Plot thickens: ulcers, lateral line involvement, white spots, nodules, sunken spine--ember tetras,pygmy hatchetfish, pygmy corydora, celestial pearl danio

[VernalPool]

On the morning of 11/25/21, I found one of my pygmy hatchetfish trapped between a coarse filter and the aquarium wall.  Upon releasing it, he(?) no longer had use of one of its pectoral fins and sunk head down into some hairgrass but was still breathing.  Not expecting it to survive, I dimmed the lights and watched while it made occasional attempts to swim that day.  It eventually spent most of its time resting on the bottom of the tank near the heater.  Surprisingly, it regained use of the pectoral fin and was eating by evening though swimming still appeared to take some effort. 

This morning (11/26/21) all appeared well, but upon closer examination this afternoon serious damage to his tail is apparent.  There is what I believe is a bacterial infection of his peduncle (white fuzzy growth with a vertical thin bloody band between the growth and his body) and his caudal and anal fins are frayed.  He has some use of his tail but is definitely using his body more than the other two hatchets to move through the water.  He’s currently staying near the surface of the tank.

I would appreciate some advice on the best treatment, if one is possible.  I am preparing a 5 gl quarantine tank now with RO water, cycled ACO nano sponge filter, and Fluval 25 wt heater (preset 76-78F) and will be transferring the pygmy hatchet over yet this evening.  He’ll be the only occupant of the tank.

I have the following treatment options immediately available to me:  Maracyn, KanaPlex, Furan-2, Ich-X, API Stress Coat+, API Stress Zyme+, and API aquarium salt. 

I expect the quarantine tank parameters in quarantine to be 0 ammonia/nitrate/nitrite and very low GH, KH, and pH due to the RO water.  On his current tank, the parameters on 11/20/21 were 0 ammonia, 10 nitrate, 0 nitrite, 10 dKH GH, 2 dKH KH, 7.6 pH, and 0 chlorine.  Today (11/26/21), I was just starting to retest the parameters and only got as far as ammonia which is .25. 

I am using the RO water I had set aside for today's water change to fill the quarantine tank so I'll treat the ammonia in the nano tank with prime today to tide that over if my RO system doesn't recharge fast enough. 

How can I best help this little guy?

Here's a photo of the injury.

[xXInkedPhoenixX]

Hi, welcome to the forum! Poor little Hatchet! If I were in your shoes the most important thing for an injured fish is very very clean water. The concern here is bacterial infections from the wounds. This can be mitigated with aquarium salt, dose QT tank accordingly, if doing water changes you I'm sure know to dose salt only according to how much water you changed. Monitor and hopefully they will heal fine. If they show signs of other illness (fungus etc) then you can treat accordingly.

Also to avoid further incidents (you may have done this) make sure there is enough clearance between filters/rocks/decor and aquarium wall for all of your fish to safely pass through.   

Edited November 27, 2021 by xXInkedPhoenixX
to clarify

[xXInkedPhoenixX]

If you think they might  need a little help staying at the top of the tank consider putting them in a floating breeder or similar in your QT tank until he swims a little better. 

[VernalPool]

On 11/26/2021 at 6:21 PM, xXInkedPhoenixX said:

Hi, welcome to the forum! Poor little Hatchet! If I were in your shoes the most important thing for an injured fish is very very clean water. The concern here is bacterial infections from the wounds. This can be mitigated with aquarium salt, dose QT tank accordingly, if doing water changes you I'm sure know to dose salt only according to how much water you changed. Monitor and hopefully they will heal fine. If they show signs of other illness (fungus etc) then you can treat accordingly.

Also to avoid further incidents (you may have done this) make sure there is enough clearance between filters/rocks/decor and aquarium wall for all of your fish to safely pass through.   

Thank you @xXInkedPhoenixX!  I will dissolve 1 heaping tablespoon of aquarium salt into the hospital tank water before I move him over.  I'm concerned that the fuzziness at the injury site already indicates a bacterial infection underway, but I am new to this.  Do you think he looks infected in the photo?  (I added the photo shortly after I posted.)

