance out my males/females in the tank (there's 4 honey gouramis now) and try to draw him out of his shell, but instead, he's hiding himself even more than before. I have checked on him throughout the day and he doesn't look like anything is physically wrong with him. No injury, normal pooping, a little plump in the belly but he's always been that way (and we even thought he was a female for a long time). He tends to hug the bottom of the tank and keep to himself. The other male chases him, but I've never seen injury. I fed the tank daphnia this afternoon because the fish usually go crazy for them, and everyone did -- except for him, who timidly nibbled a few bites and spat a few bites.

I know the obvious solution is to remove him and put him in a separate tank for closer monitoring, but... then what? My 20 gallon is about one day from completing a cycle (2ppm Ammonia cleared in less than half a day, Nitrites cleared in 25/26 hours), so I could potentially try and move him tomorrow. Is this possibly illness, or is he just stressed from bullying? Should I treat him with something?

Poor little guy. He's always been the shyest of my gouramis!

Here's parameters for the 29 gallon just to have them out there:

Ph 7.8
Amm 0
Nitrite 0
Nitrates 5 to 10ppm
GH around 6 dGH
KH around 10 dKH

The fourth honey, a female, was added a few weeks ago after a 6 week quarantine through 3 rounds of levamisole and 2 rounds of general cure.

Everyone else is active and doing just fine. He's just acting... more reclusive than usual. I've had him for almost 9 months now and this is the first sign of him withdrawing even further.

[Colu]

As he started to hide after you add the other female it's more than likely bullying if you have the option to move him to another tank I would and monitor closely for a week to see if he starts come out for food and his behaviour returns to normal

[laritheloud]

On 12/31/2021 at 4:45 PM, Colu said:

As he started to hide after you add the other female it's more than likely bullying if you have the option to move him to another tank I would and monitor closely for a week to see if he starts come out for food and his behaviour returns to normal

Yeah, that's what I'm thinking. I'll move him to the 20 tomorrow.

[andieb]

@laritheloud maybe the submissive honey gourami went into hiding because there's no way to swim away and escape when he's constantly chased. In the wild, he might have swam away and ended up in a different group where he fits in a bit higher up the pecking order. 

Is the 20 gallon that you're cycling for a specific purpose? If he improved once he's by himself, maybe you could keep him in there? You could move which ever female is more submissive into the 20 gal too and see if the two shyer ones coexist better. 

I feel like the things that influence hierarchy and aggression are transient - like who's in breeding mode, who's paired off, who's just joined the group etc. Like maybe the addition of the new female made the more dominant male even more motivated to chase off rivals - but in a tank the rival has no where to go, he's stuck. So maybe the submissive male is in a state of "learned helplessness" cause he can't do anything without getting chased and he can't escape either so he's just hiding.

I have a hunch that to some extent, the submissive behaviour (sneaking around and running away when confronted) actually triggers the dominant one to chase. I've noticed when my fish have a stand-off, one or both will flair and do a mock lunge, if both stand their ground they'll slowly turn to the side or swim past slowly, and the stand off ends peacefully. But if one of the fish turns and runs from the mock lunge, the aggressor will start chasing him. So potentially, if you take your submissive male, or better yet, the dominant male, and move him into the 20 gallon for as long as you can - like a month or two - it'll give your submissive male time to break out of his submission pattern of behaviour. And if the submissive guy has the two females and the territory to himself, it might help him build up some fish testosterone or confidence so that when you add the original dominant male back in the two males might be on more equal footing. I have no idea how honey gourami hierarchy works - this is just guessing. 

 

[laritheloud]

On 12/31/2021 at 8:46 PM, andieb said:

@laritheloud maybe the submissive honey gourami went into hiding because there's no way to swim away and escape when he's constantly chased. In the wild, he might have swam away and ended up in a different group where he fits in a bit higher up the pecking order. 

Is the 20 gallon that you're cycling for a specific purpose? If he improved once he's by himself, maybe you could keep him in there? You could move which ever female is more submissive into the 20 gal too and see if the two shyer ones coexist better. 

I feel like the things that influence hierarchy and aggression are transient - like who's in breeding mode, who's paired off, who's just joined the group etc. Like maybe the addition of the new female made the more dominant male even more motivated to chase off rivals - but in a tank the rival has no where to go, he's stuck. So maybe the submissive male is in a state of "learned helplessness" cause he can't do anything without getting chased and he can't escape either so he's just hiding.

I have a hunch that to some extent, the submissive behaviour (sneaking around and running away when confronted) actually triggers the dominant one to chase. I've noticed when my fish have a stand-off, one or both will flair and do a mock lunge, if both stand their ground they'll slowly turn to the side or swim past slowly, and the stand off ends peacefully. But if one of the fish turns and runs from the mock lunge, the aggressor will start chasing him. So potentially, if you take your submissive male, or better yet, the dominant male, and move him into the 20 gallon for as long as you can - like a month or two - it'll give your submissive male time to break out of his submission pattern of behaviour. And if the submissive guy has the two females and the territory to himself, it might help him build up some fish testosterone or confidence so that when you add the original dominant male back in the two males might be on more equal footing. I have no idea how honey gourami hierarchy works - this is just guessing. 

 

I was going to use my 20 gallon as the new quarantine tank for my 55 gallon tank! I think moving him to the 20 is definitely the way to go. It's planted up, I'm pretty sure it's cycled enough for him, and it'll leave him a chance to chill out and regain his confidence. He was always the milder fish out of the two males, and my gold male honey is SO dominant that he chases pretty much every other gourami in the tank. The two females take it in stride and go about their business, but this poor boy has gotten more reclusive over time. I saw him try to venture out this evening and he got chased back into hiding by my other male, so I'm reasonably certain that's what's causing his troubles. 

Tomorrow I'll do a big water change on the 20 and move him over. I was planning on quarantining a young pleco in there for my 55 gallon, but I could always hold it off while I observe this little dude and decide where to keep him long term (even if it's as a quarantine buddy, though I fear the coming and going and the potential spread of infection/meds). I'm glad I have the flexibility to move him around!

I don't think moving the dominant male will change things, though. I had my wild type male and small gold female the longest, and the dominant male was a later addition, before I realized my submissive male was actually male. I think I'm better off moving the submissive guy to recoup.

[laritheloud]

Here he is, by the way! Finally out with my wild type female after hiding all day, poor thing. I’ll move him soon ❤️

[xXInkedPhoenixX]

Aww, poor little guy. 🥰

[andieb]

Awe poor guy. I wish we could trade males because I have a really timid female and two very boisterous males that scare her

[laritheloud]

False alarm, maybe! My little boy was out in the feeding frenzy today and hasn't gone back in hiding at all. 🤷‍♀️ My 20 gallon needs another day or two so I'll continue to observe closely.