Unfortunately, the coarse filter was for the temporary protection of the hatchetfish.  I had a Cobalt Clearvue mini internal filter in this tank and the flow was too much for the hatchets.  I slipped a small ACO sponge filter over the top of it to cover the outflow until I could swap it with a cycled ACO nano sponge filter.  So bummed the little guy found a way to wedge himself behind there--I could have sworn it wasn't possible.

On 11/26/2021 at 6:28 PM, xXInkedPhoenixX said:

If you think they might  need a little help staying at the top of the tank consider putting them in a floating breeder or similar in your QT tank until he swims a little better. 

Great idea--thank you!

[xXInkedPhoenixX]

 The salt will help keep any bacterial infection at bay. I didn't see any fuzz/fungus on your pic at first but on second look there might be some. You can stick with the salt but if you think meds are needed- Aquarium Co-op recommends edited:Ich X (previously recommended Maracyn but is better for fungus that is columnaris related

here is the AC page: 

https://www.aquariumcoop.com/blogs/aquarium/fish-fungus

Edited November 27, 2021 by xXInkedPhoenixX
whoops! my bad!

[Colu]

The Fuzziness could be the start of fungal infection I would treat with ick x as that treats fungal infections  and some aquarium salt 1 table spoon for 5 gallons that will help with Gill function and add essential electrolytes to help reduce stress in your fish just remember to only put the amount of salt back in that you take out if you do a 5 gallon water change put one table spoon of salt back in

[VernalPool]

On 11/26/2021 at 6:47 PM, Colu said:

The Fuzziness could be the start of fungal infection I would treat with ick x as that treats fungal infections  and some aquarium salt 1 table spoon for 5 gallons that will help with Gill function and add essential electrolytes to help reduce stress in your fish just remember to only put the amount of salt back in that you take out if you do a 5 gallon water change put one table spoon of salt back in

@ColuPrior to seeing your advice, I had already treated the hospital tank with Maracyn and 1 T of aquarium salt.  I've been acclimating the hatchet to the water but he is still in the specimen container at this point.  Would you advise that I add the Ich-X to that and simply not add further Maracyn?  Or would I be better off draining the hospital tank and starting over?

On 11/26/2021 at 6:47 PM, Colu said:

The Fuzziness could be the start of fungal infection I would treat with ick x as that treats fungal infections  and some aquarium salt 1 table spoon for 5 gallons that will help with Gill function and add essential electrolytes to help reduce stress in your fish just remember to only put the amount of salt back in that you take out if you do a 5 gallon water change put one table spoon of salt back in

@ColuPrior to seeing your advice, I had already treated the hospital tank with Maracyn and 1 T of aquarium salt.  I've been acclimating the hatchet to the water but he is still in the specimen container at this point.  Would you advise that I add the Ich-X to the meds already in the tank and simply not add further Maracyn?  Or would I be better off draining the hospital tank and starting over?  (*"that" edited to clarify I meant the hospital tank and not the specimen container)

[xXInkedPhoenixX]

Per the Aquarium Co-Op page they can be used together. but you can absolutely follow @Colu's advice and drain the tank if you're comfortable with that. 

[Colu]

If you have already add the maracyn I would just add the ick x with the maracyn as ick x requires daily water changes the maracyn will be removed in a day or two anyway keep treating with ick x and salt

[xXInkedPhoenixX]

I agree with Colu,  and totally my bad I had missed the "mouth" fungus/columnaris for maracyn. Won't hurt lil hatchet to leave it in as Colu said and just add in the Ich-X. My apologies!

[VernalPool]

On 11/26/2021 at 8:29 PM, xXInkedPhoenixX said:

I agree with Colu,  and totally my bad I had missed the "mouth" fungus/columnaris for maracyn. Won't hurt lil hatchet to leave it in as Colu said and just add in the Ich-X. My apologies!

On 11/26/2021 at 8:29 PM, xXInkedPhoenixX said:

I agree with Colu,  and totally my bad I had missed the "mouth" fungus/columnaris for maracyn. Won't hurt lil hatchet to leave it in as Colu said and just add in the Ich-X. My apologies!

On 11/26/2021 at 6:47 PM, Colu said:

The Fuzziness could be the start of fungal infection I would treat with ick x as that treats fungal infections  and some aquarium salt 1 table spoon for 5 gallons that will help with Gill function and add essential electrolytes to help reduce stress in your fish just remember to only put the amount of salt back in that you take out if you do a 5 gallon water change put one table spoon of salt back in

@ColuPrior to seeing your advice, I had already treated the hospital tank with Maracyn and 1 T of aquarium salt.  I've been acclimating the hatchet to the water but he is still in the specimen container at this point.  Would you advise that I add the Ich-X to the meds already in the tank and simply not add further Maracyn?  Or would I be better off draining the hospital tank and starting over?  (*"that" edited to clarify I meant the hospital tank and not the specimen container)

@xXInkedPhoenixX@Colu  Thank you both for your help and time, on a holiday weekend night no less!  I decided to go ahead and drain the hospital tank and medicate with only Ich-X and aquarium salt as I have the time and the water.  x XinkedPhoenixX, no worries--this was a very, very helpful learning experience for me.  Hopefully, I'll be able to post an "all better now" picture in the near future.  : )

[xXInkedPhoenixX]

I hope so too!

[VernalPool]

On 11/26/2021 at 8:29 PM, xXInkedPhoenixX said:

I agree with Colu,  and totally my bad I had missed the "mouth" fungus/columnaris for maracyn. Won't hurt lil hatchet to leave it in as Colu said and just add in the Ich-X. My apologies!

On 11/26/2021 at 8:29 PM, xXInkedPhoenixX said:

I agree with Colu,  and totally my bad I had missed the "mouth" fungus/columnaris for maracyn. Won't hurt lil hatchet to leave it in as Colu said and just add in the Ich-X. My apologies!

On 11/26/2021 at 6:47 PM, Colu said:

The Fuzziness could be the start of fungal infection I would treat with ick x as that treats fungal infections  and some aquarium salt 1 table spoon for 5 gallons that will help with Gill function and add essential electrolytes to help reduce stress in your fish just remember to only put the amount of salt back in that you take out if you do a 5 gallon water change put one table spoon of salt back in

@ColuPrior to seeing your advice, I had already treated the hospital tank with Maracyn and 1 T of aquarium salt.  I've been acclimating the hatchet to the water but he is still in the specimen container at this point.  Would you advise that I add the Ich-X to the meds already in the tank and simply not add further Maracyn?  Or would I be better off draining the hospital tank and starting over?  (*"that" edited to clarify I meant the hospital tank and not the specimen container)

@xXInkedPhoenixX@Colu  Thank you both for your help and time, on a holiday weekend night no less!  I decided to go ahead and drain the hospital tank and medicate with only Ich-X and aquarium salt as I have the time and the water.  x XinkedPhoenixX, no worries--this was a very, very helpful learning experience for me.  Hopefully, I'll be able to post an "all better now" picture in the near future.  : )

11/27/21 UPDATE & NEWLY SPOTTED FISH INJURY:  This morning I found that the pygmy hatchetfish did not survive the night in the hospital tank but, interestingly, the fungus was gone.  However, I noticed that in the 8 gl nano tank one of my two Celestial Pearl Danios (CPD) had the same or similar injury/issue that would have occurred around the same time. 

I'm now beginning to suspect that these two fish were attacked by my smallest male ember tetra.  I know, I know--ember tetras are reputably a peaceful fish and that is why they are tank mates.  However, I have seen a particular ember male chasing the CPD's and other embers and trying to take nips.  I suspect now that he went after the pygmy hatchetfish while the hatchet was recuperating from getting his front half stuck between the filter and the wall (filter since replaced and new one out from wall).  I did not see any type of tail injury on the hatchet until the following day but I am open to the idea I overlooked something or even that the injured/deceased hatchet was not the hatchet that was stuck--I have two little males(?) that look exactly the same.

I looked back in my pictures from 11/25/21 and saw a tiny injury I overlooked on the CPD on that date.  I've attached that pic, two taken of the same fish today (each side), and I'm reposting the pic of the now deceased pygmy hatchet.

The CPD is now in the 5 gl hospital tank with 1 T aquarium salt and dosed with Ich-X.

The nano tank (main tank) parameters are:  0.25 ammonia as of 11/26/21 eve (dosed with Prime last night and 15% water change this morning) and prior to water change today with ACO test strip (11/27/21):  nitrate 10, nitrite 0, hardness 300, buffer 20, pH 6.4, and chlorine 0.  When I use API test kits a few of the parameters are consistently different than these same ACO numbers--typically hardness 179 ppm/10 dKH, buffer 35.8 ppm/2 dKH, and pH 7.6.  Temperature in the nano tank ranges from 73-75; I just reset the thermometer down to 72.

This planted tank was first set up on 9/26/21 and underwent a fishless cycle.  Plants are really just starting to get established; there are many but mostly small.  All fish in the tank were quarantined together starting in early October on the ACO trio and had a 2nd round of Paracleanse before being placed into the nano tank last weekend.  Tank occupants:  3 pygmy hatchetfish (now only 2); 2 celestial pearl danios; 6 ember tetras, 2 pygmy corydoras, 2 Amano shrimp, and 1 clithon corona (horned nerite) snail.  I did lose green neons in quarantine to what I suspected was neon tetra disease and an oto with cysts that didn't respond to medication, as well as an ember tetra that had a similar cyst cropped up.  All the remainders have looked healthy since the start of November 2021.  All fish were purchased as very small juveniles.

Do the CPD pics support my theory that these injuries are likely fish attacks?  Or am I dealing with something else?  Two separate issues?

[xXInkedPhoenixX]

Wow! Mystery! 

I'm thinking you might be dealing with something other than nipping but that's only a guess on my part. The CPD doesn't appear to have had its fins nipped and that's a weird place to have an injury unless of course like you said it got stuck like the Hatchet, it's possible- but strange it's in the same place for both of them. 

What I'm wondering is...it's an 8 gallon tank, you did a fishless cycle but you say everyone was QT at once were they all put in the tank at once after cycling? I ask because maybe with the ammonia readings it did something to your cycle? Or have you been able to take inventory and spot all your inhabitants? Could something be rotting in the tank? 

I'm going to leave the illness speculation to @Colu because I'm really not sure if it's injury or illness but it is very interesting. Something is up. 

[Colu]

Looking at the pictures it could be an injury or bacterial infection I would keep treating with salt and ick x for now if he gets worse then a would do a course of kanaplex or maracyn

[VernalPool]

On 11/27/2021 at 5:41 PM, Colu said:

Looking at the pictures it could be an injury or bacterial infection I would keep treating with salt and ick x for now if he gets worse then a would do a course of kanaplex or maracyn

@Colu@xXInkedPhoenixX More symptoms have shown up in the tank.  Small white bumps have appeared on some of the ember tetras.  The final 2 pics are different views of the same fish.  I'm not sure if this is yet another issue or how the problem began with the pygmy hatchetfish and/or the celestial pearl danio.

Both the CPD and the pygmy hatchet died shortly after going into the hospital tank, quickly losing their ability to swim.  I'm not sure if the stress of the move put them over the edge.  Hospital tank parameters are nitrates 0, nitrites 0, GH 25, buffer 40, pH 6.4, and chlorine 0.  I did not test for ammonia because it was fresh RO water as of last night.

All surviving parties in the nano tank are accounted for:  2 pygmy hatchetfish, 6 ember tetras, 1 celestial pearl danio, 2 pygmy corydoras, 2 Amano shrimp, and1 clithano corona snail. 

I'm going to give more background about the initial quarantine when I purchased the fish as it may be more pertinent than I realized.  (I am SO new to this.) 

Once quarantine was completed, all fish (purchased at same time from LFS) were added to the cycled tank it already contained the Amano shrimp that had been present for weeks and the very recently arrived clithon corona (horned nerite snail).  I had the snails directly to the nano tank after acclimating after receiving mail order.  One snail was disposed of after not moving after 48 hours per vendor instructions.  A second snail was initially active but stopped moving after 24-36 hrs and was disposed of after not moving for 48 hrs.  The fish were not added until a week after the second dead snail was removed from the tank.

While the fish were in there initial quarantine, they did have an otocinclus with them that I euthanized after he had nodules that did not respond to treatment.  The quarantine tank did have a few green neons that died or were euthanized after what I ultimately decided was most likely neon tetra disease. 

As I mentioned earlier, all fish in the initial quarantine tank were treated with ACO trio (Maracyn, ParaCleanse, Ich-X).  When the oto got sick, I took pics to the LFS where I purchased all the fish and was told they 'really don't do that' but pointed me to the medication section.  When the green neons got sick immediately following the oto, I dosed with KanaPlex and Furan-2 as I suspected the green neons had columnaris.  On Day 5 of the columnaris treatment I did not do the final dose of KanaPlex and Furan-2 as I figured out it was neon tetra disease.  *Failing to do the final dose was also probably a mistake but I was concerned about dosing meds they didn't need.

Clearly my biggest mistakes were purchasing ALL my fish at the same time as they likely passed disease between them and failing to quarantine the snails.  All fish did have a 2nd round of ParaCleanse after the otocinclus was euthanized. 

The 2 Amano shrimp and 1 snail have had no treatment.

The dots currently on the ember tetras do not look like the nodules that were on the oto. 

In addition to Maracyn, KanaPlex, Furan-2, Ich-X, API Stress Coat+, API Stress Zyme+, and API aquarium salt, I have the following parasite medication on hand:  Fritz Coppersafe, Fritz Expel-P, and ParaCleanse. 

If it can be safely and effectively done for the occupants and plants, I would like to treat the nano tank at this point. 

I'm starting to feel like the grim reaper.  I apologize if there are duplicates of the pics, I'm still learning how to use the forum.

Edit:  I began with 3 snails.

Edit: "their initial quarantine"  🙄

[Brandon p]

Hemorrhagic Septicemia

[xXInkedPhoenixX]

We all make mistakes that's for sure. I'll admit to having added too many fish at one time when I started in the hobby to a recently cycled tank, it caused an outbreak of Ich and my cycle ended up restarting. Everyone made it through treatment but it didn't make me feel any less bad about doing what I did. But neither you nor I had intentions of causing harm- we just didn't know better. 

The snail is probably not a QT problem- most people don't QT them or shrimp. You might need to make sure any meds you put in the Nano be invert safe. I cannot tell from your pics what the white spots look like but if it looks like the white spots on the Oto pic I'll attach to this post then it's likely Ich. 

Ich x is not safe for all inverts per the company but I think some have used it with shrimp however I can't speak to that.  So you might consider pulling your shrimp and snail OR pull all the fish into the hospital tank. If you choose to QT your shrimp/snail in the hospital tank I'd recommend putting a plant/rock some things from your tank for them- the shrimp will need the stability but the snail should be fine. (I have snails in QT right now because I'm treating a tank). But maybe someone can speak to whether they'd be ok with the IchX in the tank. I just pull my snails out of an abundance of caution. Maybe @Colu can speak to that. 

 

[xXInkedPhoenixX]

It very well can be what @Brandon p says it is as the "wounds" look more like what internet pictures depict. You have options for treatment- some is soaking food in medication. See the information site I found on causes and treatment, along with pic:

https://tropical-fish-keeping.com/tag/sepsis

[VernalPool]

@Brandon p@xXInkedPhoenixX If it is indeed hemorrahagic sepsi the issue looks incredibly daunting, particularly because the water column would be involved.  Since heat seems to dampen it, I've started to increase the heat in the tank.  Now I am going to the big box store to round up some more med options and aquarium salt.  

@Colu If you have a treatment regime recommendation, I would appreciate it. 

My logistics plan is to a) move all fish to the hospital tank; b) move inverts to a temporary tank; and c) figure out how to treat the water column in the planted nano tank. 

[VernalPool]

@Brandon p@xXInkedPhoenixX If it is indeed hemorrahagic sepsi the issue looks incredibly daunting, particularly because the water column would be involved.  Since heat seems to dampen it, I've started to increase the heat in the tank.  Now I am going to the big box store to round up some more med options and aquarium salt.  

Edit:  Yes, the spots look like ich on the oto pic, just not as many spots.

@Colu If you have a treatment regime recommendation, I would appreciate it. 

My logistics plan is to a) move all fish to the hospital tank; b) move inverts to a temporary tank; and c) figure out how to treat the water column in the planted nano tank. 

 

[xXInkedPhoenixX]

It's above my paygrade at this point sadly, there are so many things that can be going on and I can see where you'd be daunted. I'd focus on treating what is the most likely dianosis and consider treating with more than one med (hopefully Colu will pipe in with what might work best). Expect that you may lose more fish, which really sucks but I'm really crossing my fingers for you. Please keep us updated. 

[Colu]

It could be the start of neon tetra disease as they have been exposed to inflected fish  fish can have the disease for along time and not show symptoms  until they get stressed weakening the immune system  it's also possible it bacterial infection I would treat with kanaplex in food and furan2 to treat  the water column together they provide a broad spectrum antibiotic treatment

[VernalPool]

@Colu@xXInkedPhoenixX@Brandon p Many thanks for your time, advice, and knowledge--sharing information that likely involves a hard, sad outlook can never be fun.  This morning I will start the Furan-2 in the nano tank and, as soon as the LFS opens, will go purchase the Focus and Entice or Garlic Guard so I can start the medicated feedings.  The illness is definitely advancing among the inhabitants.

Not to be morbid, but assuming I have a fresh corpse during a weekday, I'll see about getting my vet to culture it to determine what exactly I am dealing with.  I will keep you and the rest of the CARE community up-to-date on what transpires.

[VernalPool]

Furan-2 was added to the water this morning (11/28/21) but the fish continue to rapidly deteriorate.  If it wasn’t for being able to take pictures and blow them up, I’m not even sure I’d know something was wrong yet on these little nano fish.  I’m including photos of today's disease progression.  There is Furan-2 in the tank with just an airstone so the water is a bit yellow.  The fish will receive their first medicated feeding this evening.  

I am writing this with as much detail as I can in hopes of some more answers, but also to document disease progression as I know how invaluable the pictures and information from others here on the CARE forum have been to me.  Bless you all and, particularly @Cory for having the vision to create this community and hire such astounding staff! 

Here is one of the surviving hatchetfish.  Notice the dark line outlining its sternum and the darkness of its inner organs.  That was also present in the Patient 0, the original hatchetfish that died.  You can see it on the first pic in this thread; I totally missed that change.  Given that the hatchets are conveniently transparent and I’m not knowledgeable on fish innards, perhaps there are some more clues inside that I am missing.

The surviving CPD has a sunken area behind its head and its spine is also sunken.  You can also see this in the center fish in the group of ember tetras.  At least one of the pygmy corydoras appears to have a disruption in its lateral line right above the pectoral fin.  One of the corys also may have a small node on its belly but I can never get a good look. 

I realize this is a symptom or condition and not a disease, but would you say these photos are consistent with canal neuromast inflammation?  I’m working on learning to recognize these things. I learned that it is most prevalent in cichlids but they seem to have the hallmarks.  The final pic in this post has a very good close-up.  

I am suspecting that the move from the quarantine tank to the nano tank set off the dormant neon tetra disease, if that is indeed what this is, or maybe disease was already brewing and I didn’t see it because these fish are so very very small.  

The final three photos are the most detailed.  The sun was low in the sky for a few minutes so it lit up the ember tetras nicely.  The first pic shows a group of ember tetras in various stages of disease progression.  The second pic shows how the white spots near the eyes of the fish are ulcerating.  It appears the fish's eyes are starting to protrude.  The final picture is the most detailed of all (but all pics lost resolution, sorry)—pay particular attention to the sparkles along the lateral line and abdomen. 

A couple other details:  you can see that some of the fish are outlined along the top or top and bottom with white and a couple fish have some type of growth by their lips—easiest to see in the CPD photo.  One strange thing I noticed was that as I noticed this illness begin the abdomens of some of the ember tetras took on a greenish cast (see 2nd to last photo).

 

@Colu@xXInkedPhoenixX@Brandon p and others with expertise, please let me know if you think this presentation is still consistent with neon tetra disease?  Should I be concerned that this may be fish TB (mycobacteriosis)?  Any new theories?

 

If I do lose or need to euthanize all of the fish, is there a realistic and safe was to use this planted tank with its nerite and Amanos to also house fish again to eliminate the possibility of reinfection of future fish